The Orchestration Thread

[Nick Parker 3,017]

I have noticed that when is Josh not creating polls or asking trivial questions, he is usually asking about orchestration. Personally, I consider them to be very valid questions, as I have those same questions myself, and then some more (I am practically deaf when it comes to identifying instrumentation). This Thread is where all of your orchestration questions can be asked and hopefully answered. Do not be embarrassed, you can ask questions so simple as: "Are those French horns playing those opening notes in 'The Menu'?" (not a hypothetical question, by the way) or questions so complex Bernard Herrmann would have broken his pencil in frustration trying to answer.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

What exactly do orchestrators do?

[Trent B 317]

What exactly do orchestrators do?

I've always wondered that myself.

[Datameister 1,394]

Are those French horns playing those opening notes in 'The Menu'?

Yes - from the sound of it, with strings played pizzicato (i.e. plucked instead of bowed) as well.

I don't have any questions at the moment, but I think this is a great idea for a thread. JW's orchestrations never cease to fascinate me.

EDIT: And there are others who are in a better position to answer the orchestrator question than I, but to my understanding, the composer will usually write down a condensed "sketch" score. In Williams' case, basically all the music is there, but compressed into a few staves, with written indications of which instrument(s) will be playing which lines. The orchestrator takes this sketch and copies it out into a full score with all the proper markings to make it clear exactly who's playing what. Basically, the music all comes from the composer, but the orchestrator(s) will take care of the more tedious work of translating it into a form that's more playable.

[Neimoidian 13]

What about composers who write whole score with the computer doing all that synth mock-ups...? I guess orchestrators take the material and try to rewrite it to suit the real instruments in a way it resembles the mock-ups, don't they?

[Datameister 1,394]

Again, I'm hardly a professional in the industry, but I do know that creating a synth mockup is very different from creating a full score that's readable and playable by a real orchestra. I suspect that most of the (good) composers who work with the synth mockups have a very strong idea in their head of how it'll work out with the real players, and they probably make note of that on paper or pixels, but a lot of that isn't conveyed in the mockup. The orchestrator again must translate that into sheet music that tells exactly which instruments play what and when and how.

[Henry B 49]

An orchestrator is a person who takes a simplified score and expands it for a large orchestral ensemble of some sort. How much creativity this entails depends entirely on the composer. Williams is a controller. Composers like Alan Menken write for piano and maybe a few key instruments, leaving all the details up to orchestrators. Then there's orchestration in pop music, which is the process of adding orchestral layers (most commonly string sections) to songs recorded with core ensembles.

[Trent B 317]

An orchestrator is a person who takes a simplified score and expands it for a large orchestral ensemble of some sort. How much creativity this entails depends entirely on the composer. Williams is a controller. Composers like Alan Menken write for piano and maybe a few key instruments, leaving all the details up to orchestrators. Then there's orchestration in pop music, which is the process of adding orchestral layers (most commonly string sections) to songs recorded with core ensembles.

Thanks for the information Henry. <_<

[Marian Schedenig 5,520]

Then there's orchestration in pop music, which is the process of adding orchestral layers (most commonly string sections) to songs recorded with core ensembles.

That's usually called "arranging" I believe.

[indy4 152]

Here's one: what's the instrument playing at 0:09 of "Main Title" from Ed Wood? Not the trombones, but that high pitched classic alien sound? Or is is a synthesizer?

[Henry B 49]

Then there's orchestration in pop music, which is the process of adding orchestral layers (most commonly string sections) to songs recorded with core ensembles.

That's usually called "arranging" I believe.

I've heard it both ways, but you're right.

Here's one: what's the instrument playing at 0:09 of "Main Title" from Ed Wood? Not the trombones, but that high pitched classic alien sound? Or is is a synthesizer?

Not familiar with the music, but could the "high pitched classic alien sound" be a theremin? The theremin is an electronic instrument but it's not a synthesizer. The sound is produced by manipulating waves with one's hands. Weird. That's not to say that the example in question couldn't be a theremin synthesizer. Williams used something similar (the "continuum fingerboard," I think) in KotCS.

[indy4 152]

Possibly...I've never heard a theremin before, so I YouTubed it. I think that might be right. Thanks.

[John Crichton 4]

I fell in love with the theremin when we saw one played live at the Houston concert a couple of years ago. There's one in a couple of cues in Land of the Lost, I believe.

[Nick Parker 3,017]

Possibly...I've never heard a theremin before, so I YouTubed it. I think that might be right. Thanks.

If I recall correctly from the film, it is indeed a theremin. Perhaps its most famous use is in Bernard Herrmann's The Day The Earth Stood Still, which was lovingly parodied in Danny Elfman's Mars Attacks!. Speaking of the theremin, I want to say that I hear it at the end of "Presenting the Hook", does anyone else hear it?

The sound is produced by manipulating waves with one's hands. Weird.

Yeah, I think the theremin might perhaps be the strangest instrument I have seen, in terms of sound production, at least.

[Henry B 49]

I fell in love with the theremin when we saw one played live at the Houston concert a couple of years ago. There's one in a couple of cues in Land of the Lost, I believe.

So what's your problem with The Fury, huh, huh?

[John Crichton 4]

<_<

No problem, the score just doesn't grip me even though there's points that I think it should. It's strange.

[Joe Brausam 203]

If I recall correctly from the film, it is indeed a theremin. Perhaps its most famous use is in Bernard Herrmann's The Day The Earth Stood Still,

It was made popular though in Rozsa's score for Spellbound - and I think he used it earlier than that in The Thief of Baghdad.

[Datameister 1,394]

Theremin is awesome. Giacchino uses it to great effect in his soundtrack for Disneyland's Space Mountain, kind of paying homage to old sci-fi B-movies.

[Koray Savas 2,095]

Datameister, perhaps you could give some info about Giacchino's Space Mountain? Is there any official release? I think there is 1 cue on a Disney album, but I have 5 cues, which don't have accurate track titles.

[Datameister 1,394]

Sure! The Disneyland attraction itself uses a single music track that's about 3:12 long. It starts with a glorious intro for orchestra, choir, and theremin; this plays during the ride's three initial lift hills. This segment was not released at first; official releases only included the middle portion, which is a spy-score-influenced statement of the same melody at a considerably faster tempo. That plays through the whole coaster section of the ride and ends with big octaves. Then there's a short bit afterward as you pull into the station again, fading out with a more laid-back feel. That wasn't on the first releases either, but I believe it is now. You can find all of this on most Disneyland official soundtracks simply as "Space Mountain."

There's also a longer track (roughly 5 minutes long) that was written for the queue of the Hong Kong version, I believe. It develops the same theme in similar ways; to my knowledge, it hasn't been released on CD, but there was a clean version (but in rather low sound quality) floating around the 'net for a while. This isn't in use at the original Disneyland.

There are also unofficial induction recordings that attempt to isolate the music from the limited sound effects and radio chatter heard on the official releases. In my experience, the quality on these is less than ideal, but they do produce "clean" recordings. And there are also the background tracks for the queue, which predate Giacchino's 2005 score and feature radio chatter and creepy space-age sound effects. I'm not sure if those are officially available, but they're out there. (Also, none of this should be confused with the older Space Mountain track, which is a surf guitar arrangement of Saint-Saens' "Aquarium." That can be found on some Disneyland soundtracks, mostly older ones.)

[indy4 152]

I didn't know the intro to the ride had been released! Sweet!

[Datameister 1,394]

Yeah, it's definitely on the newer soundtracks! It's terribly stupid that they didn't release the whole thing from the get-go...it sounds terrible just fading into the coaster portion, which is fun but not as awe-inspiring as the intro...but better late than never, I suppose. I know it's on the 2008 official soundtrack, at the very least.

[indy4 152]

Yeah, for me the best part of the soundtrack is from the intro. I must consider getting this...

[Joe Brausam 203]

There are so many soundtrack choices on Amazon for Disneyland. Could you perhaps link to the one that you feel is most worth getting?

[indy4 152]

I assume you're talking to Datameister--if not, I only own one for Disneyland and one for CA Adventures, so I'm definitely not the guy to talk to.

[Koray Savas 2,095]

I actually have 4 cues:

Anaheim & HK Exit - 5:16

Anaheim & Hong Kong - 3:09

Mission Two - 2:02

Onboard Music (2005) - 1:41

[Joe Brausam 203]

I assume you're talking to Datameister--if not, I only own one for Disneyland and one for CA Adventures, so I'm definitely not the guy to talk to.

Haha, yep. That was for Datameister.

[Datameister 1,394]

Joey225, there are a lot of options out there, and I don't own most of them. This one is said to be quite definitive - but it's pricey. I own this one, which has a pretty nice variety of stuff on it, but the Space Mountain track is the stupid shorter version. (It also includes the old Carnival of the Animals track, though.) I'm not seeing the 2008 soundtrack on Amazon, but I know it's quite good - it's got the full-length Space Mountain track, a variety of Disneyland stuff, and even some California Adventure highlights. And if you're interested in specific attractions, the Haunted Mansion and Pirates of the Caribbean both have their own soundtracks filled with goodies. I own and recommend both for the serious Disneyland audio fan, though I don't see them on Amazon, either. Your best bet is to find them in the park, or order them via DelivEARs at this number: 1-800-362-4533. That's Disney's phone service for ordering their stuff, I believe, and they should be able to help you out if you describe what you want.

Anaheim & HK Exit - 5:16

That should be the exit path or queue for Hong Kong that I was talking about - it's not used in Anaheim, despite the title. More variations of the theme he wrote for the attraction itself.

Anaheim & Hong Kong - 3:09

Just the standard, full-length audio track for the Anaheim and Hong Kong attractions themselves.

Mission Two - 2:02

I forgot to mention that Giacchino also wrote a different piece for the refurbished Space Mountain at Disneyland Paris, under the "Mission Two" name. It also uses drum machines and orchestra and theremin, but the results are much less inspiring, I must say. (Incidentally, it replaced one of the most blatant Williams pastiches I've heard!)

Onboard Music (2005) - 1:41

Gotta be the coaster-portion-only release they started with; same as the middle of the three-minute-long track.

Whew, we're gettin' way off topic. If there are more questions, feel free to start a Music of Disneyland thread...believe me, I could talk about that as much as I could talk about Williams music...especially when it's Williams music from Disneyland!

[Luke Skywalker 1,286]

What exactly do orchestrators do?

Orchestrate.

Plain and simple

[Marian Schedenig 5,520]

Here's one: what's the instrument playing at 0:09 of "Main Title" from Ed Wood? Not the trombones, but that high pitched classic alien sound? Or is is a synthesizer?

Not familiar with the music, but could the "high pitched classic alien sound" be a theremin? The theremin is an electronic instrument but it's not a synthesizer. The sound is produced by manipulating waves with one's hands. Weird. That's not to say that the example in question couldn't be a theremin synthesizer. Williams used something similar (the "continuum fingerboard," I think) in KotCS.

The CD booklet credits Lydia Kavina for playing the theremin and Cynthia Miller for playing the Ondes Martinot [sic]. Shouldn't be a synthesizer then.

[tharpdevenport 4]

An orchestrator is basically what ever the main composer wants him to be. Sometimes, like with Williams or Goldsmith, he or she is nothing more than a glorified copyist the majority of the time. Other times, an orchestrator might be handed some themes scribbled out and is expected to fill in the rest -- essentially writing 90% of the music and then orchestrating it too. And some even ghostwrite from time-to-time.

It just depends on what the composer allows.

[BTR1701 55]

An orchestrator is basically what ever the main composer wants him to be. Sometimes, like with Williams or Goldsmith, he or she is nothing more than a glorified copyist the majority of the time.

You'd think if that was the case, they'd at least find someone whose handwriting was legible. Reading through most of the full scores done by Williams' various orchestrators is like trying to decipher alien hieroglyphs the majority of the time. I was a better copyist back when I was in middle school band, for goodness sake.

[Kind of a pet peeve of mine, if you couldn't tell.]

I'm transcribing and engraving Williams' handwritten score to "Jurassic Park" (actually to be accurate, it's orchestrator John Neufeld's handwritten score of Williams' music) and I've come across something I've never seen before.

One of the cues (originally titled "Preparing to Meet the Monster", which changed to "Eye to Eye" on the soundtrack album) has four percussion lines. Three are notated simply "Percussion" and the fourth is notated "Mike Fisher". I assume that's some kind of rarely used percussion instrument named after the guy who invented it, like the mark tree, which was named after its inventor, Mark Stevens.

I did a Google search on "Mike Fisher" and "musical instrument" and the only thing I came up with that's even close is a guy named Mike Fisher who specializes in electronic/synthesizer music, which doesn't exactly seem to fit in this context.

The actual music written for "Mike Fisher" looks like something that would be typical of a bongo drum line and the Neufeld has notated "jungle feel" beneath the staff, so I'm guessing it's some kind of drum, but I'm at a loss as what exactly it's supposed to be. (The recording isn't much help, either, because there are a lot of different drums and other percussion playing at that point and I can't tell one from the other.)

I suppose it doesn't really matter in terms of transcribing the score. I can notate it just as it's written, but my curiosity is piqued.

So basically my question is, has anyone out there heard of a percussion instrument called "Mike Fisher"?

[Henry B 49]

I think Mike Fisher is the name of a performer, not an instrument. It's probably this guy. Jurassic Park is one of his credits.

[Datameister 1,394]

You'd think if that was the case, they'd at least find someone whose handwriting was legible. Reading through most of the full scores done by Williams' various orchestrators is like trying to decipher alien hieroglyphs the majority of the time. I was a better copyist back when I was in middle school band, for goodness sake.

I know what you mean, but in all fairness, a lot of the illegibility seems to be due to poor photocopying, at least in the scores I have. I mean, the Jurassic Park scores are nice copies, and they look fine, but then there are scores like Raiders and TOD that require a lot of scrutiny and a good ear to get right. (I've been doing the same thing you are!)

Somewhat off-topic, but are you the friend of Clark's who's done a variety of Williams engravings in Finale?

[BTR1701 55]

You'd think if that was the case, they'd at least find someone whose handwriting was legible. Reading through most of the full scores done by Williams' various orchestrators is like trying to decipher alien hieroglyphs the majority of the time. I was a better copyist back when I was in middle school band, for goodness sake.

I know what you mean, but in all fairness, a lot of the illegibility seems to be due to poor photocopying, at least in the scores I have. I mean, the Jurassic Park scores are nice copies, and they look fine, but then there are scores like Raiders and TOD that require a lot of scrutiny and a good ear to get right. (I've been doing the same thing you are!)

Somewhat off-topic, but are you the friend of Clark's who's done a variety of Williams engravings in Finale?

Yes, I am. In fact, I just sent Clark a new one today-- "The Asteroid Field" from ESB. That one was a first for me and a heck of a challenge. All I had to work from was the condensed score (no orchestrations at all), which in addition to being typically hard to read, only notates instrumentation in broad terms (e.g., "brass" or "strings"), so I had to rely heavily on the soundtrack recording to figure out who was playing what in a lot of places.

It's also the actual cue off the soundtrack album. All the versions of the "The Asteroid Field" I've seen floating around the net are concert arrangements that leave off the fantastic Imperial March intro and the coda as the Falcon comes to rest inside the asteroid cave. My version follows the recording from start to finish.

Having wrapped that one up, I was mapping out the layout to my next project-- the JP cue-- when I came across the Mike Fisher notation. As Henry Buck kindly pointed out above, it's apparently a percussion line written specifically for a certain performer-- something I've never seen done before. I wonder why Neufeld singled out a percussionist in the score but didn't do the same for any other instrument? Curious.

I think Mike Fisher is the name of a performer, not an instrument. It's probably this guy. Jurassic Park is one of his credits.

That certainly would seem to make the most sense. Such an odd thing to do in an orchestral score, though. Singling out one performer for special notation like that. Bizarre.

[Henry B 49]

I think Mike Fisher is the name of a performer, not an instrument. It's probably this guy. Jurassic Park is one of his credits.

That certainly would seem to make the most sense. Such an odd thing to do in an orchestral score, though. Singling out one performer for special notation like that. Bizarre.

Percussion notation is not exactly standardized. Perhaps Williams wrote in a convention that he knew his performer would understand.

[Datameister 1,394]

Yes, I am. In fact, I just sent Clark a new one today-- "The Asteroid Field" from ESB. That one was a first for me and a heck of a challenge. All I had to work from was the condensed score (no orchestrations at all), which in addition to being typically hard to read, only notates instrumentation in broad terms (e.g., "brass" or "strings"), so I had to rely heavily on the soundtrack recording to figure out who was playing what in a lot of places.

Ah, yes! I was actually the one who sent him that sketch in the first place. <_< Good stuff!

[Joe Brausam 203]

Oh, you're Clark's friend? You've done some awesome work!

[BTR1701 55]

Oh, you're Clark's friend? You've done some awesome work!

Thanks. I just got tired of having all this awesome material but having it in such an almost unreadable format. I taught myself how to use Finale and started transcribing a cue here and a cue there and before I knew it, I had a real library of work going.

I assume if you've seen my stuff, Clark's been sharing, which is cool. The more people who enjoy it, the better. I'm certainly not one of those stingy people I've run into (mostly on other music sites) who jealously hoards what they've got and won't share unless they get something they deem worthy in return.

If you like, I'd be happy to add you to my e-mail list and send the scores directly to you as I finish them.

You can view a complete list of what I have available here:

http://www.pianofiles.com/user/785546/sheets

[compos24 0]

parodied in Danny Elfman's Mars Attacks!. Speaking of the theremin, I want to say that I hear it at the end of "Presenting the Hook", does anyone else hear it?

Hey Nick - I didn't realize that you made a topic devoted to this. I'll have to start checking in more regularly...

Regarding the question of the presence of a Theremin in Hook - where in the track do you think it appears? I am not at my home computer, so I can't verify it for you now.

I have a slight guess at what you're talking about...but I can't be sure.

Let me know! - Anybody.

[Muad'Dib 1,514]

I don't know if I should post this here, but as for the violin-glissando question they suggested something of an orchestration topic, I think my question should go here... Sorry if it has been asked before, but how's called the horn effect in the beggining of the action part of "The Raptors Appear" from TLW? All composers use that effect, but I would like to know if it has an specific name.

As always, thanks in advance.

[Nick Parker 3,017]

I know what you are referring to, but I am afraid I cannot identify what that is.

Regarding the question of the presence of a Theremin in Hook - where in the track do you think it appears?

Hold on, I need to go to Youtube.com...alright, try to start listening for it at about 2:41.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,064]

Thinking of wrong track.

[Nick Parker 3,017]

That was the word I was thinking of, but I am not sure if that is correct.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,064]

that's called blowing air into the instrument at high velocity.

[Joe Brausam 203]

I don't know if I should post this here, but as for the violin-glissando question they suggested something of an orchestration topic, I think my question should go here... Sorry if it has been asked before, but how's called the horn effect in the beggining of the action part of "The Raptors Appear" from TLW? All composers use that effect, but I would like to know if it has an specific name.

As always, thanks in advance.

It's a "rip".

[Muad'Dib 1,514]

I don't know if I should post this here, but as for the violin-glissando question they suggested something of an orchestration topic, I think my question should go here... Sorry if it has been asked before, but how's called the horn effect in the beggining of the action part of "The Raptors Appear" from TLW? All composers use that effect, but I would like to know if it has an specific name.

As always, thanks in advance.

It's a "rip".

Really interesting. Thanks! It must be hard to play. I tried that effect on my trumpet several times, but only once I got it right. Of course, horn and trumpet are different instruments, so it sounded preety different on the trumpet.

[Joe Brausam 203]

It's actually pretty simple on horn. The notes are naturally so close together that ripping through them is easy, the only hard part is landing on the right pitch!

[Jeshopk 8]

If you like that string gliss effect, try listening to it as a celli harmonic gliss in Firebird. About 2 minutes in from the opening right before a low flute solo.

To other orchestrators here. Isn't it somewhat annoying to keep track of last dynamics in full score? I wish Sibelius 6 would ghost the last dynamic for every staff at the beginning of each page, just to ensure against human error.

[Joe Brausam 203]

And I wish Finale would do the same!

Normally I just put in the obvious dynamics and adjust them during the first rehearsal, then input that into Finale for my final version of something.