Avatar (2009)

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

the upper limbs, four are much better than just two, it would be biologically stupid to make the effort to lose them. The navi live in trees, additional sets of arms would be great.

Can't you see the point?

Sort of, but...

It might be biologically stupid, on Earth, or on a planet with stronger gravity.

But the fact is, six limbs is more biologically stupid on a planet that has low gravity. The more limbs you have, the better you can distribute your weight with respect to gravity. More limbs also means more energy consumption

In a low-gravity world such as Pandora, especially with the Na'Vi taking a weight-shedding path in evolution with carbon fiber bones and what not, it's completely plausible that Na'Vi that were lighter, with a much more efficent weight distribution for bipedal lifestyle (there's a reason our arms come out of our shoulders and not lower on our torso, because the lower you attach weights on the human body the more inefficient the system becomes.) would survive over their 6 limbed counterparts.

It makes perfect sense that a more efficient breed would survive over inefficient ones.

[Morlock 11]

On a list of things that don't make perfect sense, are the evolutionary tendencies of the creatues on Pandora really that note-worthy?

Morlock- who found that strange while watching the film, but far, far, far down the list

[Wojo 2,453]

I think that our arms emerge from our shoulders because that is where the shoulders of a quadrupedal animal are. Now granted, your dog doesn't have the same kind of ball-and-socket shoulder joints that we do, but if our shoulders were lower down, we wouldn't have that type of joint either.

It doesn't make sense for the Na'Vi to have only four arms if all the other animals on their planet have six. Fish evolved from some kind of lower invertebrate, and developed multiple fins. More than four. Then they evolve to climb ashore and live on land as amphibians. The extra fins are discarded, bringing us down to four limbs. That becomes standard fare for the reptiles, birds, and mammals that evolve. (Legless snakes are evil; ignore them.) Yes, birds have two wings instead. And yes, bipedal creatures like us have two legs and two arms, but the point is that evolution does not add or remove legs after deciding that amphibians worked best with four. (Yes, invertebrates have wide ranges of legs, like ants, spiders, centipedes, and clams, but they're not descended from fish.)

I can buy that something in Pandora's history said six legs was standard. But for something to strip two legs from the sentient bipeds and not the other land animals? I don't buy it.

Conclusion? Large six legged animals look alien and exotic.

[QMM 4]

and now my enjoyment of the movie is ruined.

Wait. No it isn't.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

That's what analysis strives for. Ruining a good work.

[Wojo 2,453]

Then I shouldn't have watched that video review of Star Trek: First Contact on YouTube. I used to love that movie. Now I see it for the piece of illogical garbage that it is.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

I think that our arms emerge from our shoulders because that is where the shoulders of a quadrupedal animal are. Now granted, your dog doesn't have the same kind of ball-and-socket shoulder joints that we do, but if our shoulders were lower down, we wouldn't have that type of joint either.

It doesn't make sense for the Na'Vi to have only four arms if all the other animals on their planet have six. Fish evolved from some kind of lower invertebrate, and developed multiple fins. More than four. Then they evolve to climb ashore and live on land as amphibians. The extra fins are discarded, bringing us down to four limbs. That becomes standard fare for the reptiles, birds, and mammals that evolve. (Legless snakes are evil; ignore them.) Yes, birds have two wings instead. And yes, bipedal creatures like us have two legs and two arms, but the point is that evolution does not add or remove legs after deciding that amphibians worked best with four. (Yes, invertebrates have wide ranges of legs, like ants, spiders, centipedes, and clams, but they're not descended from fish.)

I can buy that something in Pandora's history said six legs was standard. But for something to strip two legs from the sentient bipeds and not the other land animals? I don't buy it.

Conclusion? Large six legged animals look alien and exotic.

thanks

(i looked yesterday into fish anatomy, and learnt that they have both pectoral and pelvic fins, son they still have 4 limbs, the other fins must be appendages made from ribbons or vertebrae or something...)

Anyways, it was minor observation-complaint, people had make harsher reviews and they have not been discussed. Somehow i always start endless discussions ...

The movie cannot be that bad in my eyes if i only complain about fire, water and two limbed humanoids, doesnt it?

[Wojo 2,453]

Yes, I'm afraid I am not familiar with the ancestor of fish, to know what kind of invertebrate only had four limbs before growing that backbone and becoming a fish. I didn't realize that their other fins were not truly limbs. I just know that from watching them in my tank and catching them in lakes that they have independent control over these fins, so they function like limbs in the water for navigation.

two limbed humanoids

Before Henry points it out, I know you meant four limbed. It'd be a dull movie if the Na'Vi ran around with their hands in their pockets to emulate two-limbed humanoids, not to mention how difficult it would make tree-jumping.

Bashing Avatar for its impossible animals is like bashing Star Wars for placing an animal like a Bantha -- a large shaggy mammal that just stepped out of an ice age -- onto a planet as hot and dry as Tatooine, which certainly lacks the foliage necessary to raise an herbivore to the size of an elephant. Oh, but Star Wars is beloved and nostalgic, so it's safe.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

Then I shouldn't have watched that video review of Star Trek: First Contact on YouTube. I used to love that movie. Now I see it for the piece of illogical garbage that it is.

Welcome to my world!

The Picard smashes glass case bit is good though.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

And lets not speak of some creatures having multiple pairs of eyes and/or nostrils in the chest-neck, features the na'vi do not posess either...

Necessary concessions for beings that we are supposed to empathize with. If they deviate too much from humans then it gets really hard.

Yep, same reason why the aliens in District 9 were basically funky looking humans.

[Wojo 2,453]

Yep, same reason why the aliens in District 9 were basically funky looking humans.

And why all major aliens in Star Trek are just aliens with changed heads. No, not because of that one TNG episode. Yes, because of cost, but also because it lets the storytellers create more empathetic characters. If an alien looks radically non-human, it's hard to feel any emotion for it. Even E.T. is recognizably human.

Maybe that lends itself to a stereotype of "non-human looking aliens are evil." The black blob that killed Tasha. Species 8472. The bug Xindi in Enterprise. But even people-shaped aliens can be bad guys, like Q, the Borg, and the Maquis.

This brings up an interesting point about the uncanny valley: the droids in Star Wars. C3PO is human shaped, walks like one, and talks like one. (I know, man in a suit). R2D2 is a small domed cylinder on wheels that beeps and whistles. The fact that Kenny Baker sits inside is irrelevant to the story.

Now, imagine a scene where Threepio blows up. Imagine a different scene were Artoo blows up. Which scene makes the audience cheer, and which makes the audience cry? I wonder why that is.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Prejudice is very human. In sci-fi/fantasy, strange-looking aliens are generally looked upon with disgust or seen as lower beings by the audience because they don't appear as humans. They could be the nicest, most noble beings in the universe but it doesn't matter. Take Chewbacca, for instance. Why do we laugh at the walking carpet line? It's a slur against his whole damn species. Why is it okay for Princess Leia to get away with saying that? Oh yeah, weird-looking shaggy alien thing...

It says a hell of lot about us as a culture, hell as a race.

[Wojo 2,453]

Everyone's a little bit racist...

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

This brings up an interesting point about the uncanny valley: the droids in Star Wars. C3PO is human shaped, walks like one, and talks like one. (I know, man in a suit). R2D2 is a small domed cylinder on wheels that beeps and whistles. The fact that Kenny Baker sits inside is irrelevant to the story.

R2D2 would get more sadness than threepio.

There is one condition that overrules all other psychological boundaries for sympathy in humans and many other animals:

The first lecture of one of my character animation courses in college, we all walk in and there's a giant picture of a baby on the board.

The professor walks in and says something along the lines of "Some of you in this class have great talent, some good, some decent, and some of you just managed to slip by when admissions was having a very good day."

"But that doesn't matter! I'm going to teach you how to make your audience feel empathy and sympathy towards anything even the pile of crap those of you with no talent will create, and in the case of the professional world, the other's crap you will have to animate."

And yup, R2D2 was part of that beginning lecture about empathy and sympathy. And why do we care more about R2? Because he's proportioned, and as clumsy in appearance, and as cooey sounding as this little critter:

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Yes, I'm afraid I am not familiar with the ancestor of fish, to know what kind of invertebrate only had four limbs before growing that backbone and becoming a fish. I didn't realize that their other fins were not truly limbs. I just know that from watching them in my tank and catching them in lakes that they have independent control over these fins, so they function like limbs in the water for navigation.

Yes, I'm afraid I am not familiar with the ancestor of fish, to know what kind of invertebrate only had four limbs before growing that backbone and becoming a fish. I didn't realize that their other fins were not truly limbs. I just know that from watching them in my tank and catching them in lakes that they have independent control over these fins, so they function like limbs in the water for navigation.

I hope you dint take it as i was nitpicking you, as i said i practically learnt it yesterday.

Bashing Avatar for its impossible animals is like bashing Star Wars for placing an animal like a Bantha -- a large shaggy mammal that just stepped out of an ice age -- onto a planet as hot and dry as Tatooine, which certainly lacks the foliage necessary to raise an herbivore to the size of an elephant. Oh, but Star Wars is beloved and nostalgic, so it's safe.

it's true. And the dewbacks and rontos are herbivores too. at least they are not shaggy..

Damn you Lucas!

Prejudice is very human. In sci-fi/fantasy, strange-looking aliens are generally looked upon with disgust or seen as lower beings by the audience because they don't appear as humans. They could be the nicest, most noble beings in the universe but it doesn't matter. Take Chewbacca, for instance. Why do we laugh at the walking carpet line? It's a slur against his whole damn species. Why is it okay for Princess Leia to get away with saying that? Oh yeah, weird-looking shaggy alien thing...

It says a hell of lot about us as a culture, hell as a race.

Good point. Leia is really a bitch, how can a senator say that. And the wookies are a well regarded species...

I suppose that as with many other things in Star Wars that were changed in que sequels, the original idea could be that Leia did not know what a wookie was.

[Taikomochi 1,136]

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Avatar-as-Front-Runner-for-Best-Picture-at-the-Oscars-130493.shtml

Cool, but I found this quote worrisome: "Long applause for everything, except [James] Horner score, but who knows?" What does that mean exactly? Are they saying they didn't like it or what? I'm not sure as it's a poorly written sentence.

[Henry B 50]

I suppose that as with many other things in Star Wars that were changed in que sequels, the original idea could be that Leia did not know what a wookie was.

Heh, it's funny, because I just finished The Force Unleashed, and there's a sequence in which Leia begs you to free the Wookiees from Imperial slavers on Kashyyyk.

[Wojo 2,453]

Blume hit it on the head. Threepio gets blown apart in Empire, but it's funny. Artoo looks like a baby and acts all cute, and gets our affection.

Senator Leia in Star Wars knew perfectly well what a Wookiee was. How could an Imperial senator not recognize one of the many slave races of the Empire? I think she was taking out her frustration towards Han's roguish behavior by insulting his best friend as an extension of Han.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Blume hit it on the head. Threepio gets blown apart in Empire, but it's funny. Artoo looks like a baby and acts all cute, and gets our affection.

Senator Leia in Star Wars knew perfectly well what a Wookiee was. How could an Imperial senator not recognize one of the many slave races of the Empire? I think she was taking out her frustration towards Han's roguish behavior by insulting his best friend as an extension of Han.

i did not knew the wookies were slaves (or that the empire had slaves) until i got into expanded universe...

[Wojo 2,453]

I don't know when that information first made its appearance in a book, that Han had saved Chewie from certain death from Trandoshan slavers and the Empire, which ended Han's Imperial career.

You'd think that the Empire would have kept his photo on file, having been one of their soldiers, and been captured long ago. People in science fiction are stupid.

This is like that time in Avatar when they...um...yea...

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

I don't know when that information first made its appearance in a book, that Han had saved Chewie from certain death from Trandoshan slavers and the Empire, which ended Han's Imperial career.

that would be 'the paradise snare' i suppose.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Well I saw the original topic of discussion and I really enjoyed it. The 3D was amazing. Really engrossing, little use of the old-style gimicks. Instead of simply having crap pop out at you, it actually added another dimension. Felt somewhat like you were a part of that world. Even in 3D films like Terminator 2: 3D at Universal Studios, the 3D hasn't been very convincing. It just feels like watching a regular movie, then occasionally something will "come out" of the screen.

Overall it was the best movie I can remember seeing in a long time. It's not the kind of popcorn distraction I'll sort of enjoy on first viewing before realizing it's basically garbage (i.e. Star Trek). Thank GOD Cameron is still a great filmmaker. There were some pacing issues late in the movie, the villainous general guy was a bit too over-the-top (would have liked some development for some kind of arc--he was simply a bad guy). The sound design was a major issue for me as well because I noticed how much was re-used from Jurassic Park. Even the ape sounds from the 1976 King Kong remake made an appearance. Those had already been ripped off. WTF?? Neytiri's flying creature had the god damn head of a velociraptor. It just had an added chin piece, different textures and the weird expanding jaw. Seriously? But these are petty complaints. You must see this in 3D on the IMAX if possible. It's amazing.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

But these are petty complaints.

if i had made them... there would be one more page in this thread

[Melange 446]

The Picard smashes glass case bit is good though.

Rather like the

scene, I assume?

[JoeinAR 1,949]

It only took 5 days to break 100 million, and over 50% of its take was at 3D theatres

Overall it was the best movie I can remember seeing in a long time. It's not the kind of popcorn distraction I'll sort of enjoy on first viewing before realizing it's basically garbage (i.e. Star Trek).

thats the way Dave and I feel about Star Trek, we really enjoyed it, but now it's just so hard to with all the huge gaps, and the completely stupid storyline. We realize that it's a magic trick, you're taken in by the flair, but you then discover it's a cheat.

I'm hoping Avatar is given a Special Academy Award for Acheivements in Visual effects and that it's not a category this year. It would be a insult for any other film to even be nominated against it.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Avatar is on track for a ~$68M or thereabouts second weekend.

An 11% drop!

Unheard of in this day and age. Let's hope it can pull it off.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Alvin And The Chipmunks have already started to steal revenue from it, and on Christmas with like 8 new movies it's gonna make even less. But yes, it did extremely well, making $16 million on both Monday and Tuesday. I feel like Sherlock Holmes will take the #1 spot this weekend.

[A24 4,331]

Where is the sleeping smiley?

[Charlie Brigden 7]

Save for Downey, SHERLOCK HOLMES looks awful. Hmm, that sentence seems to work for a lot of his films.

[Quintus 5,399]

Total Film Magazine's review is absolutely spot-on. I agree with every word.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Which part of the film is "Into the Na'vi World" from?

[Genius_Gone_Insane 5]

my goodness, some of these posts are causing me to faceplant into my palms. i don't understand how you could see a landmark film like avatar and then argue that the horses should have 4 legs. I simply do not get it. I hope for Christmas some of you folks get the chance to practice procreating to take your mind off these silly conundrums.

[Quintus 5,399]

Yeah, it's the nerdy side of this board which I tend to give a very wide birth. Some folks aren't content until they've squeezed every last ounce of wonder out of any remotely magical. Dull, dull people.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Alvin And The Chipmunks have already started to steal revenue from it, and on Christmas with like 8 new movies it's gonna make even less. But yes, it did extremely well, making $16 million on both Monday and Tuesday. I feel like Sherlock Holmes will take the #1 spot this weekend.

and you were stupid enough to smell a bomb.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Sherlock Holmes will not be #1 for any weekend of its run. And Alvin certainly won't be for its first weekend, but the last one had terrifyingly good legs for such a crap film.

[Quintus 5,399]

But how many legs exactly? Six? How many chipmunks are there again? I'm thinking three, so that would mean six legs, but I could be wrong. Anyone care to elaborate?

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

[Quintus 5,399]

Those people from the Isle of Man sure are funny lookin'.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Don't they have three legs?

Early numbers indicate Avatar holds flat at $16m....despite the $19m opening Wednesday for Alvin and the Chipmunks.

Great for Alvin. Excellent for Avatar. Avatar is still on track for #1 for the weekend. (family movies will crash and burn today and Friday).

[Quintus 5,399]

Word of mouth will see Avatar well into the new year, I expect it to stay near the top for a considerable amount of time yet.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Joke about the legs all you want, but quoting Stefan the great:

you are just acting as APOLOGIST PIGS!

[Melange 446]

Noticed this little nugget on the Wikipedia page for Michael Biehn.

"Biehn was considered for a role in James Cameron's new sci-fi epic movie Avatar (2009), but Cameron felt his appearance in the film coupled with that of Sigourney Weaver's would remind people too much of Aliens and not of Avatar as an original film of its own".[7] (source link doesn't work, so I don't know if it's true or not?)

and this.....

In every James Cameron movie Michael appears in, his character is bitten on the hand by another character. This does not include Terminator 2

LOL, sounds true. I do have faint memorys of people biting his hand in The Abyss, Aliens & Terminator.

[Neimoidian 14]

I am going to watch it tomorrow. I will be watching 2D version because I have 10 spare regular (only for 2D movies) tickets (which I have recently got at discount price), any of them allow me to see 3D and I really don't to spend any more money on movies so early after Christmas. If I like the movie, I reconsider watching it again, this time in 3D.

[crocodile 8,012]

I am going to watch it tomorrow.

So am I. But in 3D.

Karol - who is rather indifferent about this movie

[Trent B 337]

I just got back from seeing the movie in 3-D and wow I was floored by the film. I couldn't help but get teary eyed in a few scenes. I was paying attention to the score..a lot of parts definitely reminded me of Horner's older scores. In fact I heard the danger motif and parts of Willow a few times. I gotta say too the computer animation for the film was really awesome. I'm definitely buying it on Blu.

Edit: One thing I forgot to comment on too...the plot line reminded me a lot about Killzone's. Those of you who play games and have played that one would probably agree with me.

[Morlock 11]

The plotline reminded me of many things (An Inconvenient Truth: A Man Called Horse Dances With Pocahontas).

I'm still amazed by how bored I am with the score. I loved it in the film, and even in the clips I've heard from the film the score really wroks for me. But alone, it really does little for me.

[crocodile 8,012]

I'm still amazed by how bored I am with the score. I loved it in the film, and even in the clips I've heard from the film the score really wroks for me. But alone, it really does little for me.

It is strange, for it is one of the few Horner CD's I can listen to from start to finish, where I don't feel its gargantuan running time. The opposite being Enemy at the Gates and Deep Impact.

The other thing is I am not bothered by the plagiarism issue at all. Honestly, I can only spot few blatant re-uses of some material, but it's not something like when you hear "Braveheart" at the beginning of the "Enemy of the Gates". When I say "plagiarism" I mean it very literally. I don't count the overall similarites with other scores (like the shakuhachi, solo vocals, orchestration, or even danger motif) for it is a habit of pretty much every composer to re-use his elements all over again in dozens of scores. I put these things under the other label called "personal style". I didn't expect to get the best score ever written and the hype obviously didn't affect me, so, I guess, I'm more relaxed when it comes to this particular matter.

Karol - who thinks people are way over-sensitive when it comes to Horner

[Morlock 11]

I think the score has a unique enough sound overall (though I don't think it's as ambitious as it's been touted), whereas individual themes sound close to earlier stuff, as usual ('Jake's First Flight' is case in point- I like the overall sound of the cue, but that theme being Glory with an uninteresting twist is annoying). There's something a bit vanilla about the score. For me, it lacks the spark I get with Legend of Zorro or The Perfect Storm (the last two Horner scores I really love).

[crocodile 8,012]

The Legend of Zorro - yes. But The Perfect Storm? I didn't hate it, but wasn't impressed by it either. Maybe because of somewhat tired performance from the orchestra. I really liked All the Kings Men. I heard it doesn't do much good for the film, but the score on album was fine and underrated.

Karol

[Morlock 11]

As often happens, I thought it was underrated...until I found out that the main theme was a classic Hornering. Horner is so frustrating precisely because he constantly shoots himself in the foot...it's almost as if he throws in an earlier work just to mess with us. He really doesn't need to, and writing a relatively new theme can't be as hard as all that, now can it? The Perfect Storm is a score that did nothing for me for a while, but it clicked in once, and now I find it absolutely thrilling (My current favorite cue is 'Small Victories').