Is Williams a great man?

[Hlao-roo 388]

Consider the facts:

• A divided JWFAN community declared in 2003 that Williams is "the greatest composer ever."
  
• An equally divided JWFAN community affirmed in 2004 and 2008 that John Williams is actually human.
  

Given his compositional greatness and his human status (male we can more or less assume), can we then fairly conclude that he is a "great man"? Or does that label connote something that even Williams, for all his achievements, has yet to demonstrate? Or is this, in fact, a determination that is impossible to make based on what is publicly known about him?

[Ollie 859]

Don't really know too much about him personally.

So I can't really say he is a great man.

[Datameister 1,394]

4.5 stars.

Oh, wait...yes, he is, at least in terms of success as an artist. Is he a really great person in the moral sense? Cannot determine based on available evidence, though nothing I've seen indicates he's not.

[Hlao-roo 388]

Is he a really great person in the moral sense?

Is moral greatness what usually comes to mind when you hear the term "great man"?

[Ollie 859]

That's a factor.

[Henry B 49]

oh dear

[Datameister 1,394]

Is moral greatness what usually comes to mind when you hear the term "great man"?

It's one of the things that comes to mind, yes. What did you have in mind?

[John Crichton 4]

Anyway, this poll is kind of stupid. Sorry!

[Ollie 859]

Don't you start.

[John Crichton 4]

[indy4 152]

edit

I hate it when I type something and then realize it's not funny.

[Nick Parker 3,017]

Yeah, that happens to me quite a bit. Even more unfortunate for you guys is when I do not delete it (which happens quite a bit as well)....

[Koray Savas 2,095]

Don't really know too much about him personally.

So I can't really say he is a great man.

[Diego 21]

Yes he is.

[Red 73]

He's great at what he does...

[Charlie Brigden 5]

I have no idea. He seems cool enough, and has made a lot of great music. But he could be the film scoring world's Jeffrey Dahmer for all I know. There's a ton of people who make great art but aren't exactly stellar people.

[Diego 21]

But he has brought a lot of joy to the world through his music, wouldn't that make him a great man??

[Koray Savas 2,095]

Not really.

[Hlao-roo 388]

Is moral greatness what usually comes to mind when you hear the term "great man"?

It's one of the things that comes to mind, yes. What did you have in mind?

I didn't have anything in particular in mind; I'm merely curious about what others think constitutes a "great man." For me, one of the first images that pops into my head is that of Martin Luther King, Jr. Without delving too much into his political views, I think most of us are pretty agreeable to some of the changes he helped engender with regard to civil rights as well as the general methods he used to go about it.

I find myself prepared to say fairly positively that King was a great man -- even though I never knew him personally, and despite sordid details that have emerged about his womanizing, philandering ways. In my mind, perhaps, his moral triumphs overshadowed his moral failings.

At the same time, I acknowledge that it may be presumptuous to ascribe personal greatness to someone without really having gotten to know him or her. Perhaps we are on firmer ground when we reserve the label for someone like our father or mother or other close friend. And, indeed, many have described their fathers as "great men" -- because of the way they sacrificed for their families, the way they stayed faithful to their wives, the way they inculcated character and values into their children. They didn't change the world, but in the lives of their family members, they made a world of difference. Maybe that's what it really means to be great.

But all this emphasis on morality seems to diminish the greatness to be had in other realms. Music, for instance, a way of expressing ourselves that is so primal, so rudimentary that it has been described as the language of the soul. And when we find particular expressions of it that speak deeply and meaningfully to us and to others, perhaps that is something to cherish, to celebrate. Many of us acknowledge Williams as one of the most gifted practitioners of this language in this history of our species. His music has moved us both internally and externally -- externally in the sense that he has surely played some role in inspiring countless individuals to pursue music vocationally or avocationally.

That breadth and depth of touch and influence -- is that greatness? Not just in a musical sense, but in a human sense? Again, is he just a talented composer, or is he also a great man?

[Unlucky Bastard 7,765]

Don't try to be a great man, just be a man, and let history take its course.

[Charlie Brigden 5]

But please quit with the Roy Orbison.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,765]

Let's rock 'n roll!

[indy4 152]

Since there really are no specifications on what "great" means in this poll, I think we should use the most general definition, "used as a generalized term of approval" (from Merriam Webster).

For me, there are two things that must be considered when determining whether or not one is great (at least this form of the word):

1. Having a positive effect on the world:

This is something that is quite easy to attribute to John Williams. The most obvious example of him bringing pleasure to us is in the pleasure we take from his music. As Alan said, it has inspired many to pursue a career in music, but I think it has also just helped on a simpler level--enchanting us, entertaining us, cheering us up, etc. Then beyond the world of obsessive soundtrack collectors, he has improved the world of film by writing scores that are effective and enhance the film going experience. This helps two groups in the world: the filmmakers and the audiences. The first is the audiences--they enjoy/get more out of a film when JW writes a good score, which brings the film critical and financial success. This helps all those who worked on the film, financially for the producers and sponsors, but both financially and emotionally for the directors, actors, make-up artists, etc. Finally, it can be argued that Williams' music has served an even higher purpose--it has carried the messages of the films it was written for. This may not bear so much weight for scores like, say, Indiana Jones. But take for instance the score to Schindler's List--it serves as a remembrance, much as the film does, so we do not forget the mistakes made by the Nazis and the bystanders, and in that way we are one step closer to preventing future genocides (a small step, mind you, but a step none-the-less). The music does this in two ways: by enhancing the film and thus making it more memorable in our minds, and by presenting the emotional backbone (which is what the theme of any film is derived from) in musical form. So I think it's clear that Williams' music has had a positive effect on the world. It should probably be noted that this effect must be intentional--this is what seperates a man who makes a great act from a great man who makes a great act.

2. Moral Strength

This is harder to attribute to Williams, but we can make a few assumptions based on what we know about the man. He doesn't hold any known prejudices. By some of the projects he's scored we can assume he holds no grudge against African Americans, Jewish people, Irish people, or Muggles. So he seems pretty sound in this area. We know he's incredibly humble--I don't think I've ever heard him criticize anybody publicly, in contrast to people like Goldsmith, Horner, or Herrmann. Beyond that, we haven't really found any evidence to suggest he is morally weak.

So I'd say yes, he is a great man from what we can gather about his life.

[Henry B 49]

By some of the projects he's scored we can assume he holds no grudge against African Americans, Jewish people, Irish people, or Muggles.

Wow.

[indy4 152]

Yes? He's scored films that warn about hatred targeted at Jews, African Americans, Irish people, I think we can assume he agrees with the message of the film he's scoring.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,765]

He must hate Eskimos then.

[JoeinAR 1,759]

who knows, he is a great film music composer, that does not make a great man.

[Henry B 49]

Yes? He's scored films that warn about hatred targeted at Jews, African Americans, Irish people, I think we can assume he agrees with the message of the film he's scoring.

You mentioned Muggles and I wasn't sure what to say.

[Hlao-roo 388]

1. Having a positive effect on the world:

This is something that is quite easy to attribute to John Williams. The most obvious example of him bringing pleasure to us is in the pleasure we take from his music. As Alan said, it has inspired many to pursue a career in music, but I think it has also just helped on a simpler level--enchanting us, entertaining us, cheering us up, etc. Then beyond the world of obsessive soundtrack collectors, he has improved the world of film by writing scores that are effective and enhance the film going experience. This helps two groups in the world: the filmmakers and the audiences. The first is the audiences--they enjoy/get more out of a film when JW writes a good score, which brings the film critical and financial success. This helps all those who worked on the film, financially for the producers and sponsors, but both financially and emotionally for the directors, actors, make-up artists, etc. Finally, it can be argued that Williams' music has served an even higher purpose--it has carried the messages of the films it was written for. This may not bear so much weight for scores like, say, Indiana Jones. But take for instance the score to Schindler's List--it serves as a remembrance, much as the film does, so we do not forget the mistakes made by the Nazis and the bystanders, and in that way we are one step closer to preventing future genocides (a small step, mind you, but a step none-the-less). The music does this in two ways: by enhancing the film and thus making it more memorable in our minds, and by presenting the emotional backbone (which is what the theme of any film is derived from) in musical form. So I think it's clear that Williams' music has had a positive effect on the world. It should probably be noted that this effect must be intentional--this is what seperates a man who makes a great act from a great man who makes a great act.

I think this overall pretty sound analysis. Obviously, most of your assertions would be difficult or impossible to assess empirically -- and I'm still not necessarily persuaded one way or the other about Williams being a "great man" -- but I think you make a good case here in terms of the potential reach of Williams's music.

Ultimately it may come down to the degree to which one believes art substantively impacts the world for good or for ill and how much one associates that impact with the artist.

The second part of your argument ("Moral Strength") is definitely weaker, but you seem to already sense that.

[Koray Savas 2,095]

It's convincing, but you can easily say that for other people/artists. Russell Crowe may bring happiness to many people through his movies, but he can be an asshole and throw a phone at you.

[JoeinAR 1,759]

for the record there are alot of great men who have been morally defective.

[Henry B 49]

There are also a lot of not so great men who have been morally perfect. You know, those morally perfect people.

[Hlao-roo 388]

I don't know anyone who isn't morally defective in some way. Which is why in my brief analysis of MLK I put forth the suggestion that perhaps certain moral shortcomings can be overlooked in assessing a given person's "greatness."

There are also a lot of not so great men who have been morally perfect. You know, those morally perfect people.

This is true.

[JoeinAR 1,759]

There are also a lot of not so great men who have been morally perfect. You know, those morally perfect people.

the Senator Palpatines of the real world.

[Jeshopk 8]

Spiritual reverence for nature.

Caring father.

Higher goals than just commerce.

Brings joy and inspiration to millions through his work.

Donates millions to the arts.

I think he is a great man.

[indy4 152]

Yes? He's scored films that warn about hatred targeted at Jews, African Americans, Irish people, I think we can assume he agrees with the message of the film he's scoring.

You mentioned Muggles and I wasn't sure what to say.

Ah, okay

The second part of your argument ("Moral Strength") is definitely weaker, but you seem to already sense that.

Yeah, I think in order to fully know this one would have to know a person pretty closely. I was tempted to use his political convictions as proof of his moral righteousness, but I decided that would get me banned.

[Henry B 49]

The second part of your argument ("Moral Strength") is definitely weaker, but you seem to already sense that.

Yeah, I think in order to fully know this one would have to know a person pretty closely. I was tempted to use his political convictions as proof of his moral righteousness, but I decided that would get me banned.

It would also be an incredibly dubious simplification.

[indy4 152]

Yeah, but so are pretty much all the assumptions I made in that argument.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,476]

Don't try to be a great man, just be a man, and let history take its course.

Rhetorical nonsense. Who said that?

I voted "Cannot determine based on available evidence". I personally think he's a great composer and generally he comes off like a nice guy. But this greatness thing. What is it? How do you get it? Who doesn't have it and who decides who doesn't have it? What is the essence of greatness?

[Unlucky Bastard 7,765]

Any libertarian composers?

[Neimoidian 13]

John Williams? He is great, man!

[OneBuckFilms 181]

I cannot say whether or not he is a great man. But he IS a great composer.

[pixie_twinkle 44]

To be great one has to devote one's life to achieving something astonishing. John Williams has clearly met that goal. In so far as any man can be great I believe John Williams meets the criteria.

[Trent B 317]

"Believing one self to be perfect is often the sign of a delusional mind!" - Data

[Wojo 2,442]

Ah yes, but that quotation describes perfection, which is an idealized state of greatness. Perfection is the ultimate, unattainable goal of being great. And it is oriented as a first person belief, not the projection of greatness we ascribe to Williams in the third person. If Williams is humble, he will not toot his own horn and openly profess to be great. He'll just sit back and let the world confirm what he already knows.

So while I voted agnostically based on not knowing how great Williams is on a day to day basis, I have firsthand evidence of how great a composer and conductor he is. That's good great enough for me.

[Richard Penna 2,083]

Great composer? Yes.

Great man? How the hell should we know.

Honestly, have we completely run out of music to talk about?

[Henry B 49]

Clearly.

[Hunter 0]

Perhaps the best way to judge whether Williams is a 'great man', is to see how others who personally know him describe his character. Along with his inferiors, both past and present.

[Jeshopk 8]

The wise man cares nothing for what others think of him.

[Melange 446]

Is Williams a great man?

A great artist, yes. But a great man?

Williams might kick his dog in composing frustration, for all we know.

I mean, Wagner and Mozart were both great composers.

But as people, quite unpleasant if we go by personal letters and writings.

We all have our public face, and we all have the side others don't see.

I'd add that usually the greatest artists of history are contradictory people.

The contradictions and imbalance is usually what makes them so creative