The Notation Software Thread! (Finale, Sibelius, Cakewalk, etc)

[Datameister 2,041]

It always amuses me when people have more difficulty finding stuff in Finale - and I don't mean that in an insulting sort of way. You're one of many, Chuck, but I simply cannot understand that. Sibelius feels so utterly counterintuitive every time I use it. It's a pretty program in the sense that Mac OS X is a pretty OS, but I have trouble actually making it work for me. Finale certainly took a little time to learn - and I'm still learning new tricks and advanced techniques - but it seemed relatively straightforward from the get-go. (Everything except entering rests...as I recall, both programs frustrated me in that respect.)

[Henry B 50]

I use Finale, but I have to agree that its layout is convoluted. Why are there three or four different dialog boxes in which to set the page dimensions? Why is the organization of tools like Transpose and Pickup Measure so arbitrary? Why is there so much that could be condensed into the Document Options dialog box, but isn't? And so on. It's actually gotten worse with each upgrade. I hope they do a little restructuring with 2011.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

I use Sibelius and find it very easy to use, and enjoyed getting to know the program. Then again I also use a mac, so I guess I like pretty things.

[Swordfish392 3]

So they are all using either Finale or Sibelius, just a matter of taste right?

Btw, does anyone know how I can make the counts look bigger?

[Datameister 2,041]

Well, I'd certainly wager that the majority of folks are using Finale or Sibelius. They're both quite popular.

And what do you mean by "counts"? Time signature, like you were saying before? Well, one way is to go Document > Document Options > Fonts - under the Notation pull-down, there are several options that let you tweak the font size of the time signatures.

[Swordfish392 3]

Well, I'd certainly wager that the majority of folks are using Finale or Sibelius. They're both quite popular.

And what do you mean by "counts"? Time signature, like you were saying before? Well, one way is to go Document > Document Options > Fonts - under the Notation pull-down, there are several options that let you tweak the font size of the time signatures.

Yeah, "time signature" was the word!

Do you know how this works in sibelius?

[Datameister 2,041]

Unfortunately, no. =/

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

From the Sibelius 6 reference guide:

On the Time signatures page of the House Style> Engraving Rules dialog (shortcut Ctrl+Shift+E), click either Time signatures (large) or the even larger Time signatures (huge). These are actually text styles that time signatures can use instead. These affect all time signatures throughout the score.

To alter the size, font and positioning of big time signatures, click Edit Text Style; b3.9Edit Text Styles. This also lets you adjust which staves big time signatures go above.

The other exciting House Style> Engraving Rules option confers upon you the ability to adjust

the default gap before time signatures.

[ETMusic 1]

So they are all using either Finale or Sibelius, just a matter of taste right?

It's purely taste. I was using Finale (since 1997) and swapped to Sibelius because the team I started working with in September all used Sibelius. There are certain things I miss from Finale (like the Staff Dialog/Config), but the magnetic layout in Sibelius 6 is really, REALLY nice.

[Datameister 2,041]

I do envy magnetic layout, I must admit, but I can live without it.

[Desplat13 1]

FI-NA-LE! FI-NA-LE! FI-NA-LE!

Had this discussion a lot. My conservatory basically made the switch all the way to Sibelius last year, I think. Which is kind of sad. But I have used both, and I feel like Finale has more flexibility, though I am certainly no expert in either.

[Swordfish392 3]

From the Sibelius 6 reference guide:

On the Time signatures page of the House Style> Engraving Rules dialog (shortcut Ctrl+Shift+E), click either Time signatures (large) or the even larger Time signatures (huge). These are actually text styles that time signatures can use instead. These affect all time signatures throughout the score.

To alter the size, font and positioning of big time signatures, click Edit Text Style; b3.9Edit Text Styles. This also lets you adjust which staves big time signatures go above.

The other exciting House Style> Engraving Rules option confers upon you the ability to adjust

the default gap before time signatures.

I tried it but the time signature looked pretty different from what I want to achiev: (any idea which font this could be?)

http://img695.imageshack.us/i/examplej.jpg/

Also, how they write numbers/brackets beside the sections?

[Joe Brausam 214]

I see what you're getting at, but how necessary is that versus just having it say 6/4 on every line? I get that it helps the conductor see time changes faster, but that's nothing that can't be done by hand.

[Nemesis 245]

You're right joey225, but it would be nice to know how one can make these big time changes.

[Swordfish392 3]

I just want to look my sheets "pro-like"

[Joe Brausam 214]

Honestly, I'd like to know too. Even just to know one more trick!

[Datameister 2,041]

...and this is why we use Finale instead. Seriously, it's very easy to do brackets and numbers like that in Finale, and not much harder to do large time signatures. Well, getting them horizontally compressed like that would require a font that looks that way, but yeah. I don't know how to do the brackets in Sibelius.

[Joe Brausam 214]

I'm a Finale user. I was never really able to "get" Sibelius.

[Datameister 2,041]

Yeah. It seems cool, and I certainly envy certain features, but when I actually try to make something with it, I'm constantly disappointed with one thing or another.

[ETMusic 1]

Yeah. It seems cool, and I certainly envy certain features, but when I actually try to make something with it, I'm constantly disappointed with one thing or another.

It's just a matter of preference (aka - which program you already know). I haven't found anything that I could do in Finale that I can't do in Sibelius. Sometimes you have to do a 'sneaky' workaround, but that applies to both programs.

[Datameister 2,041]

Yeah...if I'd spent all this time with Sibelius, I'd probably be just as comfortable with it, albeit in a slightly different way. Although I must admit that I first tried Finale and Sibelius at right around the same time, back in perhaps 2004 or 2005, and I was definitely more comfortable with Finale from the outset. The interface was easier for me to wrap my brain around, and I just get the general feeling from Sibelius that it's trying to do more of the work for me. I don't like that. I could be entirely off on that, but that's how it at least felt and still feels.

I think for my next engraving project, I'm gonna try to do it simultaneously in both programs. That'll give me an impetus to become more familiar with Sibelius and perhaps change my perceptions of the program a little. Or...maybe it'll just emphasize how much more comfortable I am with Finale. We'll see!

[Swordfish392 3]

This question might sound a bit strange but how I get to the next page in Sibelius? (first page is full)

This programm drives me nuts....

[Joe Brausam 214]

Shoulda used Finale.

[Datameister 2,041]

That's exactly what I was going to type.

[Swordfish392 3]

But I'm just going to get familar with this prog...

Also I find Finale's user interface quite ugly in comparison to Sibelius.

[Datameister 2,041]

Sibelius is definitely a prettier program. It just drives me crazy trying to actually use it.

Finale's not perfect either, though. If the respective strengths of the two programs could be combined into one piece of customizable, user-friendly, powerful software, the results would be unbeatable.

[airmanjerm 78]

JoAnn Kane Music Service prepares much of the music for films these days, and uses Finale pretty much exclusively.

I've never used SIbelius, but I know a lot of people swear by it. I don't think at this point that either is much better than

another, it's just what you want to use. I've been using Finale since version 2.0 back in 1993 or something crazy like that,

so I personally just don't want to have to learn a new system. At the same time, if you're looking for a program

to use, I'd test drive both and see which one you prefer.

[Datameister 2,041]

I just can't get over the fact that if you start with one of their templates, delete all the instruments, and build a new list, the spacing comes out uneven by default. That right there is enough to make me say "NO THANK YOU!", despite Sibelius' strengths.

[Swordfish392 3]

I think I'll stay with Sibelius for now, maybe I'll switch to Finale later.

It's like with cubase, I don't even try out another sequencer couse it took alot of time (years) to learn the ropes (also cubase 5 is kinda perfect for me, except for those idiotic "auto-swith-to-random-recording channels" function, which I wasn't been able to turn off til now)

Still need to know how to make those BIG time signaturs and how to turn to the next damn page...

[David Coscina 3]

Depends on who you ask. Both Finale and Sibelius have certainly been used by plenty of major engravers, in the film industry and beyond. I happen to be very partial to Finale - I think it produces more professional results, and although many disagree with me, I find it to be easier to learn and use than Sibelius. It's an extremely flexible program that can certainly handle customization such as large time signature symbols. There are certainly people who have great success with Sibelius, though...difficult as that is for me to understand.

I totally agree. I have both Sibelius 6 and Finale 2010 and I much prefer Finale. Yes, to compose basic stuff, Sibelius is faster. Get into complex larger scores and Finale is a better option IMO.

...and this is why we use Finale instead. Seriously, it's very easy to do brackets and numbers like that in Finale, and not much harder to do large time signatures. Well, getting them horizontally compressed like that would require a font that looks that way, but yeah. I don't know how to do the brackets in Sibelius.

Large time sigs appear above the first system and last system in the conductor's score in Sibelius 6. finale 2010 allows you to place even bigger time sigs anywhere. I prefer this. Also I prefer the Speedy Entry (no MIDI input) to the virtual keyboard that comes with Sibelius. I like typing in my music because I'm fast at it and don't like to be a slave to the keybaord, And there's no other way of inputting notes aside from mousing it in in Sibelius 6.

[ETMusic 1]

Also I prefer the Speedy Entry (no MIDI input) to the virtual keyboard that comes with Sibelius. I like typing in my music because I'm fast at it and don't like to be a slave to the keybaord, And there's no other way of inputting notes aside from mousing it in in Sibelius 6.

What? I use both MIDI input and also the QWERTY keyboard for entering notes into Sibelius all the time. Also, I think you can setup the big time signatures to behave however you want in Sibelius, but I'll admit that once I got my personal template setup I haven't gone back to tinker with the settings.

[David Coscina 3]

thanks ET Music. I forgot about setting up the laptop short cuts on Sibelius. I still find a lot of great things on Finale but I will say that Sibelius is faster for me to compose on. I'm glad I have both anyhow. Different needs.

You wouldn't happen to know how to get a convincing timpani roll using the Garritan Personal Orchestra would you? I always thought there was a KS for a sampled roll but cannot find one and the roll that the program does is pretty fake sounding.

[MSM 126]

I use Sibelius and find it very easy to use, and enjoyed getting to know the program. Then again I also use a mac, so I guess I like pretty things.

I also have Mc and have Finale 2010, but I have never worked with Finale before. How easy is Sibelius on a Mc?

[David Coscina 3]

I use Sibelius and find it very easy to use, and enjoyed getting to know the program. Then again I also use a mac, so I guess I like pretty things.

I also have Mc and have Finale 2010, but I have never worked with Finale before. How easy is Sibelius on a Mc?

It's pretty bloody fast. Believe me, I have no hate for Finale 2010- I like it. But I have been trying my hand at scoring a cue directly in Sibelius and it's a dream. I probably have to export it as a SMF for greater realism in Digital Performer but as far as composing goes, yeah, it's a lot faster than Finale. Sorry.

[Datameister 2,041]

I disagree. I'm much faster in Finale. Though I have much more experience with Finale, my first attempts with both programs happened around the same time, and Finale initially struck me as less pretty but more straightforward to use. It's really one of those "your mileage may vary" situations - just like with Macs vs. PCs, it really comes down to how your own brain works best.

[David Coscina 3]

I disagree. I'm much faster in Finale. Though I have much more experience with Finale, my first attempts with both programs happened around the same time, and Finale initially struck me as less pretty but more straightforward to use. It's really one of those "your mileage may vary" situations - just like with Macs vs. PCs, it really comes down to how your own brain works best.

I agree. Some things in Finale are great like assigning dynamics or articulations to an entire passage. On the other hand, changing note durations, adding instruments, and playback controls seem much quicker to me in Sibelius. Whatever works is my philosophy.

Dave

[gkgyver 1,645]

I never used anything but Sibelius, and I do not intend to change that.

[Wojo 2,453]

I use Cakewalk for the data entry, and hope to learn enough Finale overnight to clean up the notation markings.

[ETMusic 1]

You wouldn't happen to know how to get a convincing timpani roll using the Garritan Personal Orchestra would you? I always thought there was a KS for a sampled roll but cannot find one and the roll that the program does is pretty fake sounding.

I use Logic for mocking up my cues (I also use Digital Performer, but it depends who/what I'm working for/on), so I'm not really sure what's the best way to get a convincing timpani roll since I very, VERY rarely use the playback that is built into Sibelius.

[David Coscina 3]

Yeah, I also use Logic 9 or DP7.1 depending on the project. The composer I'm working for/with now uses DP so I am trying to keep things consistent. I just prefer writing everything out on manuscript first and assigning hitpoints that way so I can see everything and create some nice shape to the music. I will have to export the file into DP for performance purposes I guess. It didn't sound terrible in Sibelius although it's better to use that only for mock-ups when a real orchestra is ending up playing the cue.

[BTR1701 59]

For those interested in learning advanced Finale tips and techniques, or who have questions on how to do things, there's a ListServ mailing list run out of Sam Houston State University that's been very helpful to me.

You get one or two e-mails a day full of Finale-related questions/discussions.

To subscribe, go here and follow the directions:

http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

[Swordfish392 3]

Can someone help me out?

I have a 9/8 piece. I tried to put it into sibelius/finale, but the eighteens are not correctly divided. How I do that?

Here's an example of what I mean:

http://img37.imageshack.us/i/example1214.jpg/

[filmmusic 1,826]

Can someone help me out?

I have a 9/8 piece. I tried to put it into sibelius/finale, but the eighteens are not correctly divided. How I do that?

Here's an example of what I mean:

http://img37.imageshack.us/i/example1214.jpg/

Well, i don't know which version of Sibelius you use, but in the Time Signature box it should have a "beam and rest groups" option.

You should put "2,2,3,2" and so the notes would be grouped as in your example..

[Swordfish392 3]

Thanks a lot! Works fine.

[Datameister 2,041]

Also, if you're ever in a situation where you need to change the beaming on a case-by-case basis in Finale, you can use the / key to toggle whether the selected note is beamed to the previous note.

[Swordfish392 3]

Another simple question (again related to finale and sibelius), how do I make everything smaller? I want to have at least 4 groups of staves (string orchestra + a few additional instruments) or more on one page, but get max. 3 ( and everything is far to HUGE)

[Datameister 2,041]

There's a resize tool that looks like a %. You can use that to resize notes, systems, pages, etc. And don't forget about adjusting staff spacing and system margins and whatnot.

[Jay 37,346]

What are the best sound libraries available for Finale?

[Datameister 2,041]

I can't offer any advice about stuff you buy separately, but as far as out of the box stuff goes, I like to use the Garritan library for strings, piano, harpsichord, and some percussion, and VST SoftSynth stuff for the rest.

[Jay 37,346]

How do I tell Finale 2010 which library to use for the each instrument?