Star Wars Suite - Best Recording?

[Greg1138 3]

For reasons that I won't go into here, I need to get hold of a recording of the "Original" Star Wars Suite - the one with "The Battle", "The Little People" etc etc...

Trouble is, I've never even looked at it before and have never considered buying a recording of it....though I see there are a couple out there...

So - do I go for the Mehta? Or the Hayman? Or is there another that fellow JWFanner's consider better?

Please discuss - would be grateful for opinions.....

Peace,

Greg

[Charlie Brigden 7]

Not a suite per se as it's made up of several tracks, but Charles Gerhardt's recording is incredible. It's possible it's the same thing, just split up, although I can't be certain. Has:

1. Main Theme

2. The Little People Work

3. Here They Come!

4. Princess Leia

5. The Final Battle

6. Throne Room and End Title

[Greg1138 3]

Thanks.....not sure they are the same thing as the Suite I'm after does not contain "Here They Come"...also "The Final Battle" on the Gerhardt CD may not be the same "The Battle" from the suite I need to get hold of....and that's actually the specific track that I'm after.....can anyone confirm?

[Charlie Brigden 7]

Thanks.....not sure they are the same thing as the Suite I'm after does not contain "Here They Come"...also "The Final Battle" on the Gerhardt CD may not be the same "The Battle" from the suite I need to get hold of....and that's actually the specific track that I'm after.....can anyone confirm?

Well that track takes parts from "The Death Star", "Ben Kenobi's Death" and "The Battle of Yavin". Specifically, the Rebel fanfare when the Falcon enters the death star, pretty much the whole of "Ben Kenobi's Death", and various parts of the final battle, ending with a mix of the end of "Here They Come" and "The Battle of Yavin".

Probably not the same, still great though.

[Diego 21]

I do not own the Gerhardt recording but I believe that while "The Battle" is almost the same, Gerhardt's is about 2 minutes longer. The Mehta is quite good and it also has the Cantina Band.

[Greg1138 3]

It does sound the same - certainly the chop-up of the pieces sounds seems to be accurate - thanks Charlie!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The Gerhardt recording is possible the finest recording of Star wars....EVER!

[Greg1138 3]

THIS is the one you're on about, right?

Greg

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yes!

It is...precious to me!

[Henry B 50]

I do not own the Gerhardt recording but I believe that while "The Battle" is almost the same, Gerhardt's is about 2 minutes longer. The Mehta is quite good and it also has the Cantina Band.

The Heyman is the only recording I know that has the orchestral version of "Cantina Band." It's a very cool listen. The Mehta includes the usual jazzy film version.

[Greg1138 3]

It is...precious to me!

It is...ordered.

If the Battle track is not quite what I need I can always go back to the Mehta - apparently the recording of The Planets on there is worth a listen....

[Diego 21]

I do not own the Gerhardt recording but I believe that while "The Battle" is almost the same, Gerhardt's is about 2 minutes longer. The Mehta is quite good and it also has the Cantina Band.

The Heyman is the only recording I know that has the orchestral version of "Cantina Band." It's a very cool listen. The Mehta includes the usual jazzy film version.

There's an orchestral version??

I can't even imagine it.

[Henry B 50]

Yes. I also heard it performed at a Boston Pops concert in 2005. Since it was on the Film Night at Tanglewood program I would think Williams personally orchestrated it.

[Marian Schedenig 8,177]

Thanks.....not sure they are the same thing as the Suite I'm after does not contain "Here They Come"...also "The Final Battle" on the Gerhardt CD may not be the same "The Battle" from the suite I need to get hold of....and that's actually the specific track that I'm after.....can anyone confirm?

To my knowledge it's the exact official suite plus Here They Come! which Williams added after an official request Gerhardt. The Gerhardt suite is absolutely outstanding and comes with a brilliant CE3K suite which alone would make the album a must have.

Never heard the Mehta so far. The only Heyman disc I've heard is laughably bad. Has Williams himself ever recorded the full suite?

[Diego 21]

I don't think he's ever recorded "The Battle", the rest is on the Skywalker Symphony CD.

[Quintus 5,399]

The Gerhardt recording is possible the finest recording of Star wars....EVER!

Nah, that would be Star Wars.

I love the crisp brass in the Gerhardt recording though.

Also, has anyone heard this:

[Marian Schedenig 8,177]

I don't think he's ever recorded "The Battle", the rest is on the Skywalker Symphony CD.

Which is very underrated. And he has recorded some parts on other albums as well. But yes, I was specifically talking about The Battle.

[KingPin 201]

Yes. I also heard it performed at a Boston Pops concert in 2005. Since it was on the Film Night at Tanglewood program I would think Williams personally orchestrated it.

The Boston Pops orchestral version was actually arranged by Sid Ramin and is a very entertaining arrangement. Williams himself had conducted this arrangement at a few concerts - probsbly one of the only times he's not conducted his own version of a piece. The 2005 concert I attended was conducted by frequent Pops guest conductor, Bruce Hangen, who performed This version as an encore. If I'm not mistaken, Ramin was a regular Boston Pops arranger. The orchestral version on the Richard Hayman recording was arranged by Hayman himself and, in my opinion, is crap compared to the Ramin arrangement. I don't believe the Ramin version has ever been recorded though.

[TownerFan 4,983]

The best recording of the Star Wars Symphonic Suite is definitely the Gerhardt one. Catch up the original RCA CD release if you're able, because it sounds a zillion times better than the later Dolby Surround-encoded release. The CE3K suite is a killer as well.

The Zubin Mehta/LA Phil recording is fine too, but imho Gerhardt nails it much better. He takes a bit of freedom in his own interpretation and conducting, giving to the music a refreshing and very welcome new spin.

[Marian Schedenig 8,177]

The best recording of the Star Wars Symphonic Suite is definitely the Gerhardt one. Catch up the original RCA CD release if you're able, because it sounds a zillion times better than the later Dolby Surround-encoded release. The CE3K suite is a killer as well.

At least they didn't shorten this one for the surround release. Seriously, they should put out a complete set of the Gerhardt recordings (preferrably remastered, but even without they sound great). There's more than just a few essential albums there.

Incidentally, the Star Wars disc is what started it all for me, 15 years ago - give or take a few days (or at the most, weeks), as I just realised.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

While I had the ESB LP as a kid, Gerhardt's (amazing) ROTJ was the first CD I bought and what brought me into this crazy hobby.

[TownerFan 4,983]

Yes, a boxset of all Gerhardt's film music recordings would be a great thing to do. Let's hope FSM or Intrada will be able to work on something like this.

Gerhardt is an absolute film music champion. It's also because of him and his spectacular recordings (produced and supervised by George Korngold) if orchestral film music found a new appreciation and a new audience in the early 70s, paving the road to Star Wars as well.

[Wojo 2,453]

I don't have a single Gerhardt anything.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

I wonder how hard a boxset would be to put together. At least the Classic Film Scores series was all done by one label (RCA Victor) so that shouldn't be too difficult to licence.

[John Crichton 4]

I don't have a single Gerhardt anything.

Me neither. I tend to stay away from re-recordings or compilations, I prefer original score recordings.

[Wojo 2,453]

Oh this wasn't by design. I just never spotted them on the shelf, and already having the 93 Anthology and the 97 SE's, I never saw fit to go buy more versions of what I've already got. I mean, I know where to get them, but I'm restraining myself. I do love re-recordings if they're done correctly and it's the only way to get the music (El Cid).

[Charlie Brigden 7]

I don't have a single Gerhardt anything.

Me neither. I tend to stay away from re-recordings or compilations, I prefer original score recordings.

I generally do the same, but there's so much love and respect for the scores inherent in the recordings that they are infectiously great.

[Diego 21]

Plus there's cool stuff to be found, like in Gerhardt's ROTJ, it has the original Ewok Celebration with no lyrics and to this day remains my favorite version of ROTJ's finale.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

And it's not just the SW stuff - his discs for Korngold, Rozsa, Herrmann, Tiomkin, Waxman, Steiner, Newman - they're fantastic.

[Marian Schedenig 8,177]

Me neither. I tend to stay away from re-recordings or compilations, I prefer original score recordings.

Have you *heard* the Gerhardts?

Plus there's cool stuff to be found, like in Gerhardt's ROTJ, it has the original Ewok Celebration with no lyrics and to this day remains my favorite version of ROTJ's finale.

Indeed. Also, Into the Trap kicks the OST's ass.

And it's not just the SW stuff - his discs for Korngold, Rozsa, Herrmann, Tiomkin, Waxman, Steiner, Newman - they're fantastic.

Never found the Rozsa, the second Korngold, only have the Herrmann as a faulty CDR... I really do need a box set release.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

Charlie and I were talking about this last Friday, the Gerhardt Bernard Herrmann album is an essential. The performances on the album are far superior to any of the original album recordings.

[Mattris 416]

I'd like to know what some you see in Gerhardt's Star Wars/Close Encounters album. The performances are second-rate, at best. The National Philharmonic's brass section is horrendous (especially the trumpets); their imprecise tonguing and expanding sound (meaning it takes far too long for the players' to reach the desired pitch and dynamic) ruin the enjoyment of the music for me. Gerhardt's 'The Little People Work' and 'Princess Leia' are passable, but superior recordings exist:

LA Phil/Mehta

Utah/Karajan

Skywalker/Williams

Cincinnati Pops/Kunzel

LSO/Williams

Prague Phil

Boston Pops/Williams

With these albums, a 'best of' Star Wars suite can be assembled. Though, a few more albums would be needed for best-of 'Empire' and 'Jedi' suites.

[TownerFan 4,983]

I do not agree. Maybe the NPO's playing isn't pitch-perfect in every single note, but they have lot of energy and personality, thanks to Gerhardt's inspired conducting.

That's not to say there aren't other very fine recordings of the Star Wars suite. The Utah Symphony/Kojan is very good indeed and I also have a very high consideration of Williams' re-recordings with the Boston Pops and the Skywalker Symphony. Oh, and I think the recording of the Main Title found on The Hollywood Sound album (the LSO conducted by JW) is probably the best ever (with the exception of the original SW and TESB film recordings, of course)

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Gerhardt's recordings are almost universally praised, so I think that means you are tone deaf!

[Marian Schedenig 8,177]

Gerhardt's recordings are almost universally praised, so I think that means you are tone deaf!

Well, Gerhardt's ESB tends to get the most praise here, and I consider that the only weak recording I've heard by him, both the interpretation and the LSO's performance (and the recording quality, too).

But his other two SW albums are top notch, and listening to it again just now, the Star Wars suite seems to me a perfect example of a film music suite recording. Gerhardt completely focuses on the music, ignores the film and at the same time (and this is important) stays completely faithful to the written score. The tempos are his own, and always slightly different than those on the OST, but they're spot on, and they allow the music to breathe in a way an OST recording probably never can. The NPO's performance might not be as exact as a top LSO recording, but I don't think it's meant to be - this performance is *alive*, with phrasings standing out everywhere that in other recordings often can't even be called unremarkable, but nonexistent. The dynamics remind me of how Karajan compared his orchestra's response to his conducting to a flock of birds. Star Wars was written as a fully romantic score, and in my opinion it has never sounded so much like one as when Gerhardt conducted it.

Now please imagine me writing this whole thing a second time about CE3K. Because that recording is just as great.

And it fascinates me that it could be 15 years ago to the minute that I heard this music, in fact this same CD, for the first time.

[Erik Woods 555]

I don't have a single Gerhardt anything.

That's sad! Why don't you give them all a test spin...

-Erik-

[Joe Brausam 214]

My only Gerhardt album is the ESB one that I picked up last summer because of all the praise it got. Really, I very much dislike the album. I accept imprecise performances live, it makes the experience, but I don't accept that on a studio recording. Worse for me though are the arrangements of the music - that's my main issue with the album.

[Mattris 416]

Gerhardt's recordings are almost universally praised, so I think that means you are tone deaf!

What a silly statement. As an experienced musician and critical listener of orchestral music, I say that Gerhardt's Star Wars is - without a doubt - one of the worst professionally-recorded. I'd like to know, specifically, what you like/prefer about Gerhardt's Star Wars compared to, say, the Utah or LA Phil. recordings.

I do not agree. Maybe the NPO's playing isn't pitch-perfect in every single note, but they have lot of energy and personality, thanks to Gerhardt's inspired conducting.

That's not to say there aren't other very fine recordings of the Star Wars suite. The Utah Symphony/Kojan is very good indeed and I also have a very high consideration of Williams' re-recordings with the Boston Pops and the Skywalker Symphony. Oh, and I think the recording of the Main Title found on The Hollywood Sound album (the LSO conducted by JW) is probably the best evGerhardt'ser (with the exception of the original SW and TESB film recordings, of course)

Don't get me wrong - I appreciate Mr. Gerhardt's efforts as a conductor and supporter of film music. His albums in the 'Classic Film Scores' series deserve praise, indeed. But as for his Star Wars/Close Encounters, the brass section musicianship is bloody awful throughout. Can't you hear it? I can provide the track times of the worst errors, but I'd prefer not to have to listen to it again. You can say the NPO has 'energy and personality', but - unlike most other orchestra's recordings - I can clearly hear that they are struggling to perform the music. Unfortunately, Gerhardt's 'inspired' conducting can't make the orchestra perform better. No conductor could.

My only Gerhardt album is the ESB one that I picked up last summer because of all the praise it got. Really, I very much dislike the album. I accept imprecise performances live, it makes the experience, but I don't accept that on a studio recording.

Agreed. Gerhardt's Empire Strikes Back is overall better mixed and performed that his Star Wars - except for the trumpets, which are worse still... and ruin the most of the tracks they play in.

The Star Wars scores are written for competent brass players. I have no sympathy for 'professional' recordings that contain blatant performances errors.

[mahler3 478]

The Star Wars scores are written for competent brass players. I have no sympathy for 'professional' recordings that contain blatant performances errors.

Good god man, ensure you have the correct facts first as clearly your reasoning is highly flawed.

To say that the album in question is poorly recorded is utter madness, KE Wilkinson was one of the best engineers and Gerhardt / Korngold were very thorough with their interpretations... always.

The National Phil was primarily comprised of some of the best players in London (my father included) and many of the players were actually drafted in from other orchestras including the LSO, Philharmonia, BBC & LPO etc. In some ways, it was a session orchestra formed by Sid Sax.

So, to start slagging off the universally praised London brass players is frankly insulting and incorrect.

[Mattris 416]

From the facts you've given, the National Phil and Co. should have produced worthy Star Wars/Close Encounters recording. Problem is, they didn't actually do so. And from what I understand, the Dolby-encoded BMG Classics CD only hinders the sound quality, but I'm focusing solely on the musicians' performances.

I'm not slagging off the universally praised London brass players. The LSO, Philharmonia, and BBC orchestra's have/had superb brass sections, but a group assembled from select players did not produce an equally fine group... far from it. The brass playing in this album (especially the trumpets) is unrefined and messy, to say the least. These are not insults; any knowledgeable musician will agree. Have your nostalgia take a back seat and open-up you ears. The Utah Symp., LA Phil., and Skywalker Symphony produced far better Star Wars recordings.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Mattmane must have lost his mind!

[Wojo 2,453]

This is like the nerd fight in South Park, over the correct number of episodes in TOS.

[Marian Schedenig 8,177]

My only Gerhardt album is the ESB one that I picked up last summer because of all the praise it got. Really, I very much dislike the album. I accept imprecise performances live, it makes the experience, but I don't accept that on a studio recording.

Don't let that stop you. As I said, I consider this recording far overrated and not at all on the same level as the others.

Worse for me though are the arrangements of the music - that's my main issue with the album.

What's your problem with the arrangements?

What a silly statement. As an experienced musician and critical listener of orchestral music, I say that Gerhardt's Star Wars is - without a doubt - one of the worst professionally-recorded.

I seriously don't know how you can think that.

But as for his Star Wars/Close Encounters, the brass section musicianship is bloody awful throughout. Can't you hear it? I can provide the track times of the worst errors, but I'd prefer not to have to listen to it again.

And that with the brass sound on the OST. I like to believe that it's a problem with the recording, because it's the LSO and because they get much praise for this specific recording as well, but TIE Fighter Attack has some of the most ugly sounding horns I've heard.

As a frequent concert goer, I can say I'm happy whenever I hear a major orchestra (Vienna Philharmonic, Berlin Philharmonic, Munich Philharmonic,...) perform like the NPO here. Struggling? Listen to a LSO live performance of Goldsmith's Star Trek theme if you want to hear struggling horns.

[Mattris 416]

What a silly statement. As an experienced musician and critical listener of orchestral music, I say that Gerhardt's Star Wars is - without a doubt - one of the worst professionally-recorded.

I seriously don't know how you can think that.

Because most other recordings are far better. It's not complicated.

But as for his Star Wars/Close Encounters, the brass section musicianship is bloody awful throughout. Can't you hear it? I can provide the track times of the worst errors, but I'd prefer not to have to listen to it again.

I said that - not Maurizio!

And that with the brass sound on the OST. I like to believe that it's a problem with the recording, because it's the LSO and because they get much praise for this specific recording as well, but TIE Fighter Attack has some of the most ugly sounding horns I've heard.

Fair enough, but let's stick to the topic.

As a frequent concert goer, I can say I'm happy whenever I hear a major orchestra (Vienna Philharmonic, Berlin Philharmonic, Munich Philharmonic,...) perform like the NPO here.

I don't want to hear struggling anything during live/professional recordings. You should hope for/expect better.

So now, you and Maurizio have admitted the NPO's has performance errors. Now we're getting somewhere. Shall I list specifics points in the music so we can compare the various recordings?

Struggling? Listen to a LSO live performance of Goldsmith's Star Trek theme if you want to hear struggling horns.

The LSO horn section is one of the best in the world, so they must have had an 'off' day.

I've made my point. What's yours?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I've made my point. What's yours?

Apart from proven your almost criminal insanity, I doubt there is a point.

The NPO is formed from the best players of England, meaning members of the LSO, who played on the OST, most likely played on this recording, which was made in the same year.

[Ollie 1,059]

At one time I had the Gerdhart recordings but with the release of the RCA Special Editions I really had no more need for them.

I found them to all be well done and enjoyed listening to them.

I believe Lukas Kendall said a boxed set would be impossible/hard to do.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

No, he said that about a Star Trek box set!

[Ollie 1,059]

I believe he also said that during the whole Blue Box fiasco.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Fiasco?

[Joe Brausam 214]

My problem with the arrangements on the ESB album is that they feel unnatural.

The inclusion of a snippet of "Carbon Freeze" as an introduction to the "Imperial March" is really just unnesassary and feels awkward, no matter how many times I hear it.

In one of the Hoth tracks the trumpets repeat a fanfare ad nauseum it seems that was only stated once in the film recording - and once is all it needed to be heard. It felt redundant.

The piano part for the walker's introduction is simplified.

"The Asteroid Field" feels like an absolute mess to me, Williams' standard concert version of it and even the film recording seems to have more form and reason than the arrangement on this album. It builds up to so many climaxes then fails to climax, instead jumping to a less tensioned part of the piece. While this may have been an artistic choice I feel that it does not work for this set piece cue.

I believe Williams did these arrangements though, right? If so then my beef is with him more so that with Gerdhart. Then of course the performance issues, the brass just cannot seem to keep up with the music. They do try, and in person I'd accept it because the errors would give the performance character, but I don't want to hear the same mistakes over and over on a studio recording. Recordings should present the cleanest possible rendition of a work, at least in my eyes.

That all being said, I don't want to base my opinion on Gerdhart recordings solely on this one. I do want to pick up his other Star Wars albums and probably his Rozsa album as well at some point.