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The Quick Question Thread


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I was recently looking on the back side of the booklet from La-La Land's Hook and I noticed that the original album is listed.

Just curious... what's the story behind mentioning the original album on expanded/complete scores releases? I saw this issue on expanded releases like E.T. 1996 and 2002. Was it only a recommendation or does this apply the intension which is meant to be heard?

Any ideas?

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The marches for Ben-Hur weren't recorded in Hollywood, nor in a studio. They were recorded in Rome, outdoors in order to simulate the sound of a march being performed out in the open,

Karol

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Well... I was aware that the marches were recorded in Rome (when the film was shot there, before the recording sessions proper took place in America), and that this included the circus parade. I didn't know they were recorded outdoors.

But it still doesn't explain why the parade sounds so much worse than all the other marches?

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So, there's something titled "An Ewok Celebration" on this Ewoks bootleg:

http://starwars.wiki...28soundtrack%29

Listening to it, it seems to have a clean ending of Victory Celebration.

Has anyone else heard this, and can tell if it's legit (the recording, I mean)?

It's not just the OST edited to stop before the credits--there's a longer fadeout.

I suppose it's just a well done fan extension, but I had never heard it before and it sounds pretty convincing.

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The so-called "Additional Material" tracks have never officially been sanctioned by Lucasfilm Ltd. and are in fact poorly engineered tracks cobbled together from a mixture of tracks from both the Star Wars Trilogy: The Original Soundtrack Anthology and various releases of the Return of the Jedi soundtrack.
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At least use the [ quote] tags if you're going to paste something from a webpage without listing your source

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The so-called "Additional Material" tracks have never officially been sanctioned by Lucasfilm Ltd. and are in fact poorly engineered tracks cobbled together from a mixture of tracks from both the Star Wars Trilogy: The Original Soundtrack Anthology and various releases of the Return of the Jedi soundtrack.

Yes, I got that much (as it was on the page I linked to). "The Force Suite" has bits of McNeely's Shadows of the Empire, and "A Star Wars Experience" has MECO and other recordings mixed in--all very amateur.

But "An Ewok Celebration" includes the full album Victory Celebration with a rather nicely done fadeout (if it is indeed amateur). I was just wondering if anyone else had come across it.

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What is the specific difference between a motif and a theme, musically?

People generally call "major" themes that represent a major character or place or idea and maybe get their own concert arrangement a "theme", while "minor" themes that might not get played as often or not get a full development "motifs"

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What is the specific difference between a motif and a theme, musically?

People generally call "major" themes that represent a major character or place or idea and maybe get their own concert arrangement a "theme", while "minor" themes that might not get played as often or not get a full development "motifs"

Wikipedia defines motif quite aptly: Motif is a short musical idea a salient recurring figure, musical fragment or succession of notes that has some special importance in or is characteristic of a composition.

For a theme it says: A theme may be perceivable as a complete musical expression in itself, separate from the work in which it is found (Drabkin 2001). In contrast to an idea or motif, a theme is usually a complete phrase or period (Dunsby 2002). The Encyclopédie Fasquelle defines a theme as "Any element, motif, or small musical piece that has given rise to some variation becomes thereby a theme." (Michel 1958–61).

So there are different theories or ideas how each is defined, but apparently nothing truly definitive.

And of course leitmotif has its own special meaning which is the term we mostly use in film music for themes.

Wikipedia once again has this under leitmotif: Although usually a short melody, it can also be a chord progression or even a simple rhythm. Leitmotifs can help to bind a work together into a coherent whole, and also enable the composer to relate a story without the use of words, or to add an extra level to an already present story.

So it would seem that leitmotif covers both the idea of motif, a short melodic etc. identification and themes which are longer musical phrases.

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So, this is more a discretionary distinction? There is no concrete difference, other than which is put in the forefront?

I think so. Would love to hear Doug Adam's take on it.

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What is the specific difference between a motif and a theme, musically?

People generally call "major" themes that represent a major character or place or idea and maybe get their own concert arrangement a "theme", while "minor" themes that might not get played as often or not get a full development "motifs"

Wikipedia defines motif quite aptly: Motif is a short musical idea a salient recurring figure, musical fragment or succession of notes that has some special importance in or is characteristic of a composition.

For a theme it says: A theme may be perceivable as a complete musical expression in itself, separate from the work in which it is found (Drabkin 2001). In contrast to an idea or motif, a theme is usually a complete phrase or period (Dunsby 2002). The Encyclopédie Fasquelle defines a theme as "Any element, motif, or small musical piece that has given rise to some variation becomes thereby a theme." (Michel 1958–61).

So there are different theories or ideas how each is defined, but apparently nothing truly definitive.

I think that was helpful. Judging by what you posted, could it be said that a theme has more of a self-sufficiency, being able to stand alone outside the work(as mentioned, being able to have a concert arrangement?), that motifs lack. In addition, it has a certain amount of variation, found within the score, allowing the theme to develop. Could it be said that a recurring phrase without development is more of a motif than a theme?

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Could it be said that a recurring phrase without development is more of a motif than a theme?

I personally would understand and most often use it that way.

But in leitmotivic sense a theme/leitmotif can be either long or short so the length of the musical phrase is not relevant. :P

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Actually, the leitmotif as Wagner used it was different than just a thematic idea associated with a character/place/idea. That is "l'idee fixe," which had been used for centuries by many other composers. The leitmotif was different in that Wagner would develop certain themes to the point of unrecognizability (without serious study), or derive one leitmotif from another leitmotif, etc. Sort of like how the theme heard on piano in "Remembering Emilie and Finale" is derived from the ascending theme first heard in "Dartmoor," or how "Adventures of Mutt" is derived from Raiders March.

Also, anybody know which recording of the Metropolis Symphony is best?

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What is the specific difference between a motif and a theme, musically?

People generally call "major" themes that represent a major character or place or idea and maybe get their own concert arrangement a "theme", while "minor" themes that might not get played as often or not get a full development "motifs"

So, what would that make the 5 notes from "CE3K", or the two notes from "Jaws" - motifs, or themes? It's a twister!!

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For example, the music for the droids in SW is a motif, because it does not recur much. The music for The Force however is a theme because it recurs.

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Question for the musicians here: What do you call the technique where you've got melodies that suggest two different time signatures playing over each other?

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I know what you're getting at, because I've heard it and played it, but I don't know if it has a specific word.

You certainly would not want to have different instruments playing their parts to different signatures that differ by number of beats, because when the group falls apart and the conductor has to restart at "measure 100," well...that will mean different things to different groups.

But the implied feeling of different meters can be mixed together, like 3/4 and 6/8, if conducted as a waltz, or 2/4 and 6/8, if conducted as a march. The bass has one feel and the melody another, and the drums, well...nobody really knows what the drummers would be thinking.

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Is Williams' Superman Main Theme a good example for this?

Because it has a march feeling, but is written in 12/8 if my piano sheet music is correct.

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Is Williams' Superman Main Theme a good example for this?

Because it has a march feeling, but is written in 12/8 if my piano sheet music is correct.

It may be notated that way, but when listening it can be "felt" as 4/4 or 12/8, it wouldn't really make too much of a difference (although it would change the notation quite a bit). I'm talking about really obvious contrasts, a little more extreme than the examples Wojo mentioned. Times when you feel like the composer is trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. It's an awesome effect. Here's an example. At 7:06-7:12 of this video, there's a melody that suggests a 4/4 feeling, but at the same time brass players play dotted half notes, suggesting a 3/4 feeling.

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I was providing examples that would be different but still fall within the same meter.

This Ticheli piece is a good example of an off-meter rhythm providing tension to the main melody.

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A couple of things:

Has anyone tried to analyze the "Battle in the Snow"?

What are people's thoughts on "America, and the Dream goes on"? I like it, although the secondary motif or whatever sounds like the theme to Hawaii-Five-O a bit. And was it responsible for his leaving the Boston Pops (I saw that in a youtube comment)

Has anyone analyzed Soundings and is there any other performance or official recording of it?

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From the liner notes of The Deluxe Edition:

Ironically, with the incredible popularity of both of his previous Omen scores, The Final Conflict came to theaters at a time when releases of orchestral film scores as soundtrack albums were becoming rarer. The Final Conflict was released in 1981 and, par for the times, was not accompanied by a soundtrack. It wasn't until five years later that Masters Film Music took on this score as its first release to be distributed by Varese Sarabande Records.

So, in a nutshell, it's Giorgio Moroder's fault

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Does anyone that has the TOD sheets know what the story is behind "2M2Revised Map Extension (Alternate Pages 1 & 2) ?"

It just looks like the trumpet melody and viola lines written out and some text is written in the piano/ celeste lines that I can't quite make out. Looks like it says "[first word] from original R2P2 bars." I can't tell what the first word is.

Anyway, not extremely important, just curiosity has gotten the best of me.

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ah...interesting. So...it doesn't look like the alternate pages are different from the actual revised map extension. Thank you Jason

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Has anyone tried to analyze the "Battle in the Snow"?

Except for the analysis in the SE liner notes I suppose?

If memory serves (I'm too lazy to re-read the entire chapter at the moment), this book by Kathryn Kalinak contains at least a partial analysis of the cue. Although the motif interpretations differ slightly.

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Question:

"The Scroll Theme" at the end of the third track on the Tintin OS album, which instruments play the main melody? Flute? And what else? Clarinets?

I especially like the slightly "rough" quality it has. . . what is that? Doubled by an accordion? I think that slight touch is genius!

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I think it might the instruments you just mentioned plus a some sort of synth mark tree or twinkling effect underneath.

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And I think there is a subtle horn backing to the whole melody as a texture underneath.

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Question:

"The Scroll Theme" at the end of the third track on the Tintin OS album, which instruments play the main melody? Flute? And what else? Clarinets?

I especially like the slightly "rough" quality it has. . . what is that? Doubled by an accordion? I think that slight touch is genius!

Flute, Accordion, Synth, Celeste + Harpsichord (synth), Harp, Violins, Violas, Celli and Bassi. At the end 2 horns and 3 trombones also play (the trombones are con sordini)

The last part of "The Secret of the Scrolls" (the one that you mentioned) from 2:28 - end is actually the latter half of "1m6 Empty Drawers". The first part consists of Tintin's theme played on 2 horns, clarinets and alto flute, synth and strings.

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Question:

"The Scroll Theme" at the end of the third track on the Tintin OS album, which instruments play the main melody? Flute? And what else? Clarinets?

I especially like the slightly "rough" quality it has. . . what is that? Doubled by an accordion? I think that slight touch is genius!

Flute, Accordion, Synth, Celeste + Harpsichord (synth), Harp, Violins, Violas, Celli and Bassi. At the end 2 horns and 3 trombones also play (the trombones are con sordini)

The last part of "The Secret of the Scrolls" (the one that you mentioned) from 2:28 - end is actually the latter half of "1m6 Empty Drawers". The first part consists of Tintin's theme played on 2 horns, clarinets and alto flute, synth and strings.

Thanks!

I find this theme mind-blowingly good... in part because of the way it's orchestrated. Sends shivers down your spine, almost.

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