Do you believe a non-musician can appreciate music as much as a trained musician is able to?

[Quintus 5,391]

This debate comes up more often than not, so lets get see how black and white people think it really is.

[Ollie 859]

Yes-non musician.

[Charlie Brigden 5]

I picked yes, non-musician. This whole thing reminds me of the Simpsons episode where the teachers go on strike, and one of the nerds teaches class and makes some kind of toy thing.

"Can I play with it?"

"No, you won't be able to appreciate it on as many levels as I do."

[Henry B 49]

Yes - musician.

[bramada222 0]

......

[Koray Savas 2,095]

Yes, non-musician.

[Williamsfan301 11]

Yes - musician

[Hlao-roo 388]

Whether or not one's overall level of musical appreciation is higher than another person's -- or whether even such a level can be apprehended -- is frankly not that interesting to me. I think it's fair to say that individuals appreciate music in different ways, depending on one's life experiences. I think it's undeniable that someone who has played the piano will appreciate a piano piece differently from someone who has never played the piano -- in hearing a particular performance he might think about how he might have tackled a particular passage with regard to fingerings, pedalings, and whatnot. I also think it's undeniable that someone well-versed in taking an academic approach to analyzing individual building blocks of music -- rhythm, melody, harmony, and so on -- will appreciate these elements in music differently from someone who is not used to picking them apart in that manner.

I think the problem comes when those of us with markedly different experiences and backgrounds attempt to communicate with each other about our opinions on a given piece or type of music. We each bring our own presuppositions to bear and often feel uncomfortable with those who don't share them. And so, in the context of this thread topic, charges of elitism or of ignorance will abound, and people will lose their minds and temporarily forget why we're all here in the first place.

We can argue indefinitely about what life experiences will render one's reception and perception of a given piece or type of music richer or poorer, or we can accept that different types of experiences, different degrees of training will naturally produce different kinds of opinions.

[Williamsfan301 11]

How many trumpet players does it take to change a light bulb?

50. One does it, while the other 49 stand there and talk about how much better they would have done it.

[Neimoidian 13]

Yes - as far as the emotions are concerned. No - in terms of the craft and technique.

- Chris, non-musician

[Josh500 1,602]

Whether or not one's overall level of musical appreciation is higher than another person's -- or whether even such a level can be apprehended -- is frankly not that interesting to me. I think it's fair to say that individuals appreciate music in different ways, depending on one's life experiences. I think it's undeniable that someone who has played the piano will appreciate a piano piece differently from someone who has never played the piano -- in hearing a particular performance he might think about how he might have tackled a particular passage with regard to fingerings, pedalings, and whatnot. I also think it's undeniable that someone well-versed in taking an academic approach to analyzing individual building blocks of music -- rhythm, melody, harmony, and so on -- will appreciate these elements in music differently from someone who is not used to picking them apart in that manner.

I think the problem comes when those of us with markedly different experiences and backgrounds attempt to communicate with each other about our opinions on a given piece or type of music. We each bring our own presuppositions to bear and often feel uncomfortable with those who don't share them. And so, in the context of this thread topic, charges of elitism or of ignorance will abound, and people will lose their minds and temporarily forget why we're all here in the first place.

We can argue indefinitely about what life experiences will render one's reception and perception of a given piece or type of music richer or poorer, or we can accept that different types of experiences, different degrees of training will naturally produce different kinds of opinions.

Well said! I agree.

However, generally, I would say that people who have some basic understanding of music appreciate it more than those who don't. After all, said appreciation may have led some to study it and make it their livelihood...

PS I am not a musician, but I play the piano quite well.

[Melange 446]

Do you believe.........etc

Given that I'm not a trained musician, I cannot really answer this I suppose.

But I would guess that if you're a trained musician then there is a risk perhaps of your attention being pulled more into the technical workings and skills of a piece, rather than the vibrations it is producing that have an effect on us? It's sometimes far more wonderful to love a piece of music without knowing 'exactly'what the various tricks being employed that hook or tickle people's emotional responses, are. Otherwise it is like working on a movie set. You know all the ins and outs, instead of being convinced by what you're seeing if you're a viewer in a cinema. Saying that, even though I'm not trained, I believe my ear nevertheless does pick and dissect the fabulous skills being employed while a piece is playing. I may not know the scholarly name for a technique being employed that I find fascinating, but I can still appreciate what is going on, very much.

[Luke Skywalker 1,284]

I think that being a musician allows you to enjoy the music in an entirely different level (a technical level i suppose), but in the emotional level it's the same for everyone.

[Hlao-roo 388]

However, generally, I would say that people who have some basic understanding of music appreciate it more than those who don't. After all, said appreciation may have led some to study it and make it their livelihood...

I'm not sure I would use the word "appreciate," given how loaded it is, but you make a good point. We've been approaching this question from the angle of training/lack of training --> appreciation, when you could also look at it the other way around. Those who are truly passionate about music are more likely to end up in that field than those who are not.

[Sergeant 1,093]

Yes and I say that as a musician.

Sometimes even more than us well-trained nitpickers.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

I disagree. Music is about emotion. As such, it can't really be measured.

[Josh500 1,602]

However, generally, I would say that people who have some basic understanding of music appreciate it more than those who don't. After all, said appreciation may have led some to study it and make it their livelihood...

I'm not sure I would use the word "appreciate," given how loaded it is, but you make a good point. We've been approaching this question from the angle of training/lack of training --> appreciation, when you could also look at it the other way around. Those who are truly passionate about music are more likely to end up in that field than those who are not.

Well, I used the word appreciate only because it's part of the question.

Anyway, this is like asking if film directors (like Spielberg) appreciate movies more than regular movie-goers or even film buffs. And to that I would say, "D'uh!"

[Hlao-roo 388]

I think that being a musician allows you to enjoy the music in an entirely different level (a technical level i suppose), but in the emotional level it's the same for everyone.

I agree completely with you and Chris.

The problem is that different people attach different values to these "levels." Some might say that the "emotional level" is the one that really counts; some might say that the "technical level" is somehow "higher" than the "emotional level." Some might say that since musicians can appreciate music on both "levels," that means they have better appreciation overall.

This is sort of why I don't think this question is that interesting -- because the answer isn't really all that interesting, either.

[Quintus 5,391]

Yes - as far as the emotions are concerned. No - in terms of the craft and technique.

Emotions, craft, technique whatever. They all point in the same direction.

I don't think this question is that interesting -- because the answer isn't really all that interesting, either.

You did at least humour it though, which is appreciated, as always.

[Josh500 1,602]

This is sort of why I don't think this question is that interesting -- because the answer isn't really all that interesting, either.

Also it's asking 2 questions at the same time, the 2nd one being "are you a musician or not?"

[Hlao-roo 388]

Yes - as far as the emotions are concerned. No - in terms of the craft and technique.

Emotions, craft, technique whatever. They all point in the same direction.

Yes, they all point up.

[MissPadmé 17]

No he can not - speaking as a musician.

If you know more about something, you can aprreciate more factors about it, thats a fact. A musician gets emotionally in touch with aspects about music, a normal guy can only dream about.

[Wojo 2,442]

What constitutes a "musician" for the sake of your argument? Is it somebody trained in music theory, on path to be an educator, composer, or simply fan of music academia? Or is it somebody who was taught to play a musical instrument as part of a group in school?

Because I know how to play an instrument or two, I can read music, I enjoy playing and listening to music, and I took 1 course in music theory, yet I am no music scholar. You can't play a chord or diatonic and expect me to tell you if it's a third or fourth or fifth, or major or minor, because I just don't know.

So anyways, I voted Yes and I say that as a musician.

[Quintus 5,391]

No he can not - speaking as a musician.

If you know more about something, you can aprreciate more factors about it, thats a fact. A musician gets emotionally in touch with aspects about music, a normal guy can only dream about.

Please describe what you know about the Force Theme a simple layman does not. Illuminate the layman as to what makes E.T's flying theme more emotionally profound to you than it does to "he".

Define "emotion" from a musically trained point of view.

Go on Miss Densé, be tempted. Make me laugh.

[David Coscina 3]

Of course a non-musician can appreciate music as much and this is coming from a musician. The receptivity of music is largely visceral and that transcends the cerebral faculties. If you ask Williams, he will tell you how a scene affects him emotionally and then he composes from that- although he's got terrificly vast compositional resources at his disposal.

Look, I know this debate comes up a lot and I honestly believe this particular point has never been contested by either side. It's arrogant to think it can be. The only thing a trained musician can discern are the techniques that were employed that resulted in the creation of the piece. It is fair to say that some folks on this forum believe that trained musicians take all the fun out of the experience of listening to music because they can analyze it, but that would an assumption, not a fact.

[Red 73]

Yes as a musician. Although people who study music may have a better understanding of it on a technical level, as it has been said music is about emotion and it can't really be quantified, whether you play an instrument or not.

[King Mark 2,924]

No he can not - speaking as a musician.

If you know more about something, you can aprreciate more factors about it, thats a fact. A musician gets emotionally in touch with aspects about music, a normal guy can only dream about.

yes,riiiight...

[Wojo 2,442]

No he can not - speaking as a musician.

If you know more about something, you can aprreciate more factors about it, thats a fact. A musician gets emotionally in touch with aspects about music, a normal guy can only dream about.

To appreciate a sports car, do I have to know how to build the sports car? Do I have to know how to repair the sports car? Knowing such things might contribute to my appreciation, but simply knowing how to drive the sports car is enough to appreciate it.

To appreciate a book, I don't have to be a writer. I don't even have to know how to read, because somebody can read it to me.

[Charlie Brigden 5]

I don't think I can trust a musician who doesn't appreciate Jerry Goldsmith.

[King Mark 2,924]

No he can not - speaking as a musician.

If you know more about something, you can aprreciate more factors about it, thats a fact. A musician gets emotionally in touch with aspects about music, a normal guy can only dream about.

To appreciate a sports car, do I have to know how to build the sports car? Do I have to know how to repair the sports car? Knowing such things might contribute to my appreciation, but simply knowing how to drive the sports car is enough to appreciate it.

To appreciate a book, I don't have to be a writer. I don't even have to know how to read, because somebody can read it to me.

there's another billion example you can give . People who don't write novels can't appreciate books to the same level as writers...ect..

"a normal guy can only dream about"..lol

[Quintus 5,391]

Methinks Miss Padmé talks sh*t, often.

[David Coscina 3]

I don't think I can trust a musician who doesn't appreciate Jerry Goldsmith.

I have to agree with this.

Sorry Miss Padme but I cannot agree with you, speaking as a musician. I will use my friend Mark Olivarez as an example. By his own admission he is not formally trained but I know from his thoughtful posts that he gets as much satisfaction, maybe more, than I do from listening to Williams' scores or Ifukube or whomever. Koray loves Zimmer's music so he gets more from it than I. So, in some ways, I am almost willing to concede that from a strictly responsive level, non musicians can enjoy music as much if not more than us jaded cynics. At least this jaded crabby bastard.

[Sergeant 1,093]

"a normal guy can only dream about"

One of the cooliest statements I have heard for a long time...

[David Coscina 3]

"a normal guy can only dream about"

One of the cooliest statements I have heard for a long time...

I actually think it's arrogant.

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

Yes - as far as the emotions are concerned. No - in terms of the craft and technique.

- Chris, non-musician

I agree. Musician

[Wojo 2,442]

I suppose it depends on how we define "music appreciation." Is it solely appreciation of music's beauty and emotion? Is it analytical dissection of craft and technique?

I suppose the question asks "as much." That means the presenter knows it is a relative concept, but how do you quantify it? A non-musician may appreciate very simple music because it appeals to him, whereas a musician turns his nose at how mundane it is. That doesn't make either person right or wrong.

[King Mark 2,924]

Well,this thread is bound to make people butt heads.

I've listened to JW music for 30 year , and even if I don't know music theory and can't explain myself in technical terms, I feel I know JW's music inside and out and have a strong emotional connection to it.

Why should I let some person in music school tell me otherwise?

Personally, I can't stand the whole snotty art house "I live on a higher plane of existence than you" type of attitude ,whether it relates to music or criticizing movies

[ChrisAfonso 159]

I agree with those that say both can appreciate (the same or different) music very much, I don't think it's really comparable (how do you measure appreciation?), and open-minded "music-savvy" people can enjoy music in both ways (non-technical and technical). I for example enjoy music by John Williams often on both levels, music by Hans Zimmer I can really enjoy on an emotional basis although it doesn't hold up an inch on a technical level, and there's music I don't really like to listen to very much, but I can appreciate the technical craft that went into it. I would think there are many other people that feel the same way.

[Quintus 5,391]

If anyone has reason to take issue with numb heads like Padme, KM does.

[David Coscina 3]

I agree with those that say both can appreciate (the same or different) music very much, I don't think it's really comparable (how do you measure appreciation?), and open-minded "music-savvy" people can enjoy music in both ways (non-technical and technical). I for example enjoy music by John Williams often on both levels, music by Hans Zimmer I can really enjoy on an emotional basis although it doesn't hold up an inch on a technical level, and there's music I don't really like to listen to very much, but I can appreciate the technical craft that went into it. I would think there are many other people that feel the same way.

I agree. Much of Bartok's music fascinates me and I love it from a technical standpoint but I cannot emotionally connect with it.

[MSM 85]

No - musician. Though difficult question. Non-musicians have difficulty naming what they like in music, and this tempers their appreciation. This is my experience with non-musicians in my environment.

[Koray Savas 2,095]

Appreciation is overrated. Just listen to what you like. If you like technically complex with music with harmonies, melodies, etc. then listen to it. If you like some guy banging on a keyboard, that's fine too... It's all the same. Even better if you like and can appreciate both.

[Quintus 5,391]

No - musician. Though difficult question. Non-musicians have difficulty naming what they like in music, and this tempers their appreciation. This is my experience with non-musicians in my environment.

And what exactly is your environment?

[Romão 1,931]

While I agree you don't need any formal musical education to apreciate music, I have little doubt were I musically educated (which I'm not, in any way), I would perhaps have a groundwork for even deeper musical apreciation. But sometimes, musical technicalities aside, it can be very rewarding and productive if one thrives to educate his own musical taste, so to speak. Listening to John Williams so often has no doubt helped to learn to apreciate Prokofiev, for example, and that in return has allowed to even further apreciate Williams music, as I became sensitive to things I was totally unware before. Again, I mean this on a totally not technical musical standpoint.

next thing I know, I'm enjoyng greatly some pieces of music I considered to be borderline unlistenable a few years back.

[King Mark 2,924]

And the whole Zimmer vs Williams debate is not the same. This is a John Williams fan site , where people are allowed to think Williams is the best composer alive

[Koray Savas 2,095]

People are allowed to think whatever they want wherever they are.

[MSM 85]

No - musician. Though difficult question. Non-musicians have difficulty naming what they like in music, and this tempers their appreciation. This is my experience with non-musicians in my environment.

And what exactly is your environment?

Just some of my family members, people at my work, some of my friends. Btw I think their appreciation is like limited because of their lack of musical knowledge.

[Quintus 5,391]

And the whole Zimmer vs Williams debate is not the same. This is a John Williams fan site , where people are allowed to think Williams is the best composer alive

Especially when it's true!

No - musician. Though difficult question. Non-musicians have difficulty naming what they like in music, and this tempers their appreciation. This is my experience with non-musicians in my environment.

And what exactly is your environment?

Just some of my family members, people at my work, some of my friends. Btw I think their appreciation is like limited because of their lack of musical knowledge.

I suspect you place unfair limits on people.

[King Mark 2,924]

Well,if you can play the entire score to TESB and TOD in your head (including the orchestrations ,even if you don't know the exact names of the instruments) ) ,you are probably (too) deeply connected with the music.

[MSM 85]

Well,if you can play the entire score to TESB and TOD in your head (including the orchestrations ,even if you don't know the exact names of the instruments) ) ,you are probably deeply connected with the music.

No, you;re turning it the other way. I have never said this.

And the whole Zimmer vs Williams debate is not the same. This is a John Williams fan site , where people are allowed to think Williams is the best composer alive

Especially when it's true!

No - musician. Though difficult question. Non-musicians have difficulty naming what they like in music, and this tempers their appreciation. This is my experience with non-musicians in my environment.

And what exactly is your environment?

Just some of my family members, people at my work, some of my friends. Btw I think their appreciation is like limited because of their lack of musical knowledge.

I suspect you place unfair limits on people you know.

No maybe you don't understand me correctly. I just think that when people understand music, how it is built up, what components are there, what instruments are there, what the rules are, one can have a deeper experience listening to it. It is like with a language: when you now the grammar and understand the idiom and know some etymology, you can appreciate it much more. Or as with a sport: when you know the rules of football, you enjoy it much more watching a match than when you don;t.

Please don't burn me down, it;s just my personal view and maybe I am totally wrong.