Do you believe a non-musician can appreciate music as much as a trained musician is able to?

[King Mark 2,924]

I was speaking for myself about the ESB thing

Another example is those tirelessly working on these "expanded score" edits (such as TPM ,RotS) Those people have a deep connection with the music , because they have a real passion to do it in the first place (the "obsession" to find all the unreleased music ), and need to know by heart where everything goes. This is a much more "real world" connection than just claiming you are better because you know musical theory

And you don't need to know how to read sheet music for that

[Quintus 5,391]

No maybe you don't understand me correctly. I just think that when people understand music, how it is built up, what components are there, what instruments are there, what the rules are, one can have a deeper experience listening to it. It is like with a language: when you now the grammar and understand the idiom and know some etymology, you can appreciate it much more. Or as with a sport: when you know the rules of football, you enjoy it much more watching a match than when you don;t.

Please don't burn me down, it;s just my personal view and maybe I am totally wrong.

Fair enough. I disagree with you, but I won't argue with you and after all, why should I? I respect your honesty.

I honestly think some musicians think about music too much.

[Williamsfan301 11]

If you have a pair of functioning ears, you can appreciate music.

[MSM 85]

No maybe you don't understand me correctly. I just think that when people understand music, how it is built up, what components are there, what instruments are there, what the rules are, one can have a deeper experience listening to it. It is like with a language: when you now the grammar and understand the idiom and know some etymology, you can appreciate it much more. Or as with a sport: when you know the rules of football, you enjoy it much more watching a match than when you don;t.

Please don't burn me down, it;s just my personal view and maybe I am totally wrong.

Fair enough. I disagree with you, but I won't argue with you and after all, why should I? I respect your honesty.

I honestly think some musicians think about music too much.

Thanks. About the latter: I may agree there with you. As a musician it is sometimes difficult not to think about it, just to experience it.

[Quintus 5,391]

If you have a pair of functioning ears, you can appreciate music.

I don't think that is in dispute.

[MSM 85]

If you have a pair of functioning ears, you can appreciate music.

Sure, but the question is, who would appreciate more.

[Quintus 5,391]

I wonder, could a musician's/technician's understanding of their instrument actually hinder their listening experience? Could the "untrained" perhaps find music to be even more affecting than those who actually play it?

I imagine a rollercoaster engineer would find some thrill in the ride itself, but the inner workings of it would truly be his proverbial bread and butter. The best thing about the ride would be mostly lost on him, whilst the people who merely queued for the ride would alight with their hearts in their mouths.

[Wojo 2,442]

Then the question becomes what music is appreciated more by certain people. You could have a classically trained orchestra oboe player who can play any classical piece written for the oboe beautifully....but who is absolutely bored to death by that piece, after having played it hundreds of times. But a non-musician could hear it for the first time and be entranced by its beauty. So who appreciates that music more?

[Datameister 1,394]

The question presupposes that you can quantitatively compare how much ANY two people enjoy ANYthing. That's simply not the case. It's a lot more complicated than that. I mean, obviously, someone born without ears is going to have a hard time appreciating music like the rest of us. But that's quite an extreme.

Before I became a musician, I appreciated music in a lot more abstract ways. (I was also a lot younger, so I don't presume to know what the causality in all this is.) Learning to play piano, learning music theory, starting to arrange and study others' music, and writing a little of my own music has caused me to think about music in ways that are a lot more literal. I hear chord progressions, instrumentation choices, stuff like that, rather than feeling it on a purely visceral level. In some ways, I miss the way I experienced it back then. But the knowledge I have now is invaluable, too. It's just...different.

A non-musician cannot appreciate the technicalities of music as much as a trained musician can. But whether or not they can appreciate the music itself "as much" is completely unknowable and probably not even a valid question, IMO.

[Quintus 5,391]

Then the question becomes what music is appreciated more by certain people. You could have a classically trained orchestra oboe player who can play any classical piece written for the oboe beautifully....but who is absolutely bored to death by that piece, after having played it hundreds of times. But a non-musician could hear it for the first time and be entranced by its beauty. So who appreciates that music more?

The Oboe player should've stopped playing the piece and learned something new.

A non-musician cannot appreciate the technicalities of music as much as a trained musician can.

That is obvious, but also not what this thread is about.

[Wojo 2,442]

The oboe player was part of a symphony orchestra, and certain pieces in the repertoire got quite boring for her, so she quit that profession. When you're just a performer in the group, you don't get to pick the music. That's up to somebody else. You're just a cog in the machine.

The question isn't about pure appreciation, it's about degrees of appreciation. And I think it's an awfully hard question to qualify.

[Quintus 5,391]

I don't think of music as being anything like a machine. It seems some of the musicians think differently.

[Wojo 2,442]

I didn't say music is a machine. The orchestra is a machine, and the output is music. Each individual performer can only play so much, but combined on stage, with sheet music and an able director, can they make music. It's not a machine in the plug it in and go sense, but then again, it's a metaphor.

[Nick Parker 3,017]

I wonder, could a musician's/technician's understanding of their instrument actually hinder their listening experience? Could the "untrained" perhaps find music to be even more affecting than those who actually play it?

I imagine a rollercoaster engineer would find some thrill in the ride itself, but the inner workings of it would truly be his proverbial bread and butter. The best thing about the ride would be mostly lost on him, whilst the people who merely queued for the ride would alight with their hearts in their mouths.

I was going to use a huge Jaws analogy, but I decided not to. To me, Quint, that sounds like the phrase "Ignorance is bliss". I am not sure if I can argue my point reasonably enough, but I will try. I think a magician watching a video performance of his own show might be a good analogy. While wide-eyed children watch in amazement thinking "How did he do that?" or something to that effect, the magician is probably thinking, "Wow, I cannot believe how bad I messed that trick up. If only I had a few more days to rehearse!", and how hot the stage lights were, and about the stagehand who missed his cue, and so on and so forth. Obviously, the "ignorant" children derived more joy from the show than the learned magician did. I hope I conveyed the point well enough.

And I say "Yes, as an (untrained) musician".

[Smeagol 0]

Yes - as far as the emotions are concerned. No - in terms of the craft and technique.

- Derlis, musician

[Datameister 1,394]

That is obvious, but also not what this thread is about.

I'm aware of that - I addressed what this thread is about and also included what I believe is the only valid (albeit obvious and not entirely relevant) answer.

[Elmo Lewis 6]

I tremendously value non-professional viewers, listeners, readers... I miss enjoying a newspaper.

[Quintus 5,391]

I am not sure if I can argue my point reasonably enough, but I will try. I think a magician watching a video performance of his own show might be a good analogy. While wide-eyed children watch in amazement thinking "How did he do that?" or something to that effect, the magician is probably thinking, "Wow, I cannot believe how bad I messed that trick up. If only I had a few more days to rehearse!", and how hot the stage lights were, and about the stagehand who missed his cue, and so on and so forth. Obviously, the "ignorant" children derived more joy from the show than the learned magician did. I hope I conveyed the point well enough.

You did, beautifully so.

That is obvious, but also not what this thread is about.

I'm aware of that - I addressed what this thread is about and also included what I believe is the only valid (albeit obvious and not entirely relevant) answer.

Indeed you did. It's 33 past midnight here and I'm worn out. I need my bed.

[Jeshopk 8]

Being a musician or non musician is not a benchmark for the appreciation of music. It depends on the individual. I think a person's inherited belief system, whether from academia or just life, often inhibits their appreciation of music. Myself, I have always stayed pretty close to my "inner child" and so while I have built up musical knowledge, it is all in the service of the emotional reaction I had to music as a non musician.

Just in case that wasn't clear enough, I voted yes. When somebody bashes Williams and praises Zimmer, I feel the same way as how I will never understand how some men prefer transexuals. Not knocking it, or judging them, but I don't get it.

My main gripe now is that the style of modern film music has been dictated by popular trends, when its goals should be functional and dramatic. It goes along with our disposable culture - I hope a temporary result of the distribution system changing to digital download media.

[Quintus 5,391]

Yes.

[Henry B 49]

I was going to use a huge Jaws analogy, but I decided not to. To me, Quint, that sounds like the phrase "Ignorance is bliss". I am not sure if I can argue my point reasonably enough, but I will try. I think a magician watching a video performance of his own show might be a good analogy. While wide-eyed children watch in amazement thinking "How did he do that?" or something to that effect, the magician is probably thinking, "Wow, I cannot believe how bad I messed that trick up. If only I had a few more days to rehearse!", and how hot the stage lights were, and about the stagehand who missed his cue, and so on and so forth. Obviously, the "ignorant" children derived more joy from the show than the learned magician did. I hope I conveyed the point well enough.

And I say "Yes, as an (untrained) musician".

Conversely, the magician could beam with pride at how successful his performance was. Ignorance is not always bliss and knowledge is not always misery.

[Nick Parker 3,017]

And that is entirely possible, too.

[King Mark 2,924]

I have a craving for a meatball sub

[Williamsfan301 11]

The question presupposes that you can quantitatively compare how much ANY two people enjoy ANYthing. That's simply not the case. It's a lot more complicated than that. I mean, obviously, someone born without ears is going to have a hard time appreciating music like the rest of us. But that's quite an extreme.

Before I became a musician, I appreciated music in a lot more abstract ways. (I was also a lot younger, so I don't presume to know what the causality in all this is.) Learning to play piano, learning music theory, starting to arrange and study others' music, and writing a little of my own music has caused me to think about music in ways that are a lot more literal. I hear chord progressions, instrumentation choices, stuff like that, rather than feeling it on a purely visceral level. In some ways, I miss the way I experienced it back then. But the knowledge I have now is invaluable, too. It's just...different.

A non-musician cannot appreciate the technicalities of music as much as a trained musician can. But whether or not they can appreciate the music itself "as much" is completely unknowable and probably not even a valid question, IMO.

This argument seems strangely familiar.

[Datameister 1,394]

This argument seems strangely familiar.

Right you are. I forgot that people's ability to appreciate music is determined by how symmetrical they are.

[Williamsfan301 11]

This argument seems strangely familiar.

Right you are. I forgot that people's ability to appreciate music is determined by how symmetrical they are.

That's why Shannon Doherty can't appreciate music like we can.

[indy4 152]

As long as people have emotion, then they are all able to appreciate music equally. So that'd be a yes for me. Not really sure if I should vote musician or non-musician. I certainly don't know as much about musical theory as many here. On the other hand, I do know a bit of theory, and I can't imagine life without being a performer.

[Datameister 1,394]

As long as people have emotion, then they are all able to appreciate music equally.

What about an emotionally normal Australian Aborigene who finds no value in film scores whatsoever?

[Unlucky Bastard 7,765]

No. I'm a philistine who can't grasp the concept of music.

[indy4 152]

As long as people have emotion, then they are all able to appreciate music equally.

What about an emotionally normal Australian Aborigene who finds no value in film scores whatsoever?

That's true, people satisfy their emotions in different ways. I guess I'm just saying that musical knowledge doesn't affect it.

[Hlao-roo 388]

No. I'm a philistine who can't grasp the concept of music.

At least you have the courage to admit it.

[Jay 27,216]

I not a musician, can't read sheet music or play an instrument or even sing on key, and I appreciate greatly a lot of different types of music. That's about all I can say about the matter.

[Trent B 317]

I voted yes even though I'm a non musician. All though, I can play a Clarinet...but it's been a long time so I'm a little out of practice. However, I really do appreciate a lot of film scores from various composers.

[Williamsfan301 11]

That's true, people satisfy their emotions in different ways.

I like the sauce.

[airmanjerm 77]

I voted yes even though I'm a non musician. All though, I can play a Clarinet...but it's been a long time so I'm a little out of practice. However, I really do appreciate a lot of film scores from various composers.

Trent, I am a recovering clarinettist as well! Although my primary instrument as an undergrad was trumpet...seems like another lifetime ago!

I rarely weigh in on debates here, but I just thought I would add that I think there's a big difference in appreciating music and understanding the theoretical aspects of music. Anyone can appreciate anything...just in different ways. We teach Music Appreciation classes to those who aren't interested in Music Theory class. I've had some really fascinated Music Appreciation students who fell in love with "classical" music...and then I've known many Music Theory students who just hate it and want nothing to do with it.

Here's an example: I have been working on copying the score to Goldsmith's cue "The Enterprise" into Finale - not to make you all a great midi file (although it's coming! lol), but it helps me study compositional techniques. I mentioned this on another thread, but it's very interesting how Goldsmith gets such an interesting effect by combining the melody with nothing but a series of major chords that are placed into a pattern of recurring mediant and submediant relationships. There's not a single V-I progression (at least, not in a Dominant-Tonic relationship), and his use of Mixture is extremely simple (not "uneducated"). As a musician I think that is the most clever thing about this cue. When I just step back and listen to it though - withouth thinking of all the theory - I still just love the way it sounds and how it flows. I don't think a musician would appreciate the cue itself any better than a non-musician, just in a different way.

Even trained musicians can get into a heated debate about this sort of thing...the theorists vs. the composers vs. the conductors vs. the performers vs. the audio guys....none of them would appreciate that little six-minute cue the same way, either. Some of them would say it's a stunning cue; others (most likely the academic theorists) would scoff at its simplicity. Everybody thinks they're right, and unfortunately a lot of musicians come off as educated snobs. That's just the world of professional music, and it's something I despise. (I get that a lot from the "real" composers who look down at me because I write music for wind bands.)

I appreciate the work of a great chef, a good mechanic, and a great architect (like someone mentioned), but I don't begin to understand their craft the way I know my musical craft. And everyone can't be a musician...if it weren't for the non-musicians out there like some of you on this board, then no-talent hacks like me wouldn't have a career!

[Greg1138 2]

Yes, from a musician.

In fact, I would go as far as to say that a non-musician is capable of appreciating music MORE than a musician, for so many reasons. Otherwise, why do we do it in the first place?

[Quintus 5,391]

You can have a cookie.

[Jay 27,216]

Yes, from a musician.

In fact, I would go as far as to say that a non-musician is capable of appreciating music MORE than a musician, for so many reasons. Otherwise, why do we do it in the first place?

You know, that's an interesting point.

[Quintus 5,391]

Which is why he earned a cookie.

[Greg1138 2]

It's true...I would love to be able to listen to music without analysing, without the restraints such as listening for tuning, intonation, the whole "That was supposed to be a B-FLAT!!!" thing, etc etc - music is pure communication and it would be nice to hear the "Sentence" without knowing exactly how it's being said and appreciate the impact all the more for it - just being able to marvel at the experience with innocence....and I am jealous of people who have the means to do that....as a musician it is far too difficult, if not impossible, to just switch off....

This is just one reason, but there are others.....I could write a thesis on the subject!!