The official Hans Zimmer and MV-RCP sucks a$$ thread

[David Coscina 3]

So, since some of us get heat for spouting off our vitriole regarding everyone's reviled film composer, let's try to ascertain why we keep doing so. Even though the topic title implies or rather expects to garner the usual one-liners, I would like to thoughtfully probe WHY Zimmer is reviled so much, especially on this forum.

1. He hails from pop music background.

Okay, so is this really a crime? Danny Elfman also comes from Oingo Boingo and receives a lot less heat. WRONG. When Elfman first tackled Batman (1989) he was berated by the establishment and outright called a "guy who lazily gets orchestrators and conductors to write his music" by a professor of composition (Micah B. Rubenstein) in KEYBOARD magazine back in 1989 (to which Elfman wrote a thoughtful rebuttal save for the sentence where he calls Rubenstein a "dumb f*&^"). But Elfman's influences were Herrmann, Prokofiev, Shostakovich, Kurt Weill among others that obviously allowed him to draw from a richer harmonic and orchestral tapestry when he was doing such memorable scores like Edward Scissorhands, Dick Tracy, and The Nightmare Before Christmas. Also, Elfman HAS evolved throughout the years and has stretched beyond his more tonal bonds of his early film career. Aside from Steve Bartek and a conductor, he's done the composing himself. No 5 other composers listed on separate cues. While he also likes to use electronics, he retains an organic, acoustic sound to his music. He rarely doubles a French Horn with a CS80 or some such nonsense. Where Zimmer developed his trademark sound through outside sources (like patches on synthesizers or doubling things with synths), Elfman's sound has been signified by chordal or harmonic turn of phrases. He's also a much better contrapuntalist than ZImmer will ever hope to be. And because John Williams is so strong with this, it goes to the point that ardent Williams fans would not necessarily like the disparity in qualitative approach to making music.

This is really a loaded section because pop music also denotes simpler music structures. This is why I theorize ZImmer is so popular. His music is emotionally immediate. It's very palpable and digestible. There are never any big chunks to chew on and mull about. It's also very viscerally overwhelming which is also why I suspect people get so irate and defensive because a criticism of Zimmer is a criticism of their own feelings. Fair enough. I can accept this.

2. Zimmer employs various people to help complete a score

So, Hans Zimmer once upon a time was given a chance to enter the world of film scoring by Stanley Myers (the guy who is largely known for that lovely Cavatina from The Deer Hunter). In the spirit of "paying it forward" he create a place where he could bring untapped talent to the forefront. One of his first finds was Mark Mancina who we all know scored SPEED and then went on to a fairly decent career. He still is writing although seems to have distanced himself from MV. Anyhow, Mancina's resume was surprisingly stacked with rock credits having done some work with Keith Emerson among others from the prog rock generation. Hardly a novice by the time he got to Hollywood. Mancina also aided ZImmer in his Oscar winning Lion King score BTW. Later additions to Media Ventures were John Powell (whom I like and respect a fair bit), Harry Gregson-Williams, Jeff Rona (who had been writing excellent film scoring articles for years for KEYBOARD), Klaus Badelt, to more recent guys like Steve Jablonsky. If you read any one of their CVs, you will see a crapload of credits and experience in the music industry before they ever set foot in the hallowed hallways of Remote Control Productions. So, what Zimmer was in truth looking for were guys who had resumes that reflected they were proven commodities but not well enough known to garner attention to the fact that they would be assisting him (writing actual cues) for his projects. Once Zimmer's altruism turned to assembly line, it was a downturn in the film music industry were scores from any one of his underlings sounded exactly the same. Thus the homogenous, predictable age of scoring came prevalent in Hollywood. Another reason to dislike him.

3. Hans Zimmer HAS range

Er, no, his co-writers do. When you employ so many underlings, it's of course possible to have a sound the varies from score to score. But sadly, I personally can hear the same diminished to I chord cadence for every dramatic revelation in every one of his damned scores. What is really upsetting is that once in a while, Zimmer does come up with a interesting idea, like that ascending glide for The Dark Knight, because of the inclusion of so many hands in the pot, you cannot even give him props for it because it could be any one of his collaborators. Even in this case, the neat sound was borrowed from Elliot Goldenthal's infinitely superior HEAT (1995).

Now I will submit that tight deadlines and long scores have warranted collaborations throughout the history of Hollywood. Herrmann and Newman teamed up on The Egyptian, Goldsmith relied on Arthur Morton or Alexander Courage to flesh out his ideas in their orchestrations. Very few composers have actually "gone it alone" because it IS almost impossible to compose, orchestrate, conduct, record, a symphony's worth of music in 3 weeks. James Newton Howard has his own band of merry men he used for the breakneck scoring of King Kong (2005). Even Howard Shore, who does orchestrate his own scores, has assistants. In this business, you need supports. The question is, how entrenched are those supports in the creative process. Where Goldsmith or Shore or whomever still retained complete control of the notes they were putting to paper, Zimmer gets his mates to actually compose parts of the score. This render any singular style impotent and the musical continuity or "voice" of the film is derailed because you have different personalities approaching each scene independently. This makes it difficult to have some kind of inherent narrative flow and development of thematic ideas through the score which also explains why almost every moment from a MV score sounds like the big climax from the film (at least the blockbuster scores). It's because the one guy working on that single scene is treating it that way.

Okay, that's enough for now. Feel free to add to this. I DO HOPE that aside from my provocative topic title, we can keep this informative and constructive..

[QMM 4]

Good topic, I'd like to see what a serious discussion can provide.

Okay, that's enough for now. Feel free to add to this. I DO HOPE that aside from my provocative topic title, we can keep this informative and constructive..

Seriously

[Koray Savas 2,095]

In response to your pop music paragraph: It's not like Zimmer had no musical influences. Yes he started out in 80's pop, which is dreadful, but he has talked about his influences several times, even when I met him.

In response to the range paragraph: Zimmer does hold control over his music. It's not like he tells the additional composers to just do whatever as he goes somewhere else.

[Datameister 1,394]

This'll be interesting. Have fun in the sandbox, kiddies!

[Jeshopk 8]

I just don't like the whole idea of team scoring. The kind of music that has to be written in order for a film to be cohesively team scored is of a very generic nature. Also, I think the whole phenomenon of team scoring reveals the deep distrust that has developed between movie studios and composers. Studios don't want to deal with an expert craftsman with an opinion. They would rather delegate to a team of yes men who will impose no individual musical personality or artistic conviction.

Team scoring is producer as composer.

[Koray Savas 2,095]

As long as the music is good, I don't care how many people work on it. I think most of you dismiss the idea of collaboration too easily. Imagine if Jerry Goldsmith, John Williams, and Bernard Herrmann had composed a score together!

[Nick Parker 3,017]

John Williams and Jerry Goldsmith would not have lasted a week!

[Jacob 0]

I used to love MV music. Not so much anymore. The more I've listened the more I've become dissatisfied not only with the sameness of it all but the quality of the 'sound' itself.

[Hlao-roo 388]

Good topic, I'd like to see what a serious discussion can provide.

Okay, that's enough for now. Feel free to add to this. I DO HOPE that aside from my provocative topic title, we can keep this informative and constructive..

Seriously

I, too, think this can be interesting -- I think Fiery Angel and Jesse have already made some interesting points, and I suppose Koray can keep us honest. Unfortunately I haven't yet seen evidence that we have the collective maturity necessary for a serious discussion of this topic.

[Jeshopk 8]

As long as the music is good, I don't care how many people work on it. I think most of you dismiss the idea of collaboration too easily. Imagine if Jerry Goldsmith, John Williams, and Bernard Herrmann had composed a score together!

But the music isn't as good as the music of Goldsmith, Herrmann and Williams' individual efforts. I don't want to hear a score that those 3 composed together. If they all stuck to respective areas of the score, like one doing love scenes, one doing suspense and one doing action it could work, but who cares? It is arbitrary, and it would be less cohesive than one of them doing it. You could just put your ipod on shuffle and pretend.

Herrmann scored The Egyptian with Alfred Newman, and it goes unremembered compared to his signature scores that only he could have done alone - Psycho, Vertigo, Citizen Kane, etc.

[indy4 152]

I definitely up for intelligent debate on this matter, as long as I won't be accused of being hired by Zimmer or taking these criticisms personally.

1. He hails from pop music background.

Okay, so is this really a crime? Danny Elfman also comes from Oingo Boingo and receives a lot less heat. WRONG. When Elfman first tackled Batman (1989) he was berated by the establishment and outright called a "guy who lazily gets orchestrators and conductors to write his music" by a professor of composition (Micah B. Rubenstein) in KEYBOARD magazine back in 1989 (to which Elfman wrote a thoughtful rebuttal save for the sentence where he calls Rubenstein a "dumb f*&^"). But Elfman's influences were Herrmann, Prokofiev, Shostakovich, Kurt Weill among others that obviously allowed him to draw from a richer harmonic and orchestral tapestry when he was doing such memorable scores like Edward Scissorhands, Dick Tracy, and The Nightmare Before Christmas. Also, Elfman HAS evolved throughout the years and has stretched beyond his more tonal bonds of his early film career. Aside from Steve Bartek and a conductor, he's done the composing himself. No 5 other composers listed on separate cues. While he also likes to use electronics, he retains an organic, acoustic sound to his music. He rarely doubles a French Horn with a CS80 or some such nonsense. Where Zimmer developed his trademark sound through outside sources (like patches on synthesizers or doubling things with synths), Elfman's sound has been signified by chordal or harmonic turn of phrases. He's also a much better contrapuntalist than ZImmer will ever hope to be. And because John Williams is so strong with this, it goes to the point that ardent Williams fans would not necessarily like the disparity in qualitative approach to making music.

This is really a loaded section because pop music also denotes simpler music structures. This is why I theorize ZImmer is so popular. His music is emotionally immediate. It's very palpable and digestible. There are never any big chunks to chew on and mull about. It's also very viscerally overwhelming which is also why I suspect people get so irate and defensive because a criticism of Zimmer is a criticism of their own feelings. Fair enough. I can accept this.

And yet pop music is not hated for being simple, so why should film music? Some of the most popular ideas in film score history have been the simplest ones (eg Jaws). The nice thing about Zimmer's music is that, as you said, it is very palpable and digestible. It's not really something that'll grow on you, you either like it right off the bat or not. And I am generally more satisfied when I grow to love something, but hey, I don't think anybody here is claiming that Zimmer is better than certain composers (John Williams) who's music has a more lasting power. Is JW more technically proficient than Zimmer? Yes. Does that make his music more enjoyable? Yes. Does that make Zimmer's music unenjoyable? No way.

2. Zimmer employs various people to help complete a score

So, Hans Zimmer once upon a time was given a chance to enter the world of film scoring by Stanley Myers (the guy who is largely known for that lovely Cavatina from The Deer Hunter). In the spirit of "paying it forward" he create a place where he could bring untapped talent to the forefront. One of his first finds was Mark Mancina who we all know scored SPEED and then went on to a fairly decent career. He still is writing although seems to have distanced himself from MV. Anyhow, Mancina's resume was surprisingly stacked with rock credits having done some work with Keith Emerson among others from the prog rock generation. Hardly a novice by the time he got to Hollywood. Mancina also aided ZImmer in his Oscar winning Lion King score BTW. Later additions to Media Ventures were John Powell (whom I like and respect a fair bit), Harry Gregson-Williams, Jeff Rona (who had been writing excellent film scoring articles for years for KEYBOARD), Klaus Badelt, to more recent guys like Steve Jablonsky. If you read any one of their CVs, you will see a crapload of credits and experience in the music industry before they ever set foot in the hallowed hallways of Remote Control Productions. So, what Zimmer was in truth looking for were guys who had resumes that reflected they were proven commodities but not well enough known to garner attention to the fact that they would be assisting him (writing actual cues) for his projects. Once Zimmer's altruism turned to assembly line, it was a downturn in the film music industry were scores from any one of his underlings sounded exactly the same. Thus the homogenous, predictable age of scoring came prevalent in Hollywood. Another reason to dislike him.

I don't think this is necessarily a bad approach. At the end of the day, Zimmer is getting a paycheck to give director's a film score that works. If he hired totally new people who had no clue what the hell they were doing, with absolutely no experience whatsoever, then ultimately it would the directors/producers that got mad at him.

But this point seems irrelevant. I thought we were just talking about musical merit (although the thread title never really specifies), not moral issues. Maybe Zimmer is a jerk who hires people so he can take credit for their work. All I know is I like the CDs that say "Music by Hans Zimmer" on them, and if that Hans Zimmer is really a group of people it doesn't change how much I enjoy their work.

3. Hans Zimmer HAS range

Er, no, his co-writers do. When you employ so many underlings, it's of course possible to have a sound the varies from score to score. But sadly, I personally can hear the same diminished to I chord cadence for every dramatic revelation in every one of his damned scores. What is really upsetting is that once in a while, Zimmer does come up with a interesting idea, like that ascending glide for The Dark Knight, because of the inclusion of so many hands in the pot, you cannot even give him props for it because it could be any one of his collaborators. Even in this case, the neat sound was borrowed from Elliot Goldenthal's infinitely superior HEAT (1995).

Again, you're right in that it's not easy to tell who wrote what in HZ/MV scores. But I don't see why just that fact makes the score less enjoyable to listen to.

These are all rather deontological arguments (or the musical equivalence of that), in that you list a bunch of reasons why Zimmer's methods and background are bad. But shouldn't it really be about the end result, the music that he puts out there? At the end of the day that's all I'm really concerned about, that's going to make me buy or not buy his music.

[David Coscina 3]

I put forth the points simply to highlight the aspects of Zimmer that rub people the wrong way.

Indy4, concerning pop music and its simplicity being accepted, this is largely because of the genre. Pop music is popular music by definition. It appeals to a large demographic mostly because it is easily digestible music. Which of course is not "bad" but when you get into the arena of film scoring, which largely relies on the orchestra these day, than there's a built in expectation of an accompanied larger sense of form. Those composers grounded in formal composition have had to learn how to write in larger and more complex structures so they have (traditionally) been better suited in handling the over all form and narrative structure in their score that reflects the dramatic arc of the film. To be able to use various tools, it always works better to have a solid understanding of melodic, harmonic and rhythmic variation, and how to develop motives fully. This is what a composer does. t least this is the technical demands of such a job. I know there are many here who are resistant to the idea that music composition is mostly about perspiration and less with inspiration because it's not as romantic an ideal

Yes, JAWS has a simple hook. But look at the fantastically complex secondary themes Williams wrote, or even the set pieces he was prone to writing in the '70s. The Shark Cage Fugue is not just a guy who has technical chops but someone who had a lot of music resources at his command so he took a secondary theme and set it as that subject in a fugue which underlines the conflict both internal and external that was happening at that point of the film. It's a fantastic means with which to musically enhance the drama of the film. Nowadays, montages are accompanied by some cleverly marketed pop song injected into the score like product placement and has little to do with forwarding the film.

What does this have to do with Zimmer? Well, like Jesse said, he represents a body of people who are like the Borg from Star Trek, they are a musical collective. And actually, like the Borg, they assimilate anyone who enters their assembly line. Even James NEwton Howard who used to have his own sound, now at times can be indistinguishable from MV-RCP. How sad.

Not all scores have to be complex nor even orchestral. As I have said countless times, when Zimmer was kicking around in the '90s, I enjoyed his sound and approach because it was a contrast to other composers. Thelma and Louise is a good score. I don't think Williams or Goldsmith could have done better (okay, I think Jerry could have but that's another topic). Rain Man was also a fine score because it was different. I just find it ironic that Zimmer was largely employed at the beginning of his career because he was disparate from the sound that was omnipresent in Hollywood. Now it IS his sound that is dominant. I guess we're ready for another new"Zimmer"- someone who stands apart from the pack. Hey, maybe John Williams! More likely, someone like Jonny Greenwood who not only is a creative pop giant (okay, rock giant) but also has solid formal music chops. Yes, perhaps Greenwood represents the genesis of the complete musician. someone who skates between two styles and has a solid understanding and grounding from each one.

Hope some of this helps build on my initial post.

[Quintus 5,391]

[Hlao-roo 388]

(All the excitement over the content in this thread has tired poor Quint out.)

[David Coscina 3]

So much for trying to keep things constructive on this thread. Fine. Lesson learned. I'll move on.

[Ollie 859]

Eh it's the norm around here Dave, you give a good detailed reason and people still don't grasp it. In fact you're probably the only one who's given a decent defense Zimmer's music.

[Romão 1,931]

I agree with pretty much all Fiery Angel's arguments.

About the pop sensibility, I agree it sometimes does not leave anything left to chew on. You listen to it and can pretty much make a definitive opinion right of the bat. It's not rewarding in the long term, not the very least, and Zimmer's music is clearly lacking in this aspect.

However, someone like Poledouris also wrote with a somewhat pop sensibility, but his music felt so honest, so genuine that its emotional impact could be overwhelming. I don't find Zimmer's music nor honest nor genuine. It's industrial. It's an assembly line of pre determined sonorities. And while Zimmer can come up with some pretty great ideas (the Joker siren, Jack Sparrow's theme, among others), sometimes I find he is simply lacking in good taste, apart from any possible lack of deep musical knowledge. Jack Sparrow's theme is a good example. Very nice little tune, perfectly evocative of the character, which is completely ruined halfway the track by the standard RC wall of sound. And musical talent also shows in the ability of taking a good musical idea and making the most of it. Zimmer seldom does this, even when he has good musical ideas.

[Ollie 859]

Like I said in an earlier Zimmer thread, there's a 4-5 minute stretch in POTC:AWE where you get a glimpse of something different. Something enjoyable.

[Hlao-roo 388]

Not all scores have to be complex nor even orchestral. As I have said countless times, when Zimmer was kicking around in the '90s, I enjoyed his sound and approach because it was a contrast to other composers. Thelma and Louise is a good score. I don't think Williams or Goldsmith could have done better (okay, I think Jerry could have but that's another topic). Rain Man was also a fine score because it was different. I just find it ironic that Zimmer was largely employed at the beginning of his career because he was disparate from the sound that was omnipresent in Hollywood. Now it IS his sound that is dominant.

This sums up my chief frustration with Zimmer -- that the Media Ventures sound he originated has become the dominant aesthetic in Hollywood. I stated this in a previous thread, but Koray's only response was that the MV/RC sound is what producers want. Never mind that commercial demands, especially in Hollywood, have a tendency to confound and constrict the scope of artistic choices.

Dave, you absolutely capture the irony of Zimmer's status in Hollywood. In his early days, one might have called his sound singular, even quirky, in the context of mainstream film scoring. But as his sound has come to define and dictate the mainstream, not only has it lost its freshness, it's also lost the dramatic import it once had.

[Quintus 5,391]

(All the excitement over the content in this thread has tired poor Quint out.)

I'm here for recreational and fun purposes and not to indulge the dense ideologies of the "mightier than thou" contingent of the film music world. The only thing I will say is that some JW fans are clearly incredibly bitter about the fact that so many people love the new sound of film music, so much so that the only way they can deal with this crime against humanity is to constantly berate the man who they see as the god father of the new movement. These people are seriously passionate in their hatred, which whilst being a complete waste of time, is also strangely amusing; I genuinely think they need to get their dicks sucked and release the tension. I honestly don't care enough about the medium to type up a lengthy dissertation in defense of Zimmer's music, I really don't, but I do care enough to be a fly on the wall and laugh at how unbelievably dismal the naysayers truly are. I stopped reading the opening essay of the thread when it suggested that music borne of pop, or "Oingo Boingo" (oh dear) beginnings is inherently lesser and such music cannot expect to be instantly digestible AND good at the same time. I stopped there because I can only read so much sh*te on a Saturday afternoon.

And one final word from me: over time I've learned that JW fans are often some of the most repugnant music fans I've ever encountered. Their eternal need to attack people like Hans Zimmer is a reprehensible and downright ugly trait, indeed it is little wonder new users on this board fail stick around for very long. I mean, we all claim to be fans of film music, but some aren't that at all. Not by a long shot. Some think the music should be written with the enthusiast in mind, f*ck the movie - the fans are owed a good score. And that says it all, as does the title and content of this horrible thread.

Quint out.

[Maxxie 1]

I'm here for recreational purposes and fun and not to indulge the dense ideologies of the "mightier than thou" contingent of the film music world. The only thing I will say is that some JW fans are clearly incredibly bitter about the fact that so many people love the new sound of film music, so much so that the only way they can deal with this crime against humanity is to constantly berate the man who they see as the god father of the new movement. These people are seriously passionate in their hatred, which whilst being a complete waste of time, is also strangely amusing; I genuinely think they need to get their dicks sucked and release the tension. I honestly don't care enough about the medium to type up a lengthy dissertation in defense of Zimmer's music, I really don't, but I do care enough to be a fly on the wall and laugh at how unbelievably dismal the naysayers truly are. I stopped reading the opening essay of the thread when it suggested that music borne of pop, or "Oingo Boingo" (oh dear) beginnings is inherently lesser and such music cannot expect to be instantly digestible AND good at the same time. I stopped there because I can only read so much sh*te on a Saturday afternoon.

And one final word from me: over time I've learned that JW fans are often some of the most repugnant music fans I've ever encountered. Their eternal need to attack people like Hans Zimmer is a reprehensible and downright ugly trait, indeed it is little wonder new users on this board fail stick around long. I mean, we all claim to be fans of film music, but some aren't that at all. Not by a long shot. Some think the music should be written with the enthusiast in mind, f*ck the movie - the fans are owed a good score. And that says it all, as does the title and content of this horrible thread.

Quint out.

Agreed 100% Quint. WELL SAID!

[Koray Savas 2,095]

Nice.

[Smeagol 0]

John Williams and Jerry Goldsmith would not have lasted a week!

Exactly. And that's because each of them has a very distinctive and individual voice. Zimmer and his buddies can write a score together because none of them has a distinctive and individual style, or at least, that's not what they were hired for.

And I said this before on another thread: Look at Williams', Goldsmith's and all the other big guys' output, the immense amount of music they wrote on each project, on their own.

I'm pretty sure that you could take all of Zimmer's scores, ALL of them, and he probably still wouldn't have written half as much music as Williams or Goldsmith or anybody else with enough talent to write a coupole hours of music on his/her own.

I haven't read the whole thread yet. I'm reliving my childhood with Ocarina of Time this weekend. But I'll be back later to write a more detailed response.

[Ollie 859]

I'd suggest some of misguided people spend sometime at the Bernard Herrmann forums or FSM.

JWFAN won't seem that bad by comparison. Of course it amuses me that those who throw around accusations of behavior here are just as guilty of being asses themselves.

[Quintus 5,391]

As a middle-of-the-road enjoyer of film music, I have no interest in visiting other film composer boards. I have no interest in comparing spite with more spite. I chose this place simply because JW is top of his field and the website had his name in it. And I'm well aware that I can dish it out, but let me be unquestionably straight on this: I'm here laughs, I'm never being serious. As I stated earlier, I don't care enough about all this to be anything else. I will never ponder the reasons why somebody likes Hans Zimmer and then go further by actually writing up a totally pointless diatribe about it. I don't like George Lucas and I wouldn't invest that much time and effort into him either. I think we all have different motivations in life, funnily enough.

Quint, over and out.

[Ollie 859]

Some of us are more serious about film music.

I have no problem with people criticizing film music. I've seen Zimmer get ripped just as bad, if not worse, at other sites.

[Richard Penna 2,083]

Very well said Quint.

I think Fiery Angel's approach has been the most sensible and adult approach to this debate we've ever had.

I do think it's important to distinguish the method from the output though. Yes, most of us think that, for example, the process on the first PotC score was a mess. Granted, the output wasn't great, but it's clear that most people at MV do have talent. It's just getting that talent out that perhaps isn't working quite as we'd like.

On the other hand, breaking into the scoring business must be one of the hardest things you can do, and Zimmer is at least giving a headstart.

[indy4 152]

I put forth the points simply to highlight the aspects of Zimmer that rub people the wrong way.

But I don't think these are the aspects that makes people avoid his CDs in the store. It's the end result, the music, that people like or hate, and whether HZ has 10 people writing it or not isn't going to make people buy/ignore it.

Indy4, concerning pop music and its simplicity being accepted, this is largely because of the genre. Pop music is popular music by definition. It appeals to a large demographic mostly because it is easily digestible music. Which of course is not "bad" but when you get into the arena of film scoring, which largely relies on the orchestra these day, than there's a built in expectation of an accompanied larger sense of form. Those composers grounded in formal composition have had to learn how to write in larger and more complex structures so they have (traditionally) been better suited in handling the over all form and narrative structure in their score that reflects the dramatic arc of the film. To be able to use various tools, it always works better to have a solid understanding of melodic, harmonic and rhythmic variation, and how to develop motives fully. This is what a composer does. t least this is the technical demands of such a job. I know there are many here who are resistant to the idea that music composition is mostly about perspiration and less with inspiration because it's not as romantic an ideal

I go to different composers when I want different type of satisfaction. HZ does give that immediate satisfaction, I agree with you there, but it's sort of like choosing to watch Raiders of the Lost Ark over The Godfather. Do I think that the former is more geniously crafted, more carefully constructed, more deep than the latter? Not really. But at times I want that easy to digest, simple enjoyement. If I'm in the mood to really think, to be blown away but to take some time to do so, then I'll listen to Saving Private Ryan. If I just want some quick fun, I'll pull out PotC. My point with this is that HZ may not be as sophisticated as JW etc., but that doesn't mean his music is less enjoyable.

Not all scores have to be complex nor even orchestral. As I have said countless times, when Zimmer was kicking around in the '90s, I enjoyed his sound and approach because it was a contrast to other composers. Thelma and Louise is a good score. I don't think Williams or Goldsmith could have done better (okay, I think Jerry could have but that's another topic). Rain Man was also a fine score because it was different. I just find it ironic that Zimmer was largely employed at the beginning of his career because he was disparate from the sound that was omnipresent in Hollywood. Now it IS his sound that is dominant. I guess we're ready for another new"Zimmer"- someone who stands apart from the pack. Hey, maybe John Williams! More likely, someone like Jonny Greenwood who not only is a creative pop giant (okay, rock giant) but also has solid formal music chops. Yes, perhaps Greenwood represents the genesis of the complete musician. someone who skates between two styles and has a solid understanding and grounding from each one.

I will also agree with you here--I hate how Zimmer's sound has been spread so far throughout the film score world, it destroys a lot of the diversity it once held. But I still like the style of music in small doses (or smaller doses than what we're getting today).

[BLUMENKOHL 1,064]

Good points, Angel.

Despite our debate in the other Zimmer-related thread, believe it or not I actually agree with many of your points. I don't agree with your consensus.

My main issue is that a lot of times people who tend to criticize Zimmer or the likes there-of tend to come across as waging a battle against what they perceive as simplicity, and in some cases what really is simplicity. And when you apply the stringent rules of a single school of thought (in this case modern-classical music) and use it as the basis for judging music, you are introducing an inherent bias into the analysis. It's like putting a black man in court against a racist jury. He lost before the case even started.

At the end of the day music is a form of communication. There is nothing else to it. And I think, frankly, it's efficacy and complexity comes out of what it can communicate to you. The single repeating note of Herrman's shower scene for Psycho hold more for me than Bruckner's entire collected works.

The funny thing, Fiery Angel, is that I know for a fact we both are thinking the same exact thing. But the reasoning is very different. You are arguing using the volume of notes and the rules of classical music, which I think is not the way to go about it.

Zimmer's music isn't as strong as John Williams, not because he is not applying the rules of western classical music theory, but because he clearly does not put as much thought into his music as someone like John Williams, Elfman, or Goldsmith. Herrmann might have written down a simple note for the shower scene, but the process that landed him there was one that clearly took thought and an understanding of his audience. There was a thought-process that brought him to that end. Now his background in music theory might have helped him with it, but was it a set condition or necessity? No.

You know I think some of Picasso's works are much more powerful than the works of for instance rococo artists that used 50 times as many strokes of the brush. Why? Because those artists didn't put much thought behind those 50 times as many strokes.

Zimmer's music often times very clearly lacks that thought. And I think that's where formal training does help. Not in the rules it teaches you, but the thought-processes. But people can have those processes without having a formal background.

And in the end I think that's what sets apart someone like John Williams from someone like Zimmer. Not simplicity, not how many years of formal training, the volume of notes, or the application of harmonic theories but the willingness and capacity to sit down and think about what they are doing and why they are doing it, how they will do it, etc.

[David Coscina 3]

Thanks guys for the responses. Most of them were quite articulate and certainly gave me a different insight to where you are coming from. Sadly, there were others that responded in the most crude fashion I have ever encountered on this forum. I will have to think long and hard as to whether it's honestly worth continuing to contribute or even voice my opinion here if this is the kind of flack I can expect to run into if my ideas run counter to others. Koray, if you can find a quote from me where I belittled a fellow forum member to the same degree as Quint did, please do so and i will retract this statement.

Over and out.

[Muad'Dib 1,514]

According to Upcomingflimscores, Hans is going to score "Sherlock Holmes", which is coming this year... In my opinion, this is a terrible choice, because Sherlock Holmes should be represented with the good ol' jazz...

[Nick Parker 3,017]

Forgive me for being off-topic, but Sherlock Holmes should be represented by "Victorian" music more than anything else. Nice discussion, by the way, I wish I could contribute.

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

It doesnt matter, as Zimmer will 'reinvent' the victorian period music sound! :l

[Hlao-roo 388]

Forgive me for being off-topic, but Sherlock Holmes should be represented by "Victorian" music more than anything else. Nice discussion, by the way, I wish I could contribute.

This thread needs an hourly injection of civility and good will to keep people's heads screwed on tight, so even posts like this one are welcome.

So, while we're all pretending we're talking on two-way radios, do you copy?

It doesnt matter, as Zimmer will 'reinvent' the victorian period music sound! :l

Uh-huh, and would you like to expand on your apparent concerns with this "reinvention" process?

[Ollie 859]

According to Upcomingflimscores, Hans is going to score "Sherlock Holmes", which is coming this year... In my opinion, this is a terrible choice, because Sherlock Holmes should be represented with the good ol' jazz...

Well it is a Guy Ritchie film, can't say he's really done anything to impress me.

[Henry B 49]

In terms of originality, I no longer believe that Zimmer should be derided for reusing ideas. The "great" composers did this all the time: Bach, Haydn and Mozart were total self-plagiarists. The thing is, in most cases this "plagiarism" led to fresh, interesting music. Williams does it too; the Hook prologue theme in "Across the Stars" or "Across the Stars" in the Catch Me If You Can main theme, for example. When it really comes down to it, what's the big deal? Why does borrowing a few notes make a piece illegitimate? There's so much music out there that it's complete naivete to think that even the best composers can avoid repeating themselves or somebody else from time to time.

That said... nuts to Zimmer. It isn't his reuse of melodies or harmonies that bothers me, it's his reuse of tone. Nearly every score he writes has the same oppressive machismo and epic overreach. It's so self-important sounding. Sure, his simplistic technical skills lend themselves to such repetition, but as another member pointed out, Poledouris wrote in a "pop" style and still managed to sound creative. Frankly, I feel a little offended when I listen to Zimmer because I hear so much ego in it. Stravinsky could get away with ego, sure, but Zimmer? I think the difference is that Stravinsky had the genius and work ethic to back up his arrogance. Zimmer is lazy and he knows it. I believe he quipped that he comes into work at noon, sits around drinking coffee and hanging out, then leaves at six. That's just not very productive.

[Ollie 859]

I just think the man is a terrible composer and doesn't write any good music. I find the Zimmer school of composing to be cheesy, power anthems are so overused and cheap sounding, and I do not like the idea of synths overshadowing the orchestra or imitating instruments that are already playing. There's nothing wrong with using synths, but if your plan is to have them overshadow the orchestra then you might as well ditch the live players and just go with electronics.

If that makes seem like an elitist JWFAN, well I can live with it.

[John Crichton 4]

I just think the man is a terrible composer and doesn't write any good music. I find the Zimmer school of composing to be cheesy, power anthems are so overused and cheap sounding, and I do not like the idea of synths overshadowing the orchestra or imitating instruments that are already playing. There's nothing wrong with using synths, but if your plan is to have them overshadow the orchestra then you might as well ditch the live players and just go with electronics.

If that makes seem like an elitist JWFAN, well I can live with it.

I wish I had said that.

It's at the point (beyond, actually) that I don't care discussing it anymore. And if that makes me a snob, then so be it.

[Richard Penna 2,083]

I do not like the idea of synths overshadowing the orchestra or imitating instruments that are already playing. There's nothing wrong with using synths, but if your plan is to have them overshadow the orchestra then you might as well ditch the live players and just go with electronics.

I don't like that either. But you're forgetting that a lot of his recent scores have had almost no synths in the final recorded performances Da Vinci Code and PotC: AWE, I believe, to name a few). It's just his recording style that makes them still sound synthy.

but I do care enough to be a fly on the wall and laugh at how unbelievably dismal the naysayers truly are.

I'm laughing at you Mark.

And Joey, when he's around and not trying to flush LC down the toilet.

[Koray Savas 2,095]

It's the end result, the music, that people like or hate, and whether HZ has 10 people writing it or not isn't going to make people buy/ignore it.

I actually think it does because so many people constantly use the "assembly line" thing as a sleight against RCP.

[Datameister 1,394]

But you're forgetting that a lot of his recent scores have had almost no synths in the final recorded performances Da Vinci Code and PotC: AWE, I believe, to name a few). It's just his recording style that makes them still sound synthy.

But what counts is the final sound, not the way it's produced. If it sounds like an orchestral synth, someone who doesn't like the sound of orchestral synths won't like it. Doesn't matter if it came from a real instrument.

And AWE definitely does use synth percussion and so forth. The strings, brass, and (limited) woodwinds sound like they're mostly real, but Zimmer definitely doesn't buy into more traditional styles of orchestration and recording and mixing, as you said.

- Datameister, who's still trying to avoid bringing his own (thoroughly mixed) opinions into this debate.

[Ollie 859]

That's ok richuk, I usually laugh my ass off when I read quite a few posts around here.

[Jeshopk 8]

The only thing I care about is whether the profession of film scoring still attracts and sustains serious composers who don't have to follow the crowd in order to earn a living. The team scoring/MV phenomenon has slightly put a damper on that, but I don't see it as permanent. One thing that is sad to me is hearing even a unique composer like Carter Burwell being influenced to change his style in this direction for Twilight. Elfman is adapting as well.

I think that studios are nervous, like they were in between the fall of the golden age studio system and the emergence of the modern blockbuster. I think the result in both time periods is that film music becomes more influenced by the pop of the time. Every element of aesthetic takes as few risks as possible when film making becomes a risky venture.

[Datameister 1,394]

One thing that is sad to me is hearing even a unique composer like Carter Burwell being influenced to change his style in this direction for Twilight. Elfman is adapting as well.

I haven't noticed it with Elfman, but certainly with Silvestri. And that's indeed one thing I don't want to happen to the industry, no matter who the trendsetter is. I wouldn't even want every composer to be expected to conform to John Williams' sound! Obviously, I think it'd be cool to hear more scores in that vein, but ultimately, the best music is going to emerge if every (good) composer is given the freedom to write in his or her own style.

[Nick Parker 3,017]

The only thing with Danny Elfman I can possibly think of would be perhaps The Kingdom (yuck), and maybe Wanted, though that seemed more like a return to his "roots" more than anything else, I would say.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,765]

So all these good composers are being turned into RC zombies?? It's a voodoo curse I tells ya!

[Koray Savas 2,095]

Elfman + Synths =

[Jeshopk 8]

The only thing with Danny Elfman I can possibly think of would be perhaps The Kingdom (yuck), and maybe Wanted, though that seemed more like a return to his "roots" more than anything else, I would say.

With Elfman, he will always retain his musical personality, but if you listen to his interviews and listen to how his music has changed in Wanted and Kingdom, it seems pretty clear he was bending his style to suit modern demands. He's done it before, but with more personal finesse, as in Civil Action and Mission Impossible. Give me pure Elfman any day rather than crossbreeding him with whatever expectations are going on today. Looking forward to Wolfman and Alice in Wonderland more than T2, which will likely have some very heavy McGrooves.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,765]

Elfman + Synths =

Wisdom from 1988 is right up your alley.

[King Mark 2,924]

The only thing I care about is whether the profession of film scoring still attracts and sustains serious composers who don't have to follow the crowd in order to earn a living. The team scoring/MV phenomenon has slightly put a damper on that, but I don't see it as permanent.

yeah ,when the typical MV music comes on in a trailer it's almost laughable .Beware :mediocre CGI crapfest coming soon.

I think Ben Stiller got it when he used that music for the fake trailers in Tropic thunder