In what instances is the use of synthesizers in film music inappropriate?*

[Williamsfan301 11]

I never liked that "wolf howl" sound Horner used in the Zorro movies. A simple cymbal crash would have been enough.

that's a shakuhachi flute. It's Japanese and it's real, not electronic.

Horner uses that lick as a "stinger" in a few of his scores. Not to start that age old debate again either.

Is THAT what that is? I did not know that. I stand corrected, then.

[Wojo 2,453]

I actually bought Ladyhawke.

[Jay 37,340]

What do people think of the synths in the Magic Tree cue from Empire?

[A24 4,331]

Ladyhawke springs to mind.

At the time it may have looked like a good idea, but it dates the film horribly.

You can count Legend with the Tangerine Dream score in that as well. Except in that case even then it looked like a bad idea.

BTW, it's not the synths, it's the rock drums that were a bad idea. The film starts with synths - everything is still fine - but then the rock drums and orchestra burst in ... Yikes!

Alex

[airmanjerm 78]

Could a great composer have made a synth score work for Amadeus?

No.

First, it was already a great composer who wrote most of that music. (lol!)

Second...more importantly...it is impossible to perfectly recreate the sounds of original instruments with synths (no matter how good you are at imitiating thhe authentic sounds with samples, etc.)

[A24 4,331]

So, is the 'woosh' from Supergirl the only inappropriate usage of synth we can find? Is the synth gaining popularity again?

Alex

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

So, is the 'woosh' from Supergirl the only inappropriate usage of synth we can find? Is the synth gaining popularity again?

Alex

I challenge this blasphemous accusation! Besides, the whooshes are emphasized on the Silva album due to strange mixing decisions for that release. On the OST and in the film, you hardly hear it.

[Quintus 5,399]

BTW, it's not the synths, it's the rock drums that were a bad idea.

Which sound absolutely ace in Flash Gordon.

[Datameister 2,041]

JP was only in a few cues, and it was well mixed and appropriate for those scenes. The orchestra was always at the forefront.

It's definitely well mixed and appropriate, I agree, but I need to point out that synths were called for in nearly every single cue. Because they were used so tastefully and (often) so quietly, you don't notice them, but they're there a lot of the time.

As for my opinions on synths in general...I try not to have one. If I like the way something sounds, I like it. If not, I don't. In practice, I tend to have a little bit of a bias against synths, but obviously it's not a very strong one...after all, the aforementioned Jurassic Park is one of my favorite scores, and I do have some very synth-heavy Zimmer in my collection, even including Drop Zone, which ONLY uses orchestral synths and electric guitar.

And in response to your ESB question, Jason, I don't like the first synth passage (which I believe was dialed out in the film mix), but the next part when the pitch wavers is fun.

[Jacob 0]

Ladyhawke springs to mind.

At the time it may have looked like a good idea, but it dates the film horribly.

Practically ruins it for me.

[Luke Skywalker 1,794]

What do people think of the synths in the Magic Tree cue from Empire?

I never noticed it until i heard the gerhardt re-recording, where it is more prominent.

I dont mind it as it adds to the spooky atmosphere of the scene.

Ig the gerhardt version has been in the movie, i would have mixed feelings though. The re-recording is a nice cue anyway.

[Marian Schedenig 8,191]

JP was only in a few cues, and it was well mixed and appropriate for those scenes.

There's synths in nearly the entire score.

The orchestra was always at the forefront.

Agreed.

[Hlao-roo 389]

Could a great composer have made a synth score work for Amadeus?

No.

First, it was already a great composer who wrote most of that music. (lol!)

Second...more importantly...it is impossible to perfectly recreate the sounds of original instruments with synths (no matter how good you are at imitiating thhe authentic sounds with samples, etc.)

Well, I was speculating about a completely different approach from reusing music composed by the biopic's main subject. I'm not sure it's ever been done before, and probably with good reason.

[Trent B 337]

A few years ago I always thought Goldsmith's synthesizers were annoying in his scores but now I enjoy them and they work rather really well, especially in his Star Trek scores.

[airmanjerm 78]

Not to bring the anti-CGI debate into this thread, but I've often thought of synths as the musical equivalent of CGI.

Sometimes, a ton of it is OK for the mood/theme/etc. the movie is trying to convey. Other times, it seems like a cheap way out. (Please, no pro/anti-CGI flaming...this is easily my own opinion.) Respighi used a recorded bird call in "The Pines of Rome"...surely, a pre-synth type of "synth."

The best way to "disguise" a synth is to mix it down underneath real instruments playing that part already. Orchestrators (and composers too, I guess) add them in frequently in cases where perhaps the budget won't allow a 4th or 5th trumpet player in the orchestra, etc. We're of course not talking about scores the size of some big John Williams extravaganza like any of the SW prequels, etc. This is more for smaller films with more limited budgets.

If you have 3 trumpet players, but need a 4th, you can synth in the 4th. When you do that, the synth sound will be heard (depending on how strong it is in the mix), but the articulations, phrasing, and other hard-to-simulate parts of the music will take on the character of the live instruments. This is, of course, not the situation when the synth part is supposed to be some prominent "effect" sound, whether pitched or not.

I know this isn't really the exact point of this thread, just thought it was a fun little "aside."

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I actually like that comparison.

[Marian Schedenig 8,191]

I do, too, although it probably shouldn't be taken too literally. Or perhaps you could could liken synths to CGI and special effects in general to "unusual instruments" in general. Often, CGI is used simply to replace "traditional" effects, and depending on the amount and quality, it may easily go completely unnoticed.

As for mixing synths and real instruments, this piece by Chris shows how much a few overdubbed recordings of a solo violin can do for a piece otherwise made up of samples.

[Williamsfan301 11]

So, what about Erich Kunzel's use of synth effects, like the Cincinnati Pops recording of The Klingon Battle?

[Ollie 1,059]

Not a very good substitute for the blaster beam.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

As for mixing synths and real instruments, this piece by Chris shows how much a few overdubbed recordings of a solo violin can do for a piece otherwise made up of samples.

I apologize for repeatedly mentioning this score, but Peter McConnell mixed real instruments and snythesized ones to great effect in Grim Fandango, I think.

[A24 4,331]

Tron is an interesting orchestal/synths score.

Has anyone already mentioned Goldsmith's Legend?

The Mosquito Coast is another all-synth score by Jarre.

Alex

[bondo 33]

In response to the title: never.

Music is an art, and is open to interpretation. One person can say something is appropriate while another says it is not. When it comes to film music, we have stereotypes that tell us what to expect in certain genres. However these are just expectations and nothing more.

[A24 4,331]

In response to the title: never.

Music is an art, and is open to interpretation. One person can say something is appropriate while another says it is not.

If music is art, then why would the person trying to limit it be more right?

Alex

[Datameister 2,041]

In response to the title: never.

Music is an art, and is open to interpretation. One person can say something is appropriate while another says it is not. When it comes to film music, we have stereotypes that tell us what to expect in certain genres. However these are just expectations and nothing more.

A totally fair response. But what if the title were In what instances does the use of synthesizers in film music seem inappropriate to you?

[Jeshopk 8]

I think there is room for new created instruments which meld better with the orchestra. If we look at how far synthesizing a real orchestra has come, we can see the potential of creating totally new instruments that sound organic. It is all in the details, such as subtle bending between notes, imperfections over time, randomization of pitch, timbre, volume and attack. The worst is when a synth sounds like plastic emptiness, unless that is the desired effect.

Imagine creating a real instrument that is impractically huge for any real time performance - for instance 100 foot tall tuning forks - but making it practical for performance through sampling.

Also, think of how impractical it would be to perform chromatic harp passages, even on two harps, but how a sampled harp actually sounds very good and has that ability.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

BTW, it's not the synths, it's the rock drums that were a bad idea. The film starts with synths - everything is still fine - but then the rock drums and orchestra burst in ... Yikes!

Alex

True!

Apart from Genesis, all Prog Rock was rubbish anyway!

[A24 4,331]

The progs will strongely disagree with you, Steef. In fact, progs probably think of Genesis as ordinary radio music.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Hey man, Phil Collins is a musical genius!

[A24 4,331]

He's a good drummer and he used to have a good voice.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Mozart, Einstein, Collins, Stephen Hawkins!

[Williamsfan301 11]

I remember...the worry worry....

Do do...da do...da do....da do....dah doo

[Delorean90 42]

BTW, it's not the synths, it's the rock drums that were a bad idea. The film starts with synths - everything is still fine - but then the rock drums and orchestra burst in ... Yikes!

Alex

True!

Apart from Genesis, all Prog Rock was rubbish anyway!

B.S.! Yes's Fragile and Close to the Edge are terrific, especially the title piece on the latter; it's literally like a rock symphony.

As for the synths...I'm pulling out the old rotted horse carcass and I've got my sledgehammer. I think there were cases in the new Batman films where they worked (I like the little gesture at the start of the mountain climbing cue in Begins, Joker's siren worked pretty well, although I think it would be cool if that was like a parallel to Batman's two-note call, and he also had a full-out melody to utilize as well), but there were times where it was grating, and it sounded too much like they were just trying to be bada$$, and IMO failed--see the first scene with Lucius in Begins.

I will universally say that I just don't like prominent synthestra at all. I fail to see why Zimmer, when he has an expensive orchestra at his disposal, insists on doing whatever he does to make it sound fake. It's just lame.

Yes, Alan, you were quite naive.

[A24 4,331]

Early Pink Floyd ain't too shabby either. (they are considered prog, no?)

[Quintus 5,399]

Yes they are.

[Vaderbait1 1]

Not sure about 1492 or Alexander but Chariots of Fire has made Vangelis immortal. The theme of 'The Running Men On The Beach' had the same effect on pop culture as Also Sprach Zarathustra had after 2001: A Space Odyssey. Inappropriate? I think it worked. Heck, it's the only thing of the movie that I remember.

Alex

The music is good, btu the sound is horrible. Chariots of Fire, etc would have been better without all the synth. That's my opinion on 90% of the synth, too. It always sounds so cheesy and hollow. Synth is okay sometimes, but usually it just detracts because you think of how great the music could have been with a little heart behind it.

[Marian Schedenig 8,191]

Early Pink Floyd ain't too shabby either.

Nor is later.

[Hlao-roo 389]

you think of how great the music could have been with a little heart behind it.

I feel that way about a great many orchestral scores.

[airmanjerm 78]

OK the best synth-reliant score:

ROCKY IV!!!!

Well, it's a good source of inspiration about the 8th round of hitting the heavy bag....lol

[A24 4,331]

Early Pink Floyd ain't too shabby either.

Nor is later.

I cannot listen to later Pink Floyd, nor to David Gilmour solo. I love their early period just after Barret.

Synth is okay sometimes, but usually it just detracts because you think of how great the music could have been with a little heart behind it.

The heart is not found in the instrument.

Alex

[Marian Schedenig 8,191]

Early Pink Floyd ain't too shabby either.

Nor is later.

I cannot listen to later Pink Floyd, nor to David Gilmour solo. I love their early period just after Barret.

I love stuff like High Hopes and Wish You Were Here. And Gilmour's solo performances often top the "originals" there.

[Datameister 2,041]

I think we tend to underestimate the use of synths in other Williams scores, too. For example, "The Map Room: Dawn" uses a Fender Rhodes piano (technically an electric piano, not a synthesizer) and an ARP synthesizer. They're just used so subtly and so tastefully that you don't think about it. (For a more obvious use of the ARP in Raiders, take a listen to the part of "The Idol Temple" when the strings all start doing random glissandos up and down - there's a vibraphone-like sound in the background that plays a faint, slow melody, and that's synthesized.)

[Elmo Lewis 6]

I cannot listen to later Pink Floyd, nor to David Gilmour solo. I love their early period just after Barret.

That is very true.

-Tom, who has a soft spot for the "bird wailing" sound effect Goldsmith threw on the Kinglon theme in the end credits of The Final Frontier. Movie version.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Trekkie!

[Elmo Lewis 6]

Your point being?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

No point intended.

BTW, isn't that just a ram's horn?

[Elmo Lewis 6]

I wouldn't know.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Don't you know Planet Of The Apes?

[Elmo Lewis 6]

Patton is the earliest Goldsmith score I own.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

You should get Planet of The Apes at least, and Christus Apollo.

When in the right mood (artificially enduced or not), they can be wonderfull experiences.

[Elmo Lewis 6]

Note taken. I've been needing some new film music for a while now.