Avatar (2009)

[Morlock 11]

I think whether it's real or CG is irrelevant. Some moments in the original films were pretty obviously faked (e.g. Mola Ram's composited death shot), but it was fine because the audience had already accepted that the film wasn't real. Because it's, you know, a film.

I think it's far from being so simple. Obviously, we each have our own line. But, for me, CGI can very easily cross into the synthetic weightless territory. There's real force in knowing that something was in some way practical. Even if it's a matte shot or a digitally printed composite, there's a real weight I often get from kowing that there is something actually there, not something created in a computor and super-imposed on it. Even in the best CGI work, there is almost always a disconnect between the CGI and the filmed material. Weight and depth are often missing.

So if one impossible event is depicted, why not another impossible event? What's the difference between Indy impossibly surviving a 500 foot fall in a raft* and Indy impossibly surviving a 5000 foot, 5000 degree celsius (I'm estimating) flight in a refrigerator? I contend that there's no difference. How can two things be "unequally impossible"?

Easily. We have some sense of what a raft falling into water looks and feels like in the real world. It is an entirely relatable and plausible image, stretched out to the nth degree. It's basis is solid. A man inside a flying refrigerator is something far harder to grasp, and has no basis in something relatable to most people. Sure, the leap is not a huge one to make. But there is a big difference between the two. Images have weight, and the farther they are from an audience's experience, the more weight they need to have. I think that the problem with the refrigerator scene is not in its conception (it's possible to sell anything), but in the fact that it feels like such a thrown out detail, like the idea that this is implausible wasn't given any thought at all. Suspension of disbelief can go a long way, but I got a sense of a filmmaker who didn't seem to remember the difference in the weight of things. It was an image that did not compute beyond 'I've just had this crazy idea', and the fact that it all CGI, a naturally weightless form, distanced it even more so. The relatability of the raft sold the implausability of the idea, and the fact that we actually saw real physical objects with weight arrange themselves to appear that like it was happening further bridged the gap. The flying fridge had neither relatability nor plausibility. I'm not sure what I think about the whole thing- whether or not I like the concept. Either way, the execution did nothing to sell me on it in the moment. It has no weight as an image, only as a concept.

Physical naturally has weight. CGI naturally does not. You can coast through a physical effect and it could still have an effect of real weight. You have to work at it to achieve it with CGI. That is one of the reason I still marvel at Davey Jones- I didn't feel like I had to work at all to suspend disbelief. No physical gap to be bridged, only a conceptual one. Even in Avatar, I had to forgive a whole lot of weightless character movement and mouth-movement not entirely connected with the voices. I could, but there was a part of my brain that was often aware of 'this is not real'. The best effects don't require that. The more conciously aware I am of this being a film as I'm watching it, the less impactful it will be.

End rant. (sorry, I thought it was going to be more cohesive, but this is how it came out)

[Quintus 5,399]

Thanks Morley, you just demonstrated, albeit beautifully, the reason why I don't bother with hefty big essay explanations on the interweb.

[Morlock 11]

Yes, brevity is rarely my thing. But pinning a thought down can be gratifying even if no one else can (or has the patience to) follow my logic.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

The fundamental difference between the raft parachute jump and the nuked fridge is context. The audience believed Indy and his sidekicks could survive their fall, simply because the film makers were ever so careful enough to prepare the audience for it in previous scenes (and in previous movies). I personally like the nuke scene in Indy IV, but I appreciate that millions hate it and I expect that is partly down to the fact that at that point in the movie, people were already having their doubts.

Indiana Jones surviving an atomic blast in a refrigerator that is thrust through the air and crash-lands miles away is much, MUCH more ridiculous than the raft scene in TOD. There's a certain believability to the raft bit and it certainly works in the universe of Indy, although many denounce it and try to claim it shares any similarity with the fridge scene in some half-assed defense of KOTCS's astounding short-comings. There's no similarity. The fridge scene is a God damn parody. He FLIES through the air in a FRIDGE, through a NUCLEAR EXPLOSION, crashes into the ground, rolls around and then POPS OUT to face a GOPHER. I know what type of films the Indys are, a part of me even kinda dig the idea of Indy surviving the blast in a refrigerator. It just doesn't work as-is. In my worst nightmares I see a filthy 60-something Harrison Ford dressed as Indiana Jones barging through a stereotypical 1950's rural America neighborhood in ghastly colors and over-exposed photography while Howdy Doody plays on TV. Somewhere, Grandpa IS laughing at this dreck.

You know what I've concluded is a major problem with Indy 4? It doesn't take place in the 1930's.

But man that Avatar is kicking ass, eh?

[Wojo 2,453]

The more I think about Nuke the Fridge is that my issue is not with its landing. Sure, it lands and rolls and rolls and bounces and bounces and then finally pops open to reveal our hero inside.

No, it's the sheer chance by which it is tossed at all. We see the shock wave of the nuke decimate the town. Everything gets leveled outward and incinerated at the same rate by the shockwave radiating from ground zero.

Except for this one random refrigerator. It gets launched like a cannonball upward and out of the house -- without being caught on anything and shot through the roof -- with an acceleration far greater than anything else in the neighborhood. This is so that Indiana Jones can land, survive, and walk back towards ground zero, to be able to view the mushroom cloud from a safe distance.

What about the moment the shock wave hits the metal refrigerator? That is a heavy appliance, so a significant amount of energy must be transmitted into it to get it into a parabolic arc. It's launched, it lands, but Indiana Jones should be one crispy man when his remains roll out a mile or so away.

The odds of this happening are very slim. I assume that with the level of detail we see the Federal Government spending on the Test Nuke Neighborhood, each house has a refrigerator, identical to the one protecting our hero. Why did they stay behind when only a single one -- coincidentally, containing our hero -- gets launched to safety?

Wouldn't Indiana Jones be heavier than any amount of shelves and food contained within? I think if any should have been launched, it would have been the ones not containing a 160 pound man, but 20 pounds of food.

No. The refrigerator gets launched because the plot directs Indiana Jones into a nuclear test zone with 30 seconds to find a way to survive. His fridge saves him because the plot compels the character to survive this cartoon situation.

It's not logic, it's lucky coincidence, which is used many times during the saga. This is just the largest and most ridiculous scale of any of them, so we naturally chastise it the worst.

[Quintus 5,399]

You guys misunderstand me, the exact details of nuke fridge matter very little to me personally. I don't care about the physics and reality of the sequence, I'm not a nerd. I appreciate and enjoy quality, something KotCS sadly has very little of.

[Wojo 2,453]

At least when Shooter McGavin became a midget, we knew Happy Gilmore was dreaming.

We wanted so much of KOTCS to be a dream, but alas, it wasn't.

[Ollie 1,059]

I think Ford is just grumpy about what he sees as the negative side-effect Star Wars had on his career.

Speaking of which...

Heh, that is rather amusing but the TOD picture they chose fits the article perfectly. All that's missing are the comic styled dialogue balloons with Ford exclaiming he's ruining her career, although Kate's face says it all.

[Uni 306]

Why do people keep bringing that Avatar movie up in this thread? It's all about KotCS here. . . .

I don't know why I feel the need to add to this running commentary; I guess it's the one physics hiccup I had with the scene that no one's mentioned yet (even Wojo, who covered nearly all the bases). Even if I can swallow the notion that this one, single object was thrown clear of the blast area--again, why just this one--and even if I can swallow the notion that someone could survive such an impact . . . he then gets out of the lead-lined torpedo, walks in the direction of the blast, and watches the mushroom cloud rise. Now, even if he was thrown a good 5-10 miles out of the range of the immediate blast radius (and still lived through the landing? Doubt it), you cannot possibly tell me anyone could survive the radiation poisoning that would affect a much larger area. He had to have footed it back to civilization afterward, and I don't think he outwalked the radiation cloud spreading behind him. He would've been bald in hours, dead in days.

I'm with most everyone else on this one. I can overlook impossible deeds done valiantly--what else are our legends for, anyway?--but for the sake of all that is sacred, give it a point in the story, a lead that furthers the adventure, a necessary plot device, something that justifies its place in the story. All of the previously mentioned incredible events in Indy's past had the virtue of a legitimate spot in the storyline. The nuke bit had nothing to do with anything having to do with anything concerning any story anywhere having to do with anything connected with the Crystal Skull, his friends, his enemies, his family, his goals, any archaeological artifact, his fear of snakes, his hatred of Nazis . . . nothing. No setup, no payoff. No reason to exist, other than to allow the filmmakers to pump their fists in the air and say, "Yeah! We did it!"

Yup . . . they did. And nope, I can't let that one go. Sorry.

- Uni

[JoeinAR 1,949]

that movie Avatar will break the big 400 mark tomorrow or Saturday. On Saturday it will pass the great evil toy movie.

[Uni 306]

Writing credits

Peter Benchley (screenplay) and

Carl Gottlieb (screenplay)

Peter Benchley (novel)

This is an overstatement of Benchley's responsibilities in the making of the film. He wrote a "suggestive" sort of screenplay, based on his spectacularly awful book, which Carl Gottlieb took and, with the help of Spielberg and Dreyfuss (during a time they spent throwing around ideas in a hotel room), rewrote almost entirely from scratch. This is a good thing, since Benchley is about as good a writer as George Lucas is. Benchley didn't much care for most of the changes they made, though the audiences definitely did.

The behind-the-scenes reminiscing in the new Jaws DVD SE is good, but if you want the best story of the making of the film, Carl Gottlieb--who is, on the other hand, a brilliant writer--chronicled the epic story of the film's evolution from first spark of the idea to Spielberg's inability to sleep in the weeks following the grueling experience (he used a waterbed back then). It's all contained in a wonderful little paperback that has surely been out of print for years; if you're lucky, you might be able to track a copy down in a used bookstore somewhere in the world. . . .

- Uni

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Arent the rocket sled and nuke the fridge scenes, some kind of hommage to the Road runner cartoons?

Maybe its just spielberg having fun, not a raping childhood hidden agenda...

[Sandor 797]

Arent the rocket sled and nuke the fridge scenes, some kind of hommage to the Road runner cartoons?

???? And this would make it... OK???

So if Indy and Mutt in the middle of KOTCS all of a sudden would start singing some kind of musicalesque song called 'The Jones' Keep It Rollin'' supported a ballet group and tap-dancing shit we could say: "Isn't the musical song scene some kind of homage to the big musical spectacles of the 50's?"

Just because something might be homage doesn't mean it's not totally out of place within the Indiana Jones franchise.

Maybe Spielberg was having fun, but it's scenes like this that even eclipse the prequels in complete absurdity.

[King Mark 3,631]

you know I saw avatar last night..

*checks if he's in the right thread**

ok It was a great movie I'll see it again

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Arent the rocket sled and nuke the fridge scenes, some kind of hommage to the Road runner cartoons?

???? And this would make it... OK???

So if Indy and Mutt in the middle of KOTCS all of a sudden would start singing some kind of musicalesque song called 'The Jones' Keep It Rollin'' supported a ballet group and tap-dancing shit we could say: "Isn't the musical song scene some kind of homage to the big musical spectacles of the 50's?"

Did you miss temple of doom intro?

The hommage does not make it ok, it just makes it ok with Spielberg. He wastes his money in the fun he likes, he does not tell you in which kind of entertainment you have to waste your money. And definately he was not pointing anyone's temple with a gun to watch his movie.

my 2 joke cents

you know I saw avatar last night..

*checks if he's in the right thread**

ok It was a great movie I'll see it again

Who cares about the movie.

Is the score better than Williams'?

[publicist 4,643]

The hommage does not make it ok, it just makes it ok with Spielberg. He wastes his money in the fun he likes, he does not tell you in which kind of entertainment you have to waste your money. And definately he was not pointing anyone's temple with a gun to watch his movie.

But he didn't gave me my money back after i saw his film, either.

[King Mark 3,631]

the score to avatar has a lot of good unreleased music .I hope recording sessions leak

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

the score to avatar has a lot of good unreleased music .I hope recording sessions leak

You are a good person, dont do this!

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Yeah the score to Avatar is better than the score to Kingdom of the Crystal Skulls.

[Datameister 2,042]

Hahahahaha...you're funny, man.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Hahahahaha...you're funny, man.

I'm also correct. The KOTCS is nothing but at best a 2 and 1/2 star score(out of 4) from JW.

[Datameister 2,042]

Compared to other Williams scores, sure. Compared to a Horner score consisting mostly of music that's been redigested more times than a cow's cud...it's utter brilliance. Because as tasty as cud can be, I can only stomach swallowing it so many times.

[Incanus 5,714]

No no I am absolutely correct here. KotCS is a 5/5 star score. So stop talking nonsense.

[Quintus 5,399]

I personally would rather listen to Avatar's music, simply because I prefer the movie - that's the angle I tend to approach this stuff from. I think Williams' score is better than the movie it was written for, which makes it problematic for me, since I hate Indy IV.

Some might think Williams' KotCS is a 5/5 piece of music, but in absolutely no way is it a 5/5 film score.

[crocodile 8,000]

The only thing that could prevent it from being 5/5 for me is that there are reused bits from other scores. But that's about it. The score, especially in the expanded form is very good. But then again, why am I even saying this? If you don't like it, then it doesn't matter how good it is for me... It's music, you either feel it or you don't.

Karol - who enjoys Avatar score tremendously, moreso than any many other 5/5 JH's scores, for that matter

[Quintus 5,399]

Up to a point yes, but like Joey I strongly disagree with the practice of rating a score like KotCS the same amount of 'stars' as the likes of Raiders and Star Wars. I think it cheapens the real classics, fully deserving of their 5 stars.

[crocodile 8,000]

Up to a point yes, but like Joey I strongly disagree with the practice of rating a score like KotCS the same amount of 'stars' as the likes of Raiders and Star Wars. I think it cheapens the real classics, fully deserving of their 5 stars.

If you look at it from such prespective then I can agree. But all those classics come from the very different movie making era. This music wouldn't work in films these days. You can see how Indy scores changed over the years. It's quite fascinating to observe how JW does the same thing all over again with them, but very different at the same time.

Karol

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Up to a point yes, but like Joey I strongly disagree with the practice of rating a score like KotCS the same amount of 'stars' as the likes of Raiders and Star Wars. I think it cheapens the real classics, fully deserving of their 5 stars.

If you look at it from such prespective then I can agree. But all those classics come from the very different movie making era. This music wouldn't work in films these days. You can see how Indy scores changed over the years. It's quite fascinating to observe how JW does the same thing all over again with them, but very different at the same time.

Karol

Only because there is nothing in these films that would inspire such great music. Those movies are classic today, but a film like KOTCS will never be a classic because its not worthy now.

[John Crichton 4]

I'd give Indy 4's score a 3 or 3.5/5. It's an underwhelming whole, but still has some good parts and most of the new themes are actually really good.

[King Mark 3,631]

Hey wait ,I said I'd like a complete Avatar because I liked a lot of the cues in the film that didn't seem to be in the soundtrack. KotCS is still a better score

there's a difference between comparing Williams vs Williams and Williams vs Others

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Hey wait ,I said I'd like a complete Avatar because I liked a lot of the cues in the film that didn't seem to be in the soundtrack. KotCS is still a better score

there's a difference between comparing Williams vs Williams and Williams vs Others

I knew there was still good in you

[Quintus 5,399]

KM, which of the two scores would you say was the most effective, for the movie?

[Goldsmithfan 6]

Tron.

[Ollie 1,059]

To enjoy film music you have to seperate it from the film it was composed for and just forget about the movie.

[Incanus 5,714]

To enjoy film music you have to seperate it from the film it was composed for and just forget about the movie.

Now this is a discussion worthy of its own thread. I think we already had one some time ago.

[Ollie 1,059]

Yes I believe we did and apparently I'm in the minority who feels that one can listen to it away from the film and not re-live the movie.

[Romão 2,274]

Yes I believe we did and apparently I'm in the minority who feels that one can listen to it away from the film and not re-live the movie.

I agree 100% with you

[Charlie Brigden 7]

I agree as well, although I do think scores should generally be judged as successful with the film itself. But I have no issues with loving scores to movies I dislike.

[Quintus 5,399]

Yes I believe we did and apparently I'm in the minority who feels that one can listen to it away from the film and not re-live the movie.

I agree 100% with you

I can happily do both but it helps me a LOT if I like the movie in the first place. A score is more likely to grow on me if I enjoy watching the movie, but that's just me.

[Datameister 2,042]

I'm split on that issue. On the one hand, I honestly do not just listen to film scores so I can relive the scenes they accompany. But on the other hand, I realistically have to realize that I personally cannot 100% separate the score from the film unless I haven't seen the film yet. So I try a little to judge the music based purely on its own merits, but I don't stress about it if I find myself thinking about the film, as well.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

I think it's probably true in a lot of cases that I haven't actually seen the accompanying films to a lot of scores I own. Certainly some of the Goldsmiths, but even much of Williams, as well as a lot of 2009 films.

[King Mark 3,631]

KM, which of the two scores would you say was the most effective, for the movie?

Avatar,because Williams scores have been mixrd way to low in the past decade to be effective(except HPSS and Memoirs of a Geisha)

But that's not what I'm talking about. In terms of pure music KotCS is better and more important to have .I don't see myself trying to make complete edits of Ħorner scores but KotCS is still worthy of doing so

[Wojo 2,453]

That's only because the most worthy Horner scores to make complete edits of don't have video games from which to draw unreleased music. All the Star Wars and Indy games offer a little something to the pot of Williams unreleased music, but Star Trek games don't use film music, so all we have are the DVDs.

Because I would rank Horner movies like Star Trek III, The Land Before Time, and Willow as more worthy than KOTCS of making expanded sets. I'm also happy with two of those and feel comfortable the third is on the way, so I digress. I don't know if Avatar: The Videogame has unique music or movie music. If it's got movie music, that very well may be the ticket. Since nobody's lauded it as such, I therefore doubt it.

I think it's probably true in a lot of cases that I haven't actually seen the accompanying films to a lot of scores I own. Certainly some of the Goldsmiths, but even much of Williams, as well as a lot of 2009 films.

I think it would be an interesting rainy-day-when-I'm-bored study to go through my collection, and see which films I can silently watch in my head while I listen to the score, which ones I can line up with key scenes, and which ones I'm lost on, even before I think of the scores I have to films I've never seen.

Certainly the (classic) Star Wars, (good) Indiana Jones, and most Star Treks lend themselves well to playing silently in my head, either because I've watched them to death, or because the music was specifically written to aid you in that. A key moment of the movie gets a mickey mousing sort of theme that becomes synonymous with that moment.

On the other hand, I've listened to Cutthroat Island many times but only seen the movie once. The only moment that "stands out" is that little jig during The Battle. I don't need to watch the movie of a good score to enjoy it any more.

[Incanus 5,714]

I have understood that the Avatar Game has entirely original music by a composer Chance Thomas with no Horner music mixed in. You can listen to an interview on scoring the Avatar game on Tracksounds site:Tracksounds Soundcast

And as for enjoying film music outside film or apart from it, is a difficult question. Sometimes knowing the film complements the listening experience and in some cases I do not even care for the film and enjoy the music on its own. It really varies from case to case.

With Avatar I think the score works very well on its own and complemented the movie nicely.

[Ollie 1,059]

I would say I've probably seen about 70% of the movies I have soundtracks for. And when it comes to game soundtracks I doubt I've played any of the games that I have scores for.

I'm not saying that images from the film might pop up in my head while I'm listening, but for the most part I'm just listening to the music. I'm usually imagining the orchestra playing or I'm seeing images, shapes and textures.

In all honesty, if I based my collection exclusively on the films then I would probably only have around 50 scores.

[Datameister 2,042]

"Only" 50 scores.

[Quintus 5,399]

In all honesty, if I based my collection exclusively on the films then I would probably only have around 50 scores.

That is me.

Lee - gutted that after seeing Avatar again yesterday has realised that possibly the best cue from the movie is absent from the ost.

[Datameister 2,042]

Whatever it is, I'm sure it's already been released on some other Horner CD.

- Datameister, only half-joking

[Quintus 5,399]

It's the music which can be heard during the "Eywa has heard you" sequence, where all of Pandora's living things rise up and attack the humans.

Its a superb action cue.

[indy4 155]

Spoilers below: