Sandor 459 Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 I remember reading that George Lucas doubted before the scoring of ROTJ that Williams would be able to capture the evil and malice of The Emperor character into a significant musical theme. Do you feel he succeeded in doing that?I'm somewhat torn about this matter. On one hand I feel Williams did a great job by adding a chorus. Yet, melodically I feel the theme is a bit lacking nonetheless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oierem 87 Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 He succeded. The Emperor's Theme is one of my personal favourites, and the low male chorus perfectly captures the pure evil and the dark satanic imagery of the Emperor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Parker 3,017 Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 He leapt 50 feet into the air, grabbed the expectation bar with his mighty hands, and ripped it into two with "The Dark Side Beckons" alone. I am curious, though, where did you hear of this? I would love to read or watch some in-depth coverage of John Williams' scoring process to Star Wars Episode VI: Return of the Jedi, similar to that one BBC documentary.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,519 Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 I have always felt Williams captured the essence of evil with Emperor's theme equally well as with Darth Vader's theme. They are completely different, representing to me the two different sides of Evil. Darth Vader's music is martial, threathning in a very direct fashion, oppressive, in your face. It does have its different variations when we delve more into the Vader's character but this is to me its main use, direct, brutal and relentless.Emperor's theme on the other hand depicts a different character and what he represents with such perfection. This frail looking old man, more of a shell of a human being, bent, disfigured but in this man resides the pure evil Vader can't hope to match. Where Vader is direct Emperor is subtle, manipulative and the one controlling things behind the scenes. Williams' music is at least in the beginning depicts this image, man robed in black that has an aura of palpable evil and power around him. Mystical and slightly ominous because of the choir, in some ways seductive in its up and down motion, this theme represents a very self assured evil, especially when he is taunting Luke. It is also quite monastic with its male choir, almost always slow, nearly solemn, a perfect antithesis to the Force theme representing its opposing ideology, the Sith. Most of all it denotes a ominous presence of evil that Palpatine is rising to flashy orchestral heights only at key moments when Palpatine's evil is revealed in full force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wojo 2,442 Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 That explains it nicely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red 73 Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 Yes, he definitely succeeded. It just spells evil, more than maybe any other Williams theme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uni 306 Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 He leapt 50 feet into the air, grabbed the expectation bar with his mighty hands, and ripped it into two with "The Dark Side Beckons" alone. I am curious, though, where did you hear of this? I would love to read or watch some in-depth coverage of John Williams' scoring process to Star Wars Episode VI: Return of the Jedi, similar to that one BBC documentary....I have to say . . . you're gifted in area of figurative speech. I enjoy reading your stuff. Keep practicing, and you're bound to become a really sharp writer. Or as another said it:"We shall watch your career with great interest. . . ."- Uni Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 1,394 Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 Yes, definitely. I'm in agreement with everyone else...the theme does a marvelous job of evoking the true evil that Palpatine embodies. Incanus said it really well. I'd say the theme sounds even more evil than the Imperial March. The male chorus and scurrying strings really make me feel...bad! In a good way! Sure, the melody sounds stupid if you sing it fast - no, that wasn't a jab at Augie's - but that can happen to even the best themes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maestro 57 Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 I love Incanus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeshopk 8 Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 In Return of the Jedi, it sounds sufficiently evil, but in the other scores, the singers don't close their mouths enough into little "o"'s, don't sing from the diaphragm, and don't give enough vibrato. Except for in Jedi, it almost sounds more like a sampled choir, which is not scary. The tune itself is perfectly descriptive, beyond just "evil" but "root evil". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 1,394 Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 I think some of the very best statements are in ROTJ...TPM's abundant statements are good, and they don't sound sampled at all to me, but they're not as great as ROTJ's shiver-inducing statements. However, I'd say the unreleased statement in ROTS is excellent...actually, when I got home from seeing the film for the first time, that was what was stuck in my head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,519 Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 In Return of the Jedi, it sounds sufficiently evil, but in the other scores, the singers don't close their mouths enough into little "o"'s, don't sing from the diaphragm, and don't give enough vibrato. Except for in Jedi, it almost sounds more like a sampled choir, which is not scary. The tune itself is perfectly descriptive, beyond just "evil" but "root evil".Very well said. Root evil. It really sounds like archtype of evil. It is what I call a good musical characterization, evil music which actually evokes such feeling of dread but is also instantly likeable. To me Emperor's theme is very dramatically evil, the choir being indeed ominous but not scary as horror music.Oh and I think the ROTJ choral sound for the theme is a bit deeper than in the Prequels. Also Williams forgets the B-phrase of the theme entirely in the Prequels which leads to some rather clunky repetitions of the main phrase back to back in some scenes. Luckily the Emperor's theme is not performed in longer scenes and Williams can end it usually before the repetition.ROTS curiously loses the choral element of the theme save for the scene where the Emperor is escorting Vader to the medical facilities on Coruscant. All other appearances of the melody are purely orchestral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie 45 Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 It's one of the few Star Wars themes (let alone themes in general) that regularly literally gives me goosebumps.Imperial March - the evil of power through military actionEmperor's Theme - the evil of power through persuasion and manipulation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hlao-roo 388 Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 He leapt 50 feet into the air, grabbed the expectation bar with his mighty hands, and ripped it into two with "The Dark Side Beckons" alone. I am curious, though, where did you hear of this? I would love to read or watch some in-depth coverage of John Williams' scoring process to Star Wars Episode VI: Return of the Jedi, similar to that one BBC documentary....I have to say . . . you're gifted in area of figurative speech. I enjoy reading your stuff. Keep practicing, and you're bound to become a really sharp writer. Or as another said it:"We shall watch your career with great interest. . . ."- UniHeh, I would have to agree with you, Uni. I couldn't hack it as an English major in college myself, but I do appreciate good writing when I see it. "Nick" is one the younger members around here, but his facility with English is just about as good as anyone else's. (That he supposedly learned much of it from an early 20th century grammar book is all the more impressive.) And, yes, Maestro, no else at this board explicates film music on as consistently high a level as Incanus does.ROTS curiously loses the choral element of the theme save for the scene where the Emperor is escorting Vader to the medical facilities on Coruscant. All other appearances of the melody are purely orchestral.I think it has something to do with the sensibilities of film scoring at the time in contrast with those of today. Today's standards more or less obligate a composer to lean heavily on choral backing to achieve the "epic [wall of] sound" that filmmakers want and that audiences have come to expect in their blockbusters. Williams is smart enough to keep up with the times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aj_vader 407 Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 As powerful as The Imperial March is The Emperor's Theme is very strong and powerful. Williams definatley succeeded with his theme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 1,394 Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 Nice to see this theme getting proper recognition...for some reason, I'd developed the perception that a lot of members here weren't that into the theme. Go figure! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Brigden 5 Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 I think he succeeded big time. I think its best use is in 'Emperor's Throne Room', it's so full of malice and a real tangible sense of evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissPadmé 17 Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 such a great theme: only minor chords.. you can't fail with minor chords, I says! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 859 Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 Nice to see this theme getting proper recognition...for some reason, I'd developed the perception that a lot of members here weren't that into the theme. Go figure! The quality of the film and character it was composed for may be a reason, at least to some members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLUMENKOHL 1,064 Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 The character it was composed for was one of the redeeming qualities of the movie... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 859 Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 Perhaps but there are those who were put off by the portrayal.The "cackling old villian" didn't click with everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red 73 Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 The character it was composed for was one of the redeeming qualities of the movie...Yes. The whole score itself was another redeeming factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Crichton 4 Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 The character it was composed for was one of the redeeming qualities of the movie...And the prequels.Can of worms- OPEN! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 859 Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 Damn your hide Crichton!!!! Them words mean war!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Crichton 4 Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 Giddeup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 859 Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 Reach fer your guns, Imma callin you out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,476 Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 The character it was composed for was one of the redeeming qualities of the movie...I remember getting the old Emperor action figure as a kid and just hating it. What a piece of crap. I found out later that they were literally giving those away when you bought other ROTJ toys.The theme is fantastic. I love the march version created for the Super Return of the Jedi game overture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry B 49 Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 I think some of the very best statements are in ROTJ...TPM's abundant statements are good, and they don't sound sampled at all to me, but they're not as great as ROTJ's shiver-inducing statements. However, I'd say the unreleased statement in ROTS is excellent...actually, when I got home from seeing the film for the first time, that was what was stuck in my head.Really? You'd probably like the super dramatic action take on the theme from "I Am the Senate." Most people don't even know what it sounds like because it was cut from the film in favor of tracking the same section of action material three damn times! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 1,394 Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 Really? You'd probably like the super dramatic action take on the theme from "I Am the Senate." Most people don't even know what it sounds like because it was cut from the film in favor of tracking the same section of action material three damn times!I am familiar with that statement...I'm actually not a big fan. It's a little too melodramatic for my tastes. Didn't stop me from including it in my edit, though. I didn't realize that any of the music was tracked, though...I'll have to go listen to it again. I thought it all just played once through, though there are certainly similar parts. ::listens:: Uh, I think there's only one tracked section. There are four distinct sections that contain that fighting motif, so I can understand why you'd think that they tracked three of them, but I think what you're hearing is a single, longer passage that's tracked once. I compared them in Audacity to be sure. Now, do we know where exactly that statement of the Emperor's theme was supposed to fit in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,519 Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 I think some of the very best statements are in ROTJ...TPM's abundant statements are good, and they don't sound sampled at all to me, but they're not as great as ROTJ's shiver-inducing statements. However, I'd say the unreleased statement in ROTS is excellent...actually, when I got home from seeing the film for the first time, that was what was stuck in my head.Really? You'd probably like the super dramatic action take on the theme from "I Am the Senate." Most people don't even know what it sounds like because it was cut from the film in favor of tracking the same section of action material three damn times!Well the version that I have of "I Am the Senate" has that Emperor's theme variation on brass which is just brilliant. For the first and the last time it is heard in so openly aggressive form. It is a shame it was cut as there would have been a nice juxtaposition of the Emperor's theme and the Force theme in the scene suggesting a struggle of ideologies as well as of people. And I have no trouble of SW music being melodramatic. EDIT: Syncing the version I have with the film produces a near perfect fit and plays out very smoothly following transitions between Anakin and the duel and the Emperor's theme is always synced with shots of Palpatine. Shame that is was not used. It gives his struggle more edge and significance as he is dueling Mace Windu. It enhances the determination and ferocity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oierem 87 Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 Gosh,I love Incanus' posts About ROTS, it is a shame that the statement in "I Am The Senate" didn't make the final cut, but in my opinion, that makes the tracking of the Emperor's theme in the post-Mace's Death scenes even more necesary. I have to agree with the tracking of the theme in that scene, and I think Williams was wrong not using it. For me, the choral statement while the Emperor finally puts the hood on is absolutely brilliant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SF1_freeze 104 Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 The Emperor's theme belongs among my top five favourite Star Wars themes and it emits the pure evil perfectly that the Emperor stands for. The most development and the mostenergetic statements occur in RotJ but also in TPM and ROTS it is used very well and properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeshopk 8 Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 Syncing the version I have with the film produces a near perfect fit and plays out very smoothly following transitions between Anakin and the duel and the Emperor's theme is always synced with shots of Palpatine. Shame that is was not used. It gives his struggle more edge and significance as he is dueling Mace Windu. It enhances the determination and ferocity.I would support Nuremberg trials for filmmakers who digitally re-arrange cues of their composer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artyjeffrey 20 Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 I remember reading that George Lucas doubted before the scoring of ROTJ that Williams would be able to capture the evil and malice of The Emperor character into a significant musical theme. The other question then is, was George Lucas able to capture the evil and malice of the Emperor character? (All prequel lovers begin to huddle together now, angrily)Oh, btw, I remember sending off a few proofs-of-purchase to receive my Emperor action figure in the mail! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry B 49 Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Syncing the version I have with the film produces a near perfect fit and plays out very smoothly following transitions between Anakin and the duel and the Emperor's theme is always synced with shots of Palpatine. Shame that is was not used. It gives his struggle more edge and significance as he is dueling Mace Windu. It enhances the determination and ferocity.I would support Nuremberg trials for filmmakers who digitally re-arrange cues of their composer.Even King Lucas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demodex 479 Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 Oh and I think the ROTJ choral sound for the theme is a bit deeper than in the Prequels. Also Williams forgets the B-phrase of the theme entirely in the Prequels...There's a B-phrase? Where is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie 45 Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 Oh and I think the ROTJ choral sound for the theme is a bit deeper than in the Prequels. Also Williams forgets the B-phrase of the theme entirely in the Prequels...There's a B-phrase? Where is that?He means the sinister repeated-note motif that he borrowed from the E.T. score, I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,519 Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 Oh and I think the ROTJ choral sound for the theme is a bit deeper than in the Prequels. Also Williams forgets the B-phrase of the theme entirely in the Prequels...There's a B-phrase? Where is that?He means the sinister repeated-note motif that he borrowed from the E.T. score, I believe.In Return of the Jedi the Emperor's theme has first the main phrase and then followed by what I call the B phrase which has a different ending compared to the A-phrase. In ROTJ The Emperor Arrives 1;22-1;37. This flows much better and in more natural way than just repeating the first phrase twice as JW seems to be doing in the Prequels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry B 49 Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 Oh and I think the ROTJ choral sound for the theme is a bit deeper than in the Prequels. Also Williams forgets the B-phrase of the theme entirely in the Prequels...There's a B-phrase? Where is that?He means the sinister repeated-note motif that he borrowed from the E.T. score, I believe.In Return of the Jedi the Emperor's theme has first the main phrase and then followed by what I call the B phrase which has a different ending compared to the A-phrase. In ROTJ The Emperor Arrives 1;22-1;37. This flows much better and in more natural way than just repeating the first phrase twice as JW seems to be doing in the Prequels.It's more complicated than that, though. Williams does repeat the "A phrase" in a way, but he always varies it. Often in The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones he modulates down a whole step for the second phrase and ends it early to transition to different material. Not sure how it's handled in Revenge of the Sith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,519 Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 That is true but it never feels as natural or fitting as this "B-phrase". In Williams' defense in most cases though it would not be possible to insert it as the scenes are not long enough for both the "A- and B-phrase" to appear back to back but even when it would be possible he does not use it. Williams also uses a lot of different accompaniments for the choral theme in the Prequels, high strings, dark brass etc. to accentuate it in different scenes. In Episode I these short cues usually have to flow into orchestral music to accomodate a scene change. Same goes for the other 2 Prequels. In a way Williams has to keep it short because the scenes do not allow full usage and has to find ways to insert it so it makes impact but can weave fast in and out. One time it would have fitted into a scene is where Anakin is taken to the medical facility and there Williams just repeats the "A-phrase" which is a shame in my opinion.I just find it a shame the complete theme never has a chance to stretch its legs in the Prequels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 27,216 Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 Good thread, I like this discussion.It's making me want to listen to the prequel scores again. I'd like to compare it to the ROTJ performances, and I also never really noticed that it only gets choir accompaniment once in ROTS. Seems like ROTS should have had the most choir of all the films if you ask me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,285 Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 well at least the full blown statement is for ROTJ, as it should be... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,391 Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 I remember reading that George Lucas doubted before the scoring of ROTJ that Williams would be able to capture the evil and malice of The Emperor character into a significant musical theme.It seems George Lucas is capable of doubting everyone's ability but his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 27,216 Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 haha, good observation. sad, but true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandor 459 Posted July 21, 2009 Author Share Posted July 21, 2009 He seemed to like Ahmed Best a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeinAR 1,759 Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 well the Emperor's theme is more evil than the emperor ever was.Is that success? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,391 Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Actually, I'd say their evil is matched. Good 'ol McDiarmid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeinAR 1,759 Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 oh I wouldn't, the Emperor as played by McDiarmid is a flaccid cackling bore. He's not menacing in the slightest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandor 459 Posted July 22, 2009 Author Share Posted July 22, 2009 oh I wouldn't, the Emperor as played by McDiarmid is a flaccid cackling bore. He's not menacing in the slightest.Disagree. A lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeinAR 1,759 Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 oh big surprise,you give way to much power to a caricature.There just isn't enough weight behind him to be a real character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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