Michael Giacchino's Star Trek

[fommes 153]

Excellent findings, everyone. So if I understand correctly, besides the known issues (choir + main & opening titles), this Varèse release is excellent and will have practically everything?

Too bad that Flask at Hand is apparently not one of the alternate titles...

Jay, could you perhaps add a few notes regarding editing the score into an ideal C&C edition to your opening post (which I added to the C&C thread)? (I mean: which tracks to substitute with the clean endings from the OST, which tracks to mix together, which tracks are wrongly mixed together in the DE, etc.) Thanks!

[Jay 37,281]

The Varese D.E. is already chronological, and its already complete in the sense that it contains ONE version of every cue. The problems are that many cues have multiple versions (some just with additional overlays... some completely rewritten), none of which is represented on the set.

The slash marks I put at the end of a cue name indicate that it was meant to be combined with the following track. IE one line says "Hangar Management / " and the next line says "Enterprising Young Men"

[fommes 153]

Yeah, but I was thinking more of wrong overlaps on the DE and acoustic shifts in OST vs Deluxe and all that. I'm getting lost in these threads Would be good to centralize all the great info and tidbits you guys managed to find out in a sort of mini-editing guide 'how to optimalize the DE'.

[Jay 37,281]

Well the acoustic shift John Takis pointed out I couldn't hear myself

If anybody wants to check, he said that 1:14 of "Nero Sighted" was different on the OST compared to D.E.

The different ending of "Run And Shoot Offense" that foobsie claimed to hear on moviemusic.com also hasn't been heard by anyone else.

Wrong overlaps on the DE? I guess the only one is "Nero Fiddles, Narada Burns" segueing right into "Black Holes Have A Lot Of Pull", but as I mentioned in the main post, a clean ending is available on the OST.

I am trying to centralize all info in the main post of this thread, of course.

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

Haha, yeah, took me a little while to get. I can't figure out what "Black Holes Have a Lot of Pull" is a reference to, though...

Speaking of these things...

I just noticed that one Chapter from the novel 'King Solomon's Mines' is Called 'Water!, Water!'

Was Spielberg referencing this on Temple of Doom, and therefore Williams used it?

[Datameister 2,037]

I just noticed that one Chapter from the novel 'King Solomon's Mines' is Called 'Water!, Water!' Was Spielberg referencing this on Temple of Doom, and therefore Williams used it?

John Williams is the next Michael Giacchino!

[Jay 37,281]

So that the section of "I've Fallen And I Can't Beam Up!" from 0:06-0:23 that contains only strings on the D.E. but contains additional instruments (muted trumptets and horns) in the film itself - Do we think that:

1. The D.E. represents Giacchino's original intentions, and the additional instruments heard in the film were a later-recorded overdub

2. In the film itself, they pulled those additional instruments from some other cue we haven't figured out yet

3. Varese accidentally selected the wrong take for this section where the brass and woodwinds weren't playing - but they were always intended to be there.

[Datameister 2,037]

I think they either recorded the other instruments separately for that passage or just had the orchestra in iso booths, which would allow them to dial out whole groups of instruments in a case like this. I think the erhu was recorded in an iso booth, but I can't remember if the whole orchestra had 'em. In any case, I have no doubt that the music was originally written with the other instruments in place, and I'm rather disappointed that they were omitted. I'll probably switch to the DVD rip at that point in my edit.

[OneBuckFilms 319]

I think the orchestra played all at once, but they were boarded off from each other. Michael Giacchino did this so that he could get that energy that comes from players feeding off each other.

With those boards, it's possible that they were recorded to separate tracks, and Varese simply missed the brass out of the mix.

It's also possible that the brass was recorded as an overlay later.

[Datameister 2,037]

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about, iso booths. In fact, you can see 'em in the shots on this page. So I'm sure that's what happened. The only part that's really mysterious to me is why Varese dropped all the other instruments!

[Jay 37,281]

Well, it has to be either

1. They screwed up

2. Giacchino requested it to be presented that way

Sadly we really have no way of knowing

[OneBuckFilms 319]

I suspect it's 1.

Still fantastic music, even with the issues discussed here.

[Richard Penna 3,669]

That's rather a lot of things now for them to 'screw up' - alternate takes, missing instruments, missing choir.

Would they really make so many mistakes?

[Jay 37,281]

Yea, it is seeming more and more like this was a total rush job by Varese

I wonder what the rush was?

We all would have happily waited another year - or even until the sequel comes out - if it meant they got everything right.

[Trent B 337]

It's very possible Giacchino wanted the set to be this way. The only way to know is if someone interviewed him sometime and asked him about the set.

Edit: By the way I know most people say they don't care that the choir wasn't included in those four cues. However as a comparison...imagine listening to a score like AVATAR with out the choir? It really would not be the same.

[Richard Penna 3,669]

I'm gonna point out a post from FSM by 'SchiffyM', in particular:

The missing overlays are missing because they were not Giacchino's doing. They are not part of the score he composed. And this speaks to the larger point: the assumption on the part of so many here that (except in the case of some high profile meddlings like "Alien") the score in the film is the ultimate expression of the composer's intent. So often, it is not.

Given that the percussion overlays weren't Giacchino either (and hence not present), there's a fair chance this guy has some authority.

And I'm sure I read somewhere by one of you guys that when the choir comes in during one of the later cues, there's a noticeable edit in Michael's cue? I've only seen the film once, but only during Back from Black does it even slightly feel that there's something a little empty about the mix.

If this is indeed the case, perhaps a note in the liner notes would've helped. Overall though, I'm delighted with the set.

[Jay 37,281]

I dunno who that Schiffy guy is, or what authority he speaks on. He could just be speaking out of his ass.

The fact that the percussion overlays weren't recorded by Giacchino doesn't mean he didn't fully support them. Maybe he had to leave to go score something else, and put his faith in Mr. Tilton to do the job for him.

As for the missing choir, brass, and woodwinds, of course that was Giacchino's intentions and doing, and its a Varese screwup that they aren't there.

[Richard Penna 3,669]

Have you actually tried e-mailing Varese and just asking them Jay?

[Admiral Holdo 16]

Varese probably wouldn't answer it.

[Trent B 337]

I have to agree with Mr. Movies.

[Jay 37,281]

Varese doesn't respond to customer emails, have a forum of their own, or ever made any posts at another other forums. Its just how they've decided to run their business.

[Admiral Holdo 16]

I gotta say, sometimes when you read the posts at FSM (or here, on occasion), you can understand why.

[Richard Penna 3,669]

They can't be completely shut off from customer e-mails. I e-mailed about a year or two ago asking about something being reissued and they got back to me within a few days.

[Henry B 50]

Based on a not-so-anonymous tipster's advice, has anyone checked out the time lapse video of the Narada being built on the Blu-ray special features?

[Jay 37,281]

They can't be completely shut off from customer e-mails. I e-mailed about a year or two ago asking about something being reissued and they got back to me within a few days.

And was their reply useful, or something along the lines of "Thanks, we'll look into it"?

Based on a not-so-anonymous tipster's advice, has anyone checked out the time lapse video of the Narada being built on the Blu-ray special features?

I own the blu ray but haven't even taken the shrink wrap off yet; At some point I'll get around to it.

Oh hey, now that I am remembering, datameister didn't have access to the blu ray for his set. Hmm, ok maybe I'll find time to check it out tonight.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

I think we need some quotes from the horse's mouth, and by that we need Giacchino to join this forum. Tilton, make it happen!

[Richard Penna 3,669]

They can't be completely shut off from customer e-mails. I e-mailed about a year or two ago asking about something being reissued and they got back to me within a few days.

And was their reply useful, or something along the lines of "Thanks, we'll look into it"?

Their reply was as I expected: very sorry, but very unlikely anytime soon for that particular title.

So yes, it was direct and helpful.

And yes, I too hate those 'thanks for your comments, they will be considered (not)' blurbs.

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

I cant believe there was an uproar for ussage of overdubs in ROTS, film and here 'we' are very very upset because there had not been included. BOys into battle with taiko drums is awesome, yet 75% of people hate it...

Note that ST is one of the few (if not the only one) Giacchino Varese CD to put 'Music by' instead of 'Music composed by'.

I have noticed that kind of credit is used when a composer has 'additional music' by some credited or uncredited ghostwriters.

So maybe these overdubs are not really ORIGINALLY intented. Maybe in post production JJ said to michael he wanted to make some adjustements and the sent the people from edgewater to do the work since he was bussy with (UP?, Land of the lost?, Earth days?) So they are intended, but as a re-working, not original vision. I dont know if i explain myself well.

[Jay 37,281]

Well yea, the drum overdubs for Star Trek were not done by Giacchino. They were done by Chris Tilton.

We aren't really clamoring for those (though they would have been nice). We're clamoring for the missing choir and missing brass and woodwinds, all of which WERE done by Giacchino and should have been there

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

I understand the missing choir, but missing brass and woodwinds?

Could they be like the mandolin in Last crusade? a sweetener of some kind? Composed to enhance a cue, but not originally intended?

[Jay 37,281]

Listen to 0:06-0:23 of "I've Fallen And I Can't Beam Up". Do you really think Giacchino ever intended it to be heard this way? Now compare it to the same passage from the film. That's what it's supposed to sound like.

Based on a not-so-anonymous tipster's advice, has anyone checked out the time lapse video of the Narada being built on the Blu-ray special features?

Just watched it - its set to the first minute-ish "Nero Sighted" - except a choir overdub not heard on the album or in the film is mixed in with it!

Does anyone know what other features are exclusive to the blu ray? I know Datameister only had access to the normal dvd special features when he made his set, so there could be something else we haven't heard.

In other news, the "Score" special feature indicates that the End Credits are 11m52. Since I have 49 cues on my list, that indicates to me that the 3 "unreleased cues" that ended up being made up entirely of tracked music in the film were originally slated and named to have original music written for them - then they either ran out of time and never wrote them because the tracked music worked fine enough, or they WERE written but got replaced in the final film by tracked music and they didn't appear on the D.E.

[Jay 37,281]

OK, I just carefully compared Chutes and Matter on the D.E. to what's heard in the film (actually Joe's track Fighting Fire With Fire)

I heard NO "unreleased passage featuring the main theme". The only time the main theme plays in that track is when Sulu takes his helmet off, and that's the same in both versions.

In fact, the only difference I did here is in the ending. By D.E. track times, starting at 2:38 the film version is different. What I hear sounds like the motif from "Labor of Love" followed by remixed material from Chutes and Matter. And then it ends the same as the crescendo at 3:00 on the D.E.

So I'm not convinced that it's a separately recorded "Alternate ending". Perhaps somebody can prove me wrong.

[Trent B 337]

Ya it would have been nice if they had included the drum over dubs by Chris Tilton since they gave some of the cues more oomph. Compare "Hangar Management", "Enterprising Young Men", "I've Fallen and I Can't Beam Up!" , and "Come With Me, Cupcake!" from the D.E. to their film versions. I mean in a way I don't mind at all they are not there but would have been cool to hear them. I know if the other labels had released them they would have included Tilton's over dubs.

Like Jay said those of us are mostly upset that Varèse went the cheap route and didn't pay the choir fees for those cues that needed the choir over dubs.

[Jay 37,281]

Trent, there are no additional Tilton drums in "I've Fallen and I Can't Beam Up". Are you sure you're not thinking of a different track?

Holy shit what just happened to the main post!

[Trent B 337]

Nope there are definitely some over dubs by Tilton in that cue. I'm listening to the main two front channels from the DVD rip I did, not Joe's rip. You tend to loose instruments by using the actual full back rear channels themselves. Also listening to "Chutes and Matter" from the two front main channels for that section with the theme when Kirk and Sulu are firing on the platform it might be a rescore.

Edit: I'm betting MG didn't have a hand in this and the takes selected for this set were Robert Townson's own personal liking instead of what the composer really wanted. I bet had MG been involved this would have turned out different.

[Jay 37,281]

I must respectfully disagree. I just listened to the front channels and don't hear Tilton drums in "Ive Fallen". I agree when shooting the drill platform is different compared to the D.E., I'm just not convinced it isn't tracked.

Well, I dunno how the main post got the way it is, but it'll take me forever to fix it, and I don't have time to do so right now. In the meantime I put together this list of what is missing from the D.E.

1. Narada Bing (first minute)

2. Narada Boom (insert for Robau/George conversation)

3. Star Trek (Version 1)

4. Star Trek (Version 2)

5. Hella Bar Talk (with Tilton drums)

6. Welcome Back, Spock (with Choir)

7. Hangar Management (with Tilton drums)

8. Enterprising Young Men (with Tilton drums)

9. Nero Sighted (with Choir)

10. Jehosafats (alternate opening - possibly called Red Shirt Diaries)

11. Chutes and Matter (with Tilton drums)

12. Chutes and Matter (alternate ending) [PENDING DEBUNKING ]

13. I've Fallen and I Can't Beam Up! (with missing brass and woodwinds)

14. Spock Goes Spelunking (with Choir)

15. Scotty's Tanked (with Tilton drums)

16. Come With Me, Cupcake (with Tilton drums)

17. Does It Still McFly (with Choir)

18. Back From Black (with Choir)

19. To Boldly Go (alternate ending)

20. End Credits (final crescendo)

[Henry B 50]

I cant believe there was an uproar for ussage of overdubs in ROTS, film and here 'we' are very very upset because there had not been included. BOys into battle with taiko drums is awesome, yet 75% of people hate it...

Note that ST is one of the few (if not the only one) Giacchino Varese CD to put 'Music by' instead of 'Music composed by'.

I have noticed that kind of credit is used when a composer has 'additional music' by some credited or uncredited ghostwriters.

So maybe these overdubs are not really ORIGINALLY intented. Maybe in post production JJ said to michael he wanted to make some adjustements and the sent the people from edgewater to do the work since he was bussy with (UP?, Land of the lost?, Earth days?) So they are intended, but as a re-working, not original vision. I dont know if i explain myself well.

The difference to me is that in Revenge of the Sith, the opening music for orchestra is completely deleted in favor of the drum overdubs. I don't care about the drums in "Boys into Battle," they're basically what Williams intended, only at a higher volume. But in "Enter Lord Vader" and "Anakin vs. Obi-Wan" the drums are very obtrusive and even change the rhythmic feel of the music. Williams just doesn't write in this high octane, percussive style. Giacchino does, so the drum overdubs for Star Trek feel more organic.

Still, I prefer Giacchino's original versions of cues, and I'm more disappointed by the lack of choir and orchestra overdubs.

[Trent B 337]

By the way Ryan Keaveney posted on FSM saying this: "It is my understanding that Michael Giacchino was not involved with the sequencing or production of the deluxe edition, nor was it his decision to use the choir-less alternates."

I had always suspected the takes used on this set were Robert Townson's own personal liking and decision and that MG wasn't involved at all. Plus with Robert Townson being credited as the soul producer for the set in the liner notes it makes even more sense. I bet had MG been involved with this set, things would have been a lot different. We would have gotten correct takes for the cues, even cues with the choir over dubs and most likely with Chris Tilton's over dubs.

[Pieter Boelen 740]

If you take the text from the first post and save it as .htm, then open it in, say, Internet Explorer, it looks normal again.

See attached. It's not a proper fix, but it's at least better than what it is.

Then with some search-and-replace, you can translate the HTML code fairly quickly back into the forum's BB Code.

HTM Format.htm

[Jay 37,281]

Thanks Pieter!

First post fixed!

[Pieter Boelen 740]

Glad to see you got it sorted so quick!

[Admiral Holdo 16]

Perhaps it's worth noting that 'Head to Heart Conversation' is not entirely unused; the last sixteen seconds are in place of the first sixteen of 'One Proud Mother'.

[Datameister 2,037]

^ Yup.

[OneBuckFilms 319]

I also noticed some of the percussion at the point in Narada Boom where we see the camera move around Robau after Ayel's message shuts off was tracked from the beginning of Hack to the future.

[Datameister 2,037]

Yeah, I'm a little confused about how that scene was originally supposed to be edited and scored.

[Jay 37,281]

I can't figure out how Kirk's Trial and the drill over Vulcan scene would have been originally edited when Giacchino scored it.

The track "Vulcan Gets A Good Drilling" lines up with kirk's trial for the first minute, and the end of the drill scene for the last 30 seconds... so where would the shots of Amanda seeing the drill from her house fit in?

The way Nero's Theme comes in so abruptly in that track I almost thought it was an edit the first time I heard it... but I don't think that could be the case. I dunno, its weird.

[Alan 689]

I can't figure out how Kirk's Trial and the drill over Vulcan scene would have been originally edited when Giacchino scored it.

The track "Vulcan Gets A Good Drilling" lines up with kirk's trial for the first minute, and the end of the drill scene for the last 30 seconds... so where would the shots of Amanda seeing the drill from her house fit in?

The way Nero's Theme comes in so abruptly in that track I almost thought it was an edit the first time I heard it... but I don't think that could be the case. I dunno, its weird.

I think the shot of the Narada in orbit and Amanda seeing the drill were simply reverse order when Giacchino scored it. The music for Amanda standing on her balcony looking at the drill comes after Nero's theme on the DE.

[Jay 37,281]

Ah ok thanks, I hadn't noticed that yet.

[Trent B 337]

Ya what Alan stated for that sequences makes a lot more sense. All though for my iPod edit for that part of the cue, I edited it like in the film (a better edit mind you!) but put it after "Take Off, Eh?". Since it would always seem logical that scene would go right after all the ships jump to warp then it cuts to that sequence and it shows Ayel telling Nero that seven Federation ships are on their way.

[Mink 0]

Hey guys,

I'm new to this board so hello everyone!

It's amazing how much info you put togehter on Giacchino's score!

I read this thread so far and got a little bit confused with the film version of "The Flask at Hand" though. That's how I got it: Giacchino wrote 2 versions of it, the one that's on the varese DE and totally unused and from the second one only the first half was used in the picture and then replaced with an alternate version of the "Main Title". Am I getting it right?