Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

there are very few universally loved JW scores, anyway.

Perhaps, but this one sharply divides people

this one, and KOTCs, and Geisha, and etc.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

KOCS yes, Geisha....not so much!

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

KOCS yes, Geisha....not so much!

really?

[Richard Penna 3,686]

Well I don't see many people lamenting Geisha, whereas KotCS has split this place like no other score I've seen.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

3.5 stars. Says it all really.

Well I don't see many people lamenting Geisha, whereas KotCS has split this place like no other score I've seen.

Geisha was a pretty weak score by Williams' standards IMO. That one gets a 3 from me. The main theme is awful. Considering Geisha was supposed to be Williams' pet project I'm amazed at his apparent lack of inspiration. Of course it has some nice moments (hence it doesn't get less than 3), but it sounds like lazy writing to me.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Since when does a 3 indicate something is bad?

[Datameister 2,042]

Since when does a 3 indicate something is bad?

In my experience, a 3 indicates that something is very mediocre, with few redeeming qualities, but few truly offensive ones as well.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Since when does a 3 indicate something is bad?

In my experience, a 3 indicates that something is very mediocre, with few redeeming qualities, but few truly offensive ones as well.

I find 2.5 to be an average score that serves its purpose without a hitch with perhaps a sprinkle of re-listenablity in some cues, anything below that isn't all that impressive. A 3 is pretty good, usually adequate with a few standout cues. 3.5 is a bit better. 4 is bloody good, but doesn't fulfill the requirements of a classic, but it's overall solid and effective. 4.5 is almost great. 5 is reserved only for magnificent masterpieces that may be technically, melodically, and emotionally unmatched, as well as working perfectly both on CD and on film. It has to be something unique and extremely special. This is a problem for people who overrate scores that are just pretty good to about a 4.5 or even a 5 because they can't bear to give those scores a rating any lower lest they hurt that score's feelings, then they have no idea how to rate the truly great ones, so then they moan and groan for great scores to be rated 6 out of 5, which is ridiculous.

Going backwards, a 2 is for something mediocre and mostly boring. 1.5 is pathetic in its occasional unlistenability, but with that .5, there's still hope. 1 is for drink coasters.

[Richard Penna 3,686]

3.5 stars. Says it all really.

Well I don't see many people lamenting Geisha, whereas KotCS has split this place like no other score I've seen.

Geisha was a pretty weak score by Williams' standards IMO. That one gets a 3 from me. The main theme is awful. Considering Geisha was supposed to be Williams' pet project I'm amazed at his apparent lack of inspiration. Of course it has some nice moments (hence it doesn't get less than 3), but it sounds like lazy writing to me.

Really? I'd say the exact opposite actually - I just don't appreciate the classical/oriental style of it, maybe 5 or 6 cues.

[Henry B 50]

I think Williams was pretty damn inspired by Geisha. He expressed interest in scoring it and was involved early on, he studied Japanese music, he collaborated with world class soloists, he did duets with Yo-Yo Ma after the film's release, he ran a strong Oscar campaign... So, yeah, I think it's fairly evident he enjoyed writing it. Whether one enjoys listening is a different matter. Williams has certainly become more introverted and personal in his writing, often at the expense of accessibility.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

Though I have yet to listen to the score (sorry, Taikomochi), I have watched the DVD featurette, and I was very impressed with the exotic instrumentation that John Williams employed. My older sister listened to it last year from the library, and practically begged me to purchase it, which I consider a very good thing, as she listens almost exclusively to... "J-Pop", is it called? Also, she is the kind of person to look at my entire John Williams collection and immediately dismiss every single album except for Schindler's List, labeling it "the best one". Sometimes I want to do mean things to my sister....

[Red 75]

He gave up Harry Potter to do it, Memoirs of a Geisha I mean.

[Taikomochi 1,136]

He gave up Harry Potter to do it, Memoirs of a Geisha I mean.

And thank god!

[King Mark 3,631]

I think Williams was pretty damn inspired by Geisha. He expressed interest in scoring it and was involved early on, he studied Japanese music, he collaborated with world class soloists, he did duets with Yo-Yo Ma after the film's release, he ran a strong Oscar campaign... So, yeah, I think it's fairly evident he enjoyed writing it. Whether one enjoys listening is a different matter. Williams has certainly become more introverted and personal in his writing, often at the expense of accessibility.

i agree with Pixie .Sayuri's Theme isn't a very good theme by Williams standards

[pixie_twinkle 48]

Since when does a 3 indicate something is bad?

I never said it was bad. I said it was a pretty weak score "by Williams' standards". I don't think there's a single score by Williams I'd give less than a 2.5 to. Even his weaker scores have good music.

I think Williams was pretty damn inspired by Geisha. He expressed interest in scoring it and was involved early on, he studied Japanese music, he collaborated with world class soloists, he did duets with Yo-Yo Ma after the film's release, he ran a strong Oscar campaign... So, yeah, I think it's fairly evident he enjoyed writing it. Whether one enjoys listening is a different matter. Williams has certainly become more introverted and personal in his writing, often at the expense of accessibility.

And yet I find his use of Japanese musical styles to be much more interesting in his 1968 flute concerto than MOAG.

[indy4 155]

JW ran an Oscar campaign???

[Taikomochi 1,136]

I don't know how you run an Oscar campaign.

[arathornion33 0]

*****Five Stars***** Love this score. Love the trumpet writing.

[Williamsfan301 11]

I don't know how you run an Oscar campaign.

You get the Governor of Illinois to help buy the Oscar for you...

[Nick Parker 3,040]

I find that post humorous.

[Incanus 5,714]

5 stars. My favourite of the Prequel scores.

[Henry B 50]

JW ran an Oscar campaign???

That is to say he got a lot of publicity for the score, e.g. going on The Tonight Show, I believe, with Yo-Yo Ma. There was some talk around here that Williams was really gunning for an Oscar.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

i think he was.

Damned Santaolalala

[Incanus 5,714]

Perhaps most people thought JW seemed a little too needy to deserve another Oscar when he went on his campaign for it

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

i think he was.

Damned Santaolalala

No damn Munich for splitting the Williams vote.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

i think he was.

Damned Santaolalala

No damn Munich for splitting the Williams vote.

Damn Spielberg then.

But then Star Wars has an oscar.

Damn Santaolalala.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Star Wars needed less help then Memoirs.

Williams was clearly backing Memoirs and not Munich!

[King Mark 3,631]

why didn't he withhold Munich from nomination?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I'm not sure he even can.

[indy4 155]

JW ran an Oscar campaign???

That is to say he got a lot of publicity for the score, e.g. going on The Tonight Show, I believe, with Yo-Yo Ma. There was some talk around here that Williams was really gunning for an Oscar.

Ah, I see. This makes it all the more tragic that he lost.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

oh all of JW's Oscar losing scores this one (MoaG) didn't bother me as much

[Koray Savas 2,251]

i think he was.

Damned Santaolalala

No damn Munich for splitting the Williams vote.

Munich should have won.

Brokeback Mountain and Babel have to be some of the worst scores ever to win Oscars. Like, seriously. The last good score to win an Oscar was Return Of The King. They better not give it to Rahman this year.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Munich shouldn't have even been nominated, its mediocre at best. Avner's theme is ripe with false sentiment.

[Taikomochi 1,136]

I'm not sure he even can.

I think he did for AotC, although I doubt that was necessary.

i think he was.

Damned Santaolalala

Don't worry; I've implemented a plan that shall end the Santaolalla menace permanently!

*snickers evilly*

[Nick Parker 3,040]

....

So, upon listening to the album again, I find that I am very partial to "Immolation Scene". I am also starting to think that "Palpatine's Teaching" is not so boring.

[Datameister 2,042]

So, upon listening to the album again, I find that I am very partial to "Immolation Scene".

I like it as well. Truly a haunting piece, particularly in the context of the film (and in the context of my life around the time the film came out).

I am also starting to think that "Palpatine's Teaching" is not so boring.

Could be worse, but the sad thing is...the most interesting parts of that scene's score are omitted! The preceding cue transitions rather interestingly (albeit simply) into it, and there's material toward the end of Anakin and Palpatine's conversation that I would love to have on the album. It's a pity that Williams isn't as humble about his album-producing abilities as he is about his music itself...

[Nick Parker 3,040]

I like it as well. Truly a haunting piece, particularly in the context of the film (and in the context of my life around the time the film came out).

I am sorry to hear that! You did not suffer tenth-degree burns as well, did you?

Oh, and I remeber those moments of underscore that you were talking about from the film. I agree, I was rather disappointed when I discovered it was not on the album.

[indy4 155]

Just listened to "Star Wars and the Revenge of the Sith." I love the opening, right after the theme, with those brass/snare drum exchanges. Sounds a lot like JW writing back to his original sound.

[Taikomochi 1,136]

I love when it goes into Grievous's motif. COming into that sort of suite action cue, it sounds a lot better than just on ts own.

That reminds me. Grievous' motif is AMAZING. The only part of the prequel trilogy scores I truly loved. I was sort of a Grievous fanboy leading up to episode III, so when I heard his motif on the big screen, I got itters. It fits the character so well. I just wish Williams had expanded on it, maybe used it for the duel scene instead of just a choirless "Grievous Speaks to Lord Sidious".

[Datameister 2,042]

I, too, have a VERY soft spot for Grievous's theme/motif. It has a plodding and menacing nature, but it's also a little...nonsensical. The phrases are a little hard to comprehend and put together into a whole at first. Which works wonderfully in this case. It's just a pity Williams didn't end up writing new scoring for the duel, like you said. I'm sure he would have if the CGI had been ready soon enough.

[Taikomochi 1,136]

Are there any uses of Grievous' theme besides the beginning of the duel, going to utapau, and his first appearance?

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

Munich shouldn't have even been nominated, its mediocre at best. Avner's theme is ripe with false sentiment.

How do you arbitrarily determine if a theme is 'ripe with false sentiment' or not?

[Datameister 2,042]

Taikomochi, unfortunately, there are only two uses of it in the score - when he is first introduced, and when he flies to Utapau. It's really quite a missed opportunity. It would have been nice to hear bits of it in the parts of the fight with Obi-Wan that JW did score, but he opted for two other motifs, one of which I like just as much as Grievous's theme. Heck, he could have used them both, as an A theme and a B theme! There could have been a concert arrangement and everything. I would have loved that.

How do you arbitrarily determine if a theme is 'ripe with false sentiment' or not?

If Joey feels the theme is ripe with false sentiment, it is. What's so hard to understand about that?

[Taikomochi 1,136]

Ah, a Grievous concert arrangement. That would have been great.

Could you give me an instance of the "B" theme. I'm sure I know it, but it's not coming to me now.

[Datameister 2,042]

Ah, a Grievous concert arrangement. That would have been great.

Could you give me an instance of the "B" theme. I'm sure I know it, but it's not coming to me now.

The melody I'm talking about is only used in the cue "Fighting with Grievous," which constitutes most of the last half of the track "General Grievous." My favorite statement is at 3:02, but it's used throughout that cue. 9-beat phrases in the trombones. Very menacing and appropriate to the character, even though it has a rather different feel from his actual theme. Maybe I'll try to arrange a full orchestral concert suite for Grievous one of these days...

[Taikomochi 1,136]

Sounds pretty similar to the main theme when I try to separate it, but it's very late here, so I can't think clearly. It's possibly a variation of the main theme or something, but, as I stated, I can't think clearly.

[Incanus 5,714]

There is another bad guy motif running alongside Grievous' march motif that is used to represent him and Palpatine's plan throughout the film.

Now that I think about it the Grievous' waltz time march is an elaboration on this motif. The action sequences involving Grievous also borrow this shorter motif which Williams fragments and varies cleverly. It is at the same time very mechanic as it repeats as does all the Grievous material but also very dynamic and ferocious. Very fitting for the character and Palpatine's plot.

The motif I am talking about is heard on numerous tracks on the OST.

Star Wars and The Revenge of the Sith (2;11-2;26, 5;35-5;43, 6;51-6;53),

General Grievous (0;06-0;37 shorter rhythmically truncated phrases and finally the horns and the trumpets repeat the motif, 2;20-2;50 the motif in a more mechanical rhythm, almost like the Imperial Walker music from ESB but a bit faster, 3;02-4;07 one clear and heavy statement and then fragments of the motif, just few notes, are repeated before the music goes again to the chase music.

Palpatine's Teachings (3;15-20 a few notes of the theme)

Grievous and the Droids (0;07-0;10 a fast and a bit truncated statement, 2;39-2;56 very prominent variation on the motif as Grievous escapes)

Grievous Speak to Lord Sidious (1;27-1;50 the clearest statement in the horns and trumpet repeating the motif several times)

One instance where this motif is heard outside the OST is:

Palpatine's Seduction 1;44-1;59 underneath the strings, 2;16-end with the choir and orchestra.

When Palpatine's plan has come to fruition and Grievous is dead the theme disappears as well.

[Datameister 2,042]

Sounds pretty similar to the main theme when I try to separate it, but it's very late here, so I can't think clearly. It's possibly a variation of the main theme or something, but, as I stated, I can't think clearly.

No, you're not thinking clearly. I mean, they both start with an interval of a minor third and generally have an oppressive and plodding sort of feel...but if you just look at the melodies, they're pretty unrelated. But they do have quite a similar feel to them, as I said, which is why I think they could work very well together in that theoretical concert arrangement.

[Josh500 1,615]

I can't help but give this 5 stars.

I'm not saying it's as good as the other Star Wars scores (neither am I denying this), but these kind of JW scores should rank among the very very best of ANY listing...

[Datameister 2,042]

There is another bad guy motif running alongside Grievous' march motif that is used to represent him and Palpatine's plan throughout the film.

Now that I think about it the Grievous' waltz time march is an elaboration on this motif. The action sequences involving Grievous also borrow this shorter motif which Williams fragments and varies cleverly. It is at the same time very mechanic as it repeats as does all the Grievous material but also very dynamic and ferocious. Very fitting for the character and Palpatine's plot.

The motif I am talking about is heard on numerous tracks on the OST.

Star Wars and The Revenge of the Sith (2;11-2;26, 5;35-5;43, 6;51-6;53),

General Grievous (0;06-0;37 shorter rhythmically truncated phrases and finally the horns and the trumpets repeat the motif, 2;20-2;50 the motif in a more mechanical rhythm, almost like the Imperial Walker music from ESB but a bit faster, 3;02-4;07 one clear and heavy statement and then fragments of the motif, just few notes, are repeated before the music goes again to the chase music.

Palpatine's Teachings (3;15-20 a few notes of the theme)

Grievous and the Droids (0;07-0;10 a fast and a bit truncated statement, 2;39-2;56 very prominent variation on the motif as Grievous escapes)

Grievous Speak to Lord Sidious (1;27-1;50 the clearest statement in the horns and trumpet repeating the motif several times)

One instance where this motif is heard outside the OST is:

Palpatine's Seduction 1;44-1;59 underneath the strings, 2;16-end with the choir and orchestra.

When Palpatine's plan has come to fruition and Grievous is dead the theme disappears as well.

Interesting...I never drew that connection before. I'm not entirely sure I buy it, since these are just three notes that JW tends to use in a lot of his scores. But interesting nonetheless. (I do need to point out, however, that your second two examples from "General Grievous" are just plain wrong. They're not the same motif at all - in fact, they're the one that I've been talking about with Taikomochi, and there is no relation there, except for the basicmost idea that you start with a note, go up a little, and then go down a little.)