Worst scored scene by John Williams

[King Mark 3,631]

I put that because it would have been too eazy.

K.M..

[charlesk 0]

To clarify the polemic about the first kiss scene un AOTC, it is important to notice that in the whole movie Lucas is controlling the console and playing with the volumes. Also, Lucas has committed every imaginable editting blasphemy with Williams score.

The music was too low in most action scenes, cuts everywhere, music refurbished from Episode 1, etc.

So, if the music here had a very abruptly muting (not cut, the music actually continues), this is responsibility of Lucas, not Williams. I think the intention of Lucas (and Williams) was to make a funny scene, but it resulted ambiguous, because the characters are not regarded as funny.

These are not Leia and Han, whose relationship always was funny. A muting like this with Han and Leia would result in an unambiguous and honest laugh, also because Carrie Fisher would act better the temperamental princess and Harrison Ford would put one of his hilarious faces.

In AOTC, the polemic produced by the scene is a flaw of direction, not scoring.

As for the subject of the thread, I can't remember any bad scoring by Williams that wasn't the result of a directors cut, improper use of bad editting.

[King Mark 3,631]

...

k.M.Who will let charlesk re-write some of that before replying.

[Justin 2]

I didn't terribly like the AOTC Kiss musical sequence but the scene itself is scores wonderfully. The end is just badly done I don't hate it but it could have been done quite a bit better.

Justin

[Guest]

I agree it was a problem of direction. The music simply magnified the power of a poorly directed scene. He caputures what Lucas is trying to do as literally as he always does. And the scene is very diffently shot then the kiss in Empire Strikes Back and other examples that have been given.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

When i saw the scene, i didnt laugh at it, neither found the music embarrasing.

You guys are odd :roll:

[UCFKevin 0]

Everyone laughing that was in my vicinity was completely confused. There were shouts of "Oh come on!" and "What Crap" etc etc etc... I really truly hope it was a George Lucas mistake, but whoever it was, bad choice!

Oh, COME ON.

Did you poll everyone sitting around you? Every single person around you laughed because they thought it was stupid and badly done? Gimme a break. And I highly doubt they all shouted "What crap." I think you and your composer buddies are just a little......I dunno. Hate to say it but, maybe a little too pretentious? And maybe painting your opinion on others so it seems like you have more backup? I could very well be wrong and I hope I am, but I just cannot see how anyone can think that this scene was THAT bad, let alone being the worst scored scene in any movie ever.

Anyway. This probably isn't going to go anywhere useful. I forsee arguments...

[King Mark 3,631]

Oh, COME ON.  

Did you poll everyone sitting around you? Every single person around you laughed because they thought it was stupid and badly done? Gimme a break. And I highly doubt they all shouted "What crap." I think you and your composer buddies are just a little......I dunno. Hate to say it but, maybe a little too pretentious? And maybe painting your opinion on others so it seems like you have more backup? I could very well be wrong and I hope I am, but I just cannot see how anyone can think that this scene was THAT bad, let alone being the worst scored scene in any movie ever.  

...

last summer 2 of my freinds laughed and said something like "what crap",and one of them "pointed out" afterwards the music in that scene despite he knows nothing much about film music

K.M.

[UCFKevin 0]

and one of them "pointed out" afterwards the music in that scene despite he knows nothing much about film music

What does that have anything to do with it? Because he doesn't know much about film music (which doesn't matter anyway), that makes it even more impactful?

And you made it seem like everyone in the audience said, "That's crap" or whatever.

[Romão 2,274]

The people I watched the film with all loved that scene.

[UCFKevin 0]

Yeah, me too, oddly enough.

Watched AOTC last night and my girlfriend laughed at it, and just for kicks, I asked if she thought it was funny stupid or funny good, she said funny good.

[Hlao-roo 389]

Everyone laughing that was in my vicinity was completely confused. There were shouts of "Oh come on!" and "What Crap" etc etc etc... I really truly hope it was a George Lucas mistake, but whoever it was, bad choice!

Oh, COME ON.

Did you poll everyone sitting around you? Every single person around you laughed because they thought it was stupid and badly done? Gimme a break. And I highly doubt they all shouted "What crap." I think you and your composer buddies are just a little......I dunno. Hate to say it but, maybe a little too pretentious? And maybe painting your opinion on others so it seems like you have more backup? I could very well be wrong and I hope I am, but I just cannot see how anyone can think that this scene was THAT bad, let alone being the worst scored scene in any movie ever.

Anyway. This probably isn't going to go anywhere useful. I forsee arguments...

As Uni suggested, the weakness of the scene was that Williams -- or edited Williams -- was in complete control of its tone. Let's say Lucas was going for a laugh there...he would've failed if it weren't for Williams's music fading out so abruptly.

You can insist that you'd've laughed anyway even if it weren't for the music, but I expect it'd've been simply because of the sheer corniness of the scene, not because the scene was "great" or inherently funny.

[King Mark 3,631]

You can insist that you'd've laughed anyway even if it weren't for the music, but I expect it'd've been simply because of the sheer corniness of the scene, not because the scene was "great" or inherently funny.

Any of the scenes in which Anakin and Padme were togheter were just as corny dialogue and acting wise,except the others somewhat remain more afloat in part because of the music.Williams says Lucas wanted to do this epic reomanc in the vein of "Romeo and Juliet"I doubt he wanted it to look corny.

K.M.

[Hlao-roo 389]

You can insist that you'd've laughed anyway even if it weren't for the music, but I expect it'd've been simply because of the sheer corniness of the scene, not because the scene was "great" or inherently funny.

Any of the scenes in which Anakin and Padme were togheter were just as corny dialogue and acting wise,except the others somewhat remain more afloat in part because of the music.Williams says Lucas wanted to do this epic reomanc in the vein of "Romeo and Juliet"I doubt he wanted it to look corny.

K.M.

My sentiments exactly.

[UCFKevin 0]

I doubt I woulda laughed without the music's abrupt stop. That's the best part of it all.

[Hlao-roo 389]

From Slate.com's David Edelstein:

"In these prequels, Lucas is attempting nothing less than an epic saga of corruption, more ambitious than even David Lean's in Lawrence of Arabia (1962)... The scale of the enterprise is thrilling; it's too bad the movie is so muddled on so many different levels."

He wasn't the only critic to sense the potential in the film's premise; who knows what Attack of the Clones and The Phantom Menace could've been in the hands of a skilled filmmaker.

[Hlao-roo 389]

I doubt I woulda laughed without the music's abrupt stop. That's the best part of it all.

No, it's not. It frustrates me that people can enjoy the new Star Wars films because they can poke fun at them.

Sure, it's obviously your right to enjoy the movie any way you like...just bear in mind that the much-misguided George Lucas does not intentionally create Star Wars films as self-parodies.

[Morn 8]

When i saw the scene, i didnt laugh at it, neither found the music embarrasing.  

You guys are odd :roll:

I agree, I like it when music is directly connected to the mental state of the character, in other words mental mickey mousing, it offers more insite. And here it captured padame quite well.

[Guest]

Maybe I misinterpreted the audience, but when they laughed at the short kiss scene in AOTC, I thought it was proof that the scene worked. It worked for me. Its works for me because up to that point their attraction is a little too serious.

[UCFKevin 0]

Exactly. It seemed to loosen up the tension and the uncomfortable awkwardness in that scene AND in the audience. I mean, it IS a pretty rough scene, them just standing there, staring at each other.

Being a lover of the film, I certainly am not blind whatsoever to it's faults. I recognize it's many MANY faults but I also am able to look past them and enjoy the flick.

Anyway.

I can see how some would not like this scene now, honestly. It doesn't really belong in a Star wars movie. It's a cheap laugh.

But of course......there's Jar Jar and Threepio, so......

[Uni 306]

Oh, COME ON.  

Did you poll everyone sitting around you? Every single person around you laughed because they thought it was stupid and badly done? Gimme a break. And I highly doubt they all shouted "What crap."

....And you made it seem like everyone in the audience said, "That's crap" or whatever.

In the theater I helped occupy, it didn't require any sort of poll. The awkwardness of the reaction was palpable. And he didn't say they all cried foul. He distinctly said, "There were shouts of....", meaning someone said, "Oh, come on," while another one came along with the "What crap!" line. I recall any specific wording at my own event, but the laughter wasn't what normally follows a satisfying punch line or apparent comic twist. It was somewhere between the polite laugh you give someone who's desperately trying to entertain you with a joke that was petrified in Shakespeare's day, and the laugh of sheer disbelief as involuntarily as an untimely belch, usually accompanied by a bewildered shake of the head and a glance askance at any companion at hand ("Did I just see that?").

I could very well be wrong and I hope I am, but I just cannot see how anyone can think that this scene was THAT bad, let alone being the worst scored scene in any movie ever.

Believe it. It was that bad. I dunno about the whole "worst scored" thing now (see below), but it was a corker either way.

As Uni suggested, the weakness of the scene was that Williams -- or edited Williams -- was in complete control of its tone. Let's say Lucas was going for a laugh there...he would've failed if it weren't for Williams's music fading out so abruptly.

Yeah, but as I also suggested, I don't think he was aiming for a laugh--it goes totally against the grain he's trying to establish (again, see below)--and so in a way he did fail because the music fades so abruptly (that's part of the reason, anyway).

Any of the scenes in which Anakin and Padme were togheter were just as corny dialogue and acting wise....

Isn't that the truth....although that does, in a way, make nitpicking about this one particular example a case of splitting microscopic hairs. But then, it's the music that stands out in this one, and what else are we here for? :roll:

From Slate.com's David Edelstein:  

"In these prequels, Lucas is attempting nothing less than an epic saga of corruption, more ambitious than even David Lean's in Lawrence of Arabia (1962)... The scale of the enterprise is thrilling; it's too bad the movie is so muddled on so many different levels."  

He wasn't the only critic to sense the potential in the film's premise; who knows what Attack of the Clones and The Phantom Menace could've been in the hands of a skilled filmmaker.

EXACTLY!!! And there's the crux of it. With the original trilogy, Lucas was going for a simpler paradigm, hanging a sly, fast-paced space opera on the standard framework of Joseph Campbell mythology. (If you watch closely, A New Hope wasn't all that far a cry from American Graffiti.) Bringing cutting-edge SPFX to the table helped mask some of the missteps he suffered even at that stage, and the result was a very aptly-handled adventure saga. But now, he's going for the Big Kahuna, trying to leapfrog off the success of the originals to encompass an epic romance (in the classic sense of the word), fit to rival Homer or Mallory or Tolkien. His fierce effort for Edda is obvious in almost every scene in both films (except for those where he's pandering with sophmoric humor, with Jar Jar Binks serving as champion of that particular cause in TPM--which, ironically, goes most of the way in undermining his broader purpose). But he's simply not up to the task. Not only is the faltering love affair not Romeo and Juliet, it's barely up to snuff with Saturday morning cartoons.

I think that's what frustrates me the most about it. There is so much potential to be had from the notion of a young and courageous Knight trying to win the hand of the beautiful, influential lady he fancies, even as he is drawn inexorably toward an evil path from which he cannot return. There's a glorious exhilaration that comes when watching a filmmaker or actor reach for something grand, nearly impossible even, and then achieve it; but it is conversely just as disappointing to see them reach, know they're reaching and what they're reaching for, and watch them fumble around and fall short. In extreme cases, it's downright embarassing, though aside from an unavoidable cringe or two, I don't know that I'd go that far in accusing Lucas. It's just a little sad to see what could have been a better product not break through, that's all.

It worked for me. Its works for me because up to that point their attraction is a little too serious.

Exactly. It seemed to loosen up the tension and the uncomfortable awkwardness in that scene AND in the audience. I mean, it IS a pretty rough scene, them just standing there, staring at each other.

See, and that's why I think it didn't work. The tension should be there. He is trying to draw near, she's drawing away. They both know the impossibility of their situation; he's willing to risk it, though, whereas she is not (not yet, anyway--nor should she be). Wooden acting and ill dialogue aside, here's the situation where he nearly breaks through her resolve, a key point in the progression. How much better might it have been to key down the music (as in the Raiders and Empire examples previously suggested), and to see the shadow of desire in her eyes--even as she reminds him of his place? (And then, perhaps, to see him stolidly accept this, almost growing cold with it, and see her flash of regret as he leaves? You can get ten times the mileage out of subtext than simple dialogue.)

Regardless of what might have been, I simply can't buy that even Lucas, inept as he is with the trappings of romance, would choose to resolve a scene of this import with the dramatic equivalent of a comedian's Ba-doom, ching! and a laugh track....which is ultimately why I call the scoring choice an error, whether his fault or Lucas's (although I'm very inclined toward charlesk's assessment, which puts the potato square in Lucas's hands--and makes it harder to call it the "worst scoring choice" by Williams, who may not even have been consulted).

Now, before we're finished here, PLEASE UNDERSTAND THIS (again!): I don't hate this movie. I don't. After I first saw the sneak preview, we went outside to a refreshment tent attended by people wearing the authentic costumes from the films, and we sat and drank fake bubbly and raved together about how much fun we'd just had. I felt it went a great deal further than Menace in recapturing the spirit of the first trilogy, and I was well willing to overlook its shortcomings. (As a matter of fact, the romance isn't even its worst part....that cake goes to Threepio, who actually does shoot off jokes that were petrified back in Shakespeare's day.) For discussions like this, I go into this sort of painstaking detail for two reasons: 1) I'm responding to an alternative (not by any means invalid!) opinion, not trying to change it but attempting to help them understand why I hold to my opinion, and 2) the challenge of stating a thesis on a subject like this, then backing it up it as best I can, is one of the chief joys I find in writing here (if you really want to know). Keeps me thinking, and gives my toes a workout.

So puh-lease, none of this Lucas/Star Wars-bashing business. Like those Nitpicker Guides to the Trek shows, it's all based first and foremost on respect and love for the franchise. If I really hated it, I would bomb the thing as a whole, and would hardly waste my time breaking it down in such detail.

- Uni

[Justin 2]

When i saw the scene, i didnt laugh at it, neither found the music embarrasing.  

You guys are odd :roll:

The music is FAR from embarrasing. I just thought the end could have been a little less awkward and it is true I thought the scene could have been done better.

I still like it though.

Well....a little bit.

Justin -

[Morn 8]

How much better might it have been to key down the music (as in the Raiders and Empire examples previously suggested), and to see the shadow of desire in her eyes--even as she reminds him of his place?

That probably would work better, however it seems rather made up and unrealistic compared to what happened, in any case, if it works better I'd go with it. My point is just that how it was was realistic and how it was scored perfectly echoed what mentally happened to padame .

[Guest]

In Raiders and Empire, the romance was directed in a more low key way. In AOTC, Lucas is clearly going over the top with the beautiful setting and lighting, the wider camera shot, etc.

Williams music reinforced that sense of two people being swept away in the moment. Then you have a sort of 'back to earth' moment that completely halts everything and the music halts, also.

If the scene fails, its because of the direction. Its sort of like if Spielberg directs an over the top, sappy movie like Hook, people shoudn't criticize Williams for an over the top, sappy score.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The Hook score is NOT over the top and sappy.

Stefancos-

[Guest]

I think the score for Hook is great. But part of its greatness is the fact that he is able to capture the director's vision so perfectly. Personally, I think the score for Hook has a sappiness about it that is entirely appropriate. My point is that whether one like's the score or not, it is by the standard of how it supports the director's vision that one should direct criticism of JW.

So in the AOTC kissing scene, one would have to ask if the music is conistent with the visuals, acting, directing, etc. and I think it was just as it was in Hook. This is independent of the question of whether a movie or a particular scene is liked or elicits the wrong response. If the scene fails its because of the direction, in my view.

It is hard to come up with a worst scored scene by JW because JW music is so consistently rooted in what is happening on the screen. Even with a terrible movie like Heartbeeps, JW is able to convey its sensibilities and find its soul, so to speak.

[Hlao-roo 389]

Revisiting this thread, I find that charlesk made an interesting implication -- that whenever Williams ostensibly "screws up," it's the director's fault. Do you think that's a fair assumption?

[King Mark 3,631]

Yes,JW doesn't make mistakes.

K.M.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

LOL

True

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Banning Back Home is great!

[Hlao-roo 389]

What exactly makes "Banning Back Home" a badly scored scene?  I realize it's not instantly recognisable Williams material with all the composer's trademarks.  But Williams' music, as usual, is able to adapt to any kind of scene a director shows.  Is it the synthy bass people object to?  Because it's so un-Williams-like?  I think this cue is a perfect example of Williams' versatility.

Or perhaps it's a perfect example of Williams's ability to ape other composers (in this case, Grusin)?

[Jeshopk 8]

A.I. - bedroom argument scene, right after David is introduced, comes pretty close to the worst scored scene. I don't know whether to fault Williams or Spielberg though - that scene should simply not have had any music - and if it should, it should've been a background scoring, not a foreground one, trying to intensify the tension on the screen.

! This was my choice as well! I think it also has something to do with the bad acting and dialogue too, but Williams seemed only to enhance the badness of the scene rather than classify it. Maudlin.

[Jeshopk 8]

The Attack of the Clones near kiss is intentionally humorous and is a wonderful scene. Williams picked up on Lucas' humor and enhanced it perfectly. It is also in a very 1940's reverse accent tradition. The scene is very 1940's too, like Home Alone's "Angels with Filthy Souls"

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Well you won me over....

[deimos 0]

One again in two days we have an old thread back.

I don't know what's the problem with the kiss scene. It was never weird for me, at least till now. It's not like in ESB at all. There you had the anti-romance, a may-be couple turning their tension into love and going back to the real world suddenly. In clones you had this great romace which apparently is going great but then, nope. This is one of these scenes in which music tells you what to think, and it'ss obvious that both Lucas and Williams wanted it to be a bit humouristic. It's like: what a dissapointment. Just the kind of scene you would find with pop music and that walkman-out-of-batteries effect afterwards. But this time with an orchestra.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

It's a humouristic moment during a scene that seems dead serious.

In other words, the laughter should not be there, you are laughing at the scene, not with it.

[Karovd 0]

I don't understand what you people are talking about

LINK DELETED BY MODERATOR

because it's perfectly possible for the orchestra to have played it like that - I also don't find that scene humorous, and noone laughed or anything any of the 4 times I saw it in the theatre.

Maybe I'm just an emotional sucker

[Hlao-roo 389]

The Attack of the Clones near kiss is intentionally humorous and is a wonderful scene. Williams picked up on Lucas' humor and enhanced it perfectly. It is also in a very 1940's reverse accent tradition. The scene is very 1940's too, like Home Alone's "Angels with Filthy Souls"

Indeed, such a card, that man Lucas! How delightful it was that he was able to wonderfully recapture that vein of humor at the end of Revenge of the Sith by delivering a brilliantly timed sequence of comic relief as a wriggling Vader bellows an unforgettable "NoOoOo." A lesser director would have predictably sustained the tension, but Lucas had the sublime artistic audaciousness to convey the hilarity that is the neglected underside of tragedy.

[Henry B 50]

The duel scene in Attack of the Clones is awful. Alternating between barely musical woodblock taps and ridiculous little fanfares, it never elevates the viewer's emotions above slight tension. I tried subbing "Departure of Boba Fett" into part of this scene (the end with the Force theme and Yoda's theme underscoring the Yoda/Dooku duel). It was great!

Make no mistake, though, I love the strained rendition of Yoda's theme at the end of the duel music... only good thing about it.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

The kiss music in ESB ans AOC as i stated before, has the same approach, in neither of them the music abruptly ends, it continues more lightly and lesser volume.

Leia had the same reaction as padme, she can be seen fleeing from han when she has the opportunity (when 3PO interrupts).

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

The AotC goes too far. From very loud to almost inaudible. The only thing missing is the sound effect of a needle being roughly pulled off a vinyl album.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Listen too Stung Kissing/Cargo Hold from Mark Snow's X-Files movie score to hear how they could have made it work.

[Edmilson 7,435]

My vote goes for the SE edition of ROTJ. 

 

And come on guys, Attack of the Clones' score isn't that bad.

 

Also, people here were weird back in 2002, heh.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

"Finn's Sacrifice" from The Last Jedi strikes me as being one of the more weirdly scored Williams scenes.  A choral lament for a fakeout death.  

 

I can just imagine Rian Johnson saying something like "and I want there to be some big emotional choir music here!"

[Fabulin 3,511]

I have always thought that the music going out in that AOTC kiss scene was very appropriate.

 

Maybe I have bad taste, like Williams 

[artguy360 1,843]

One of the more "recent" examples of a poorly scored scene by JW for me is the opening to War Horse. I've said many times before that the music is just too fast and busy for the fairly tame landscape shots of lush grass. Even once the horses are introduced, the Dartmoor music is still played at too fast a tempo to match the galloping of the horses. 

 

That opening scene is one of the very few times JW's music pulled me out of the movie. It's exceedingly rare that I think JW mis-scored a scene, but this is one of them.

[bollemanneke 3,342]

I don't understand the question.

 

Do you mean the worst scene JW ever had to score? In that case, the banquet scene from Hook.

Or do you mean the scene he put the worst music over? In that case the alternate holiday flight from HA2.

[GerateWohl 4,357]

On 11/14/2002 at 1:34 AM, Simon R. said:

A.I. - bedroom argument scene, right after David is introduced, comes pretty close to the worst scored scene. I don't know whether to fault Williams or Spielberg though - that scene should simply not have had any music - and if it should, it should've been a background scoring, not a foreground one, trying to intensify the tension on the screen.

A.I. was actually the first and probably only movie scored by Williams where I had the Impression that there is too much music. I don't have a particular scene in mind. It just felt overscored. 

 

Then there is a scene or rather a cut in The Phantom Menace where I always thought, not solved well musically. It is the moment when they escaped from Naboo, R2 saved the ship and action is over. But the action music still continues for some bars even though they are already discussing the next steps. That always felt wrong musically.

[GerateWohl 4,357]

Concerning AotC once some YouTube critic said a sentence that quite nails it. He said, Williams wrote a wonderful romantic score to the movie that Lucas actually wanted to make but didn't manage to.

[Bofur01 245]

7 hours ago, bollemanneke said:

I don't understand the question.

 

Do you mean the worst scene JW ever had to score? In that case, the banquet scene from Hook.

Or do you mean the scene he put the worst music over? In that case the alternate holiday flight from HA2.

 

I think the question is really something else - More like "Which scene did John Williams do the worst job of scoring?"