Star Wars Suite - Best Recording?

[Trent B 337]

I think a Star Wars box set would be hard for the labels to do considering Sony owns all the rights for the entire Star Wars saga scores. All though Intrada or one of the other labels should be given a chance to release the complete intended versions of the Prequel scores and proper remastered Original Trilogy set.

[Greg1138 3]

Oh my - seems I opened a small can of worms.....not that I give a feck but still.....

Not sure what in this thread is now genuine opinion and what is plain old contrarianism - I look forward to receiving the CD. I have no problem with any of the "arrangements" and have conducted and played them many, many pleasurable times. Apart, that is, from Here They Come which I know well from the Skywalker Symphony CD, but have never played nor conducted. Sadly.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Soon you must choose which side of the fence you will stand!

[Henry B 50]

I think a Star Wars box set would be hard for the labels to do considering Sony owns all the rights for the entire Star Wars saga scores. All though Intrada or one of the other labels should be given a chance to release the complete intended versions of the Prequel scores and proper remastered Original Trilogy set.

Sony only owns the rights to the film recordings. I think Bantha Music under BMI (Broadcast Music Incorporated) owns the rights to the sheet music.

[Mattris 416]

The NPO is formed from the best players of England...

You must be joking. London's 'best' players would never sound that bad. Do I have to specifically point out the dozens of performance errors?

...meaning members of the LSO, who played on the OST, most likely played on this recording, which was made in the same year.

Until you can provide a personnel listing of the two orchestras during their respective Star Wars sessions, I won't begin to entertain that statement. Could it be that much of the NPO personnel were the great London orchestra's secondary/back-up players? Now that would make sense.

[Marian Schedenig 8,178]

Because most other recordings are far better. It's not complicated.

Ah...

But as for his Star Wars/Close Encounters, the brass section musicianship is bloody awful throughout. Can't you hear it? I can provide the track times of the worst errors, but I'd prefer not to have to listen to it again.

I said that - not Maurizio!

True. Either the multiquote feature fucked up, or I did.

And that with the brass sound on the OST. I like to believe that it's a problem with the recording, because it's the LSO and because they get much praise for this specific recording as well, but TIE Fighter Attack has some of the most ugly sounding horns I've heard.

Fair enough, but let's stick to the topic.

I thougth I was. You complained about the brass section. Or are you saying that all other suite recordings are miles ahead of the Gerhardt recording, which is awful, but that the OST is even worse?

As a frequent concert goer, I can say I'm happy whenever I hear a major orchestra (Vienna Philharmonic, Berlin Philharmonic, Munich Philharmonic,...) perform like the NPO here.

I don't want to hear struggling anything during live/professional recordings. You should hope for/expect better.

So now, you and Maurizio have admitted the NPO's has performance errors. Now we're getting somewhere. Shall I list specifics points in the music so we can compare the various recordings?

I haven't "admitted" anything. The disc could be full of them and I wouldn't have anything to admit, because I didn't make them - but aside from a handful of moments where a single not was perhaps not played with 100% confidence I really hear no performance errors. If you want those, you can find a few on Total Recall and Rambo 2, also performed by the NPO by the way. But I task you to name three world class orchestras who would perform those scores *nearly* flawlessly (as these mostly are) after a typically brief film schedule rehearsal. (In fact, Recall started recording in Munich (?) before Goldsmith moved the whole package to London when the original orchestra wasn't up to the task).

Struggling? Listen to a LSO live performance of Goldsmith's Star Trek theme if you want to hear struggling horns.

The LSO horn section is one of the best in the world, so they must have had an 'off' day.

Must have had three 'off' days, you mean. And they weren't just bored either, they were as excited about Goldsmith and his music as I've ever seen any orchestra excited about anything.

The Vienna Philharmonic are also famous as one of the best orchestras in the world (many here claim it to be the undoubtedly single best, as others do with the LSO - I'd say both are among the elite), and they're entirely made up of members of the Vienna State Opera Orchestra. They're allowed to send substitutes to a certain percentage of their opera performances, so that might have something to do with the following. But if we're talking about flawed performances by world class orchestras, you just have to go to a Wagner performance there that's not got a first-rate cast and conductor. What the State Opera "Philharmonic" brass played during the first Rheingold finale I heard live makes Goldsmith's Hungary-recorded scores sound first-rate.

My problem with the arrangements on the ESB album is that they feel unnatural.

[...]

Fair enough. To be honest, I haven't played it often enough to remember the arrangements. Rest assured, the arrangements on Gerhardt's other albums are fine.

Not sure what in this thread is now genuine opinion and what is plain old contrarianism - I look forward to receiving the CD. I have no problem with any of the "arrangements" and have conducted and played them many, many pleasurable times. Apart, that is, from Here They Come which I know well from the Skywalker Symphony CD, but have never played nor conducted. Sadly.

I have complained about the brass performance in the OST version of Here They Come. Nevertheless it's an otherwise excellent performance, a notch above Gerhardt's for sheer energy (the OST is a bit faster). The Skywalker Symphony version is the only track on that album where I agree with the common criticism of too slow tempi. It's the one track on the disc which I consider "unworthy", and it pales in comparison to the OST and Gerhardt's.

Until you can provide a personnel listing of the two orchestras during their respective Star Wars sessions, I won't begin to entertain that statement. Could it be that much of the NPO personnel were the great London orchestra's secondary/back-up players? Now that would make sense.

It's common knowledge that the NPOs players were drafted from London's major orchestras. Did they always include each orchestra's first chair players? Perhaps not. Did the LSO soundtrack recordings always include all of that orchestra's players? I don't know - but I would be surprised.

PS: Why is there a limit on quote blocks on this board? I had to split my post in two and now it removed some of the quote tags...

[Mattris 416]

You complained about the brass section. Or are you saying that all other suite recordings are miles ahead of the Gerhardt recording, which is awful, but that the OST is even worse?

The LSO/OST horns were clearly instructed to play muted, resulting in a thinner sound... and at times had an affect on their sound quality. Overall, the OST is far better, but could we stick only to discussing the various Star Wars re-recordings? You have heard them all, right? Do you own the CDs?

I will say that the NPO's French horn section is the strongest in their brass. Generally though, the NPO brass' overall approach is poor. Tuning, tonguing, and note length/support problems are abundant on this album.

I haven't "admitted" anything. The disc could be full of them and I wouldn't have anything to admit, because I didn't make them - but aside from a handful of moments where a single not was perhaps not played with 100% confidence I really hear no performance errors.

I'll have to spot them for you, then. Track times for the specific errors to come soon...

I task you to name three world class orchestras who would perform those scores *nearly* flawlessly (as these mostly are) after a typically brief film schedule rehearsal.

Utah SO, LA Phil, Skywalker Symphony. Listen to the musicianship in any of these albums. While their recordings are uniquely different from each other, they are all a step above the Gerhardt/NPO's effort.

I said before that "the LSO horn section is one of the best in the world, so they must have had an 'off' day."

Must have had three 'off' days, you mean. And they weren't just bored either, they were as excited about Goldsmith and his music as I've ever seen any orchestra excited about anything.

Was it a live performance with Goldsmith conducting? They were probably overly excited, which led to nerves/pressure, which must have affected their embrasure. On the studio recording done around the same time, they must have calmed themselves because they sound utterly superb.

But if we're talking about flawed performances by world class orchestras...

It's all relative, isn't it? The LSO, Utah, LA Phil, Skywalker, Cincinnati, and Boston Pops' Star Wars efforts are all superior in musicianship to the NPO. This isn't a coincidence. It's because the NPO's musical effort - never mind he presence of Gerhardt, Korngold, Wilkinson, etc. - resulted in a poor final product.

I have complained about the brass performance in the OST version of Here They Come. Nevertheless it's an otherwise excellent performance, a notch above Gerhardt's for sheer energy (the OST is a bit faster). The Skywalker Symphony version is the only track on that album where I agree with the common criticism of too slow tempi. It's the one track on the disc which I consider "unworthy", and it pales in comparison to the OST and Gerhardt's.

Have a listen to the Utah version - the best by far.

Did the LSO soundtrack recordings always include all of that orchestra's players? I don't know - but I would be surprised.

Could you please clarify what you mean here? I'd be willing to bet that the best LSO players were used for the Star Wars film recordings.

[Marian Schedenig 8,178]

could we stick only to discussing the various Star Wars re-recordings? You have heard them all, right? Do you own the CDs?

No, I haven't heard them all. I have the Gerhardts, the underrated Skywalker Symphony album, a couple of Boston Pops tracks which have always left me rather cold (solid, but wholly unexciting performances, as far as I recall). I've always been wondering if I should get the Mehta recording, and I need to pick up the Kojian someday, since his Korngold at least is excellent.

Utah SO, LA Phil, Skywalker Symphony. Listen to the musicianship in any of these albums. While their recordings are uniquely different from each other, they are all a step above the Gerhardt/NPO's effort.

I haven't done a direct comparison between the NPO and the Skywalker recording in probably 10 years. As I said, I love the Skywalker album. But the Gerhardt recording seems to have much more character to me, and not just from a conducting point of view, but specfically also due to the phrasing by the various instrument groups. The Skywalker recording is more clinical, "cleaner". I'll take character and phrasing over an overprecise (I'm exaggerating here) performance any day.

Was it a live performance with Goldsmith conducting? They were probably overly excited, which led to nerves/pressure, which must have affected their embrasure. On the studio recording done around the same time, they must have calmed themselves because they sound utterly superb.

Yes, it was live. I'm not sure how you know what time it was, but I don't doubt they're fine on album. Obviously, live is a much bigger strain on the nerves, and I also admit mixing up our two points of discussion a bit (or at least jumping from one to the other); this was mostly objecting to the (apparent) claim that the LSO's brass is (nearly) unfailable.

But thinking about it, I could also say that the Gerhardt recording "feels" like a live recording. It obviously wasn't one, but compared to the OST and Skywalker recordings, it has a kind of live atmosphere to it, as if the musicians were much more "in the moment" than in a "safe" studio. In general, both studio and live recordings have their advantages, but with a great live recording, I gladly forgive some performance flaws. Only marginally relevant for this recording, of course. I do know that the Gerhardt recording, unlike any of the Williams recordings, immediately puts the image of an orchestra in a concert hall in my mind.

It's all relative, isn't it? The LSO, Utah, LA Phil, Skywalker, Cincinnati, and Boston Pops' Star Wars efforts are all superior in musicianship to the NPO. This isn't a coincidence. It's because the NPO's musical effort - never mind he presence of Gerhardt, Korngold, Wilkinson, etc. - resulted in a poor final product.

I consider phrasing etc. an important part of musicianship. I couldn't argue with you about perfect orchestra techniques, because I simply know little about it. But I know that I never noticed any flaws which would detract me from the music - if I did, I could probably never attend a live concert anymore.

Have a listen to the Utah version - the best by far.

I intend to.

Did the LSO soundtrack recordings always include all of that orchestra's players? I don't know - but I would be surprised.

Could you please clarify what you mean here? I'd be willing to bet that the best LSO players were used for the Star Wars film recordings.

Perhaps I'm just too used to/annoyed with the practice of sending substitutes common to our opera houses here. I'm pretty sure if you got the Vienna Philharmonic to record a film score (I rather doubt you could convince them), they wouldn't necessarily send all of their top players. Most, perhaps, but some wouldn't care and bow out or send replacements. Given the LSO's workload (probably similar to the VPO's, which I believe is the main motivation for the substitution system - one player can't play an opera and a symphony hall concert at the same time), I would imagine that not every single performer (and I'm not talking about the 6th horn or other instruments which just don't feature in many works) is present at every single project.

[Trent B 337]

I have complained about the brass performance in the OST version of Here They Come. Nevertheless it's an otherwise excellent performance, a notch above Gerhardt's for sheer energy (the OST is a bit faster). The Skywalker Symphony version is the only track on that album where I agree with the common criticism of too slow tempi. It's the one track on the disc which I consider "unworthy", and it pales in comparison to the OST and Gerhardt's.

Have a listen to the Utah version - the best by far.

THAT I agree with. I had the Utah symphony version once (before I moved from Vegas), sadly though it was amongst the casualties of destroyed CD's. I need to buy it again as it was the only re-recording CD that I liked.

[Hlao-roo 389]

This topic has already been discussed here:

http://jwfan.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=2312

Thor

[Mattris 416]

Utah SO, LA Phil, Skywalker Symphony. Listen to the musicianship in any of these albums. While their recordings are uniquely different from each other, they are all a step above the Gerhardt/NPO's effort.

I've always been wondering if I should get the Mehta recording, and I need to pick up the Kojian someday

Yes. Get the Mehta/LA Phil and the Kojian/Utah albums. (I linked to their Amazon listing in my first post in this topic.) I'm eager to hear what you think of them.

...the Gerhardt recording seems to have much more character to me, and not just from a conducting point of view, but specfically also due to the phrasing by the various instrument groups. The Skywalker recording is more clinical, "cleaner". I'll take character and phrasing over an overprecise (I'm exaggerating here) performance any day.

I'd like to have a clean performance with organic phrasing. Though, that takes an excellent orchestra (and conductor) with sufficient rehearsal time together.

Was it a live performance with Goldsmith conducting? They were probably overly excited, which led to nerves/pressure, which must have affected their embrasure. On the studio recording done around the same time, they must have calmed themselves because they sound utterly superb.

Yes, it was live. I'm not sure how you know what time it was, but I don't doubt they're fine on album. Obviously, live is a much bigger strain on the nerves...

Sorry, I just assumed since Goldsmith recorded his music with the LSO in January of 2000. Was that about when you saw them?

But thinking about it, I could also say that the Gerhardt recording "feels" like a live recording. It obviously wasn't one, but compared to the OST and Skywalker recordings, it has a kind of live atmosphere to it, as if the musicians were much more "in the moment" than in a "safe" studio.

I sort of see what you're saying. But Gerhardt's albums are studio recordings, and I simply can't forgive the performance mistakes.

...the Gerhardt recording, unlike any of the Williams recordings, immediately puts the image of an orchestra in a concert hall in my mind.

Again, you must acquire the superb Mehta and Kojian Star Wars albums. While you're at it, you need to hear Williams' Star Wars Main Theme on The Hollywood Sound and Kunzel's Throne Room. Just listen to those sample tracks!

I consider phrasing etc. an important part of musicianship.

I agree, but I have some issues with Gerhardt's Star Wars interpretation. For example, the opening tempo to The Last Battle is much slower than in the OST (far too slow, in my opinion)... he then gradually speeds up to settle on another tempo. I doubt is says to do so in the score, so he's taking some liberties.

[Marian Schedenig 8,178]

By the way, I'm surprised I'm arguing so strongly about this. I think it's partly because I've so often had to make a point for the validity of "re"-recordings in the first place (and I don't consider the suites re-recordings). Partly it may be because the Gerhardt album was my introduction to this music. But I seriously find it outstanding and have no issues with it.

Yes. Get the Mehta/LA Phil and the Kojian/Utah albums. (I linked to their Amazon listing in my first post in this topic.) I'm eager to hear what you think of them.

It'll take a while; I haven't picked them up these past 15 years, so I'll probably not rush out and get them immediately. But I really should put them on my list.

I'd like to have a clean performance with organic phrasing. Though, that takes an excellent orchestra (and conductor) with sufficient rehearsal time together.

Yes. And I've heard orchestra flaws in so many otherwise excellent first-rate studio recordings - and again, I never noticed any real flaws on the Gerhardt recording. It's the whole package that counts, and if the overall impression is right, I don't mind some orchestral imperfections.

Yes, it was live. I'm not sure how you know what time it was, but I don't doubt they're fine on album. Obviously, live is a much bigger strain on the nerves...

Sorry, I just assumed since Goldsmith recorded his music with the LSO in January of 2000. Was that about when you saw them?

First time was 2001, though they were pretty much spot on at that concert (not entirely flawless - but neither was the RSO Vienna two years ago). They had more problems 2003. I actually don't have the 2000 LSO album yet; I've been meaning to pick it up someday even though I've read mostly negative things about it.

Again, you must acquire the superb Mehta and Kojian Star Wars albums. While you're at it, you need to hear Williams' Star Wars Main Theme on The Hollywood Sound and Kunzel's Throne Room. Just listen to those sample tracks!

For some reason (and it's not even just sound quality), I really dislike samples... I need The Hollywood Sound though - one of those albums I used to see in stores many years ago and never grabbed.

I agree, but I have some issues with Gerhardt's Star Wars interpretation. For example, the opening tempo to The Last Battle is much slower than in the OST (far too slow, in my opinion)... he then gradually speeds up to settle on another tempo. I doubt is says to do so in the score, so he's taking some liberties.

Some - but some are good in my book. Especially since the original score was so much bound to the images (I don't know how much Williams changed the tempo markings for the suite). I love tempo choices in Battle, they seem very natural to me for a concert work - even though nowadays I'm no longer used to the slow coda; it used to be the other way round when I first got the OST. I think I prefer the slow version from a purely musical point though.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

But thinking about it, I could also say that the Gerhardt recording "feels" like a live recording. It obviously wasn't one, but compared to the OST and Skywalker recordings, it has a kind of live atmosphere to it, as if the musicians were much more "in the moment" than in a "safe" studio.

I sort of see what you're saying. But Gerhardt's albums are studio recordings, and I simply can't forgive the performance mistakes.

Wait, are you...arguing with yourself?

[Romão 2,274]

I obviously don't have the performance and instrument knowledge that several of you have, but I must say I was simply blown away the first I heard each Gerhardt/Star Wars cd

[Mattris 416]

Wait, are you...arguing with yourself?

I responded in the green. Marian is having a little trouble with the quoting.

I obviously don't have the performance and instrument knowledge that several of you have, but I must say I was simply blown away the first I heard each Gerhardt/Star Wars cd

Indeed, the experience of hearing new recordings of music we enjoy is exciting. (Have you heard the other Star Wars recordings mentioned in this tread?) It's no secret that the overall sound clarity of Gerhardt's Empire and Jedi albums are superior to the CDs we have of the OSTs. I don't have the desire to buy the original release of Gerhardt's Star Wars/Close Encounters, although it's said to have better sound than the (more) common Dolby-encoded CD.

A few years back, Kunzel recently recorded a Great Film Fantasies album. Lacking the overall impact of earlier Kunzel efforts, it still showcases excellent musicianship and is worth a listen. (It's available in hybrid SA-CD for a dollar more.) Some of its Star Wars tracks are among the best of all re-recordings. It also has a listenable arrangement of 'Cantina Band' (without syths). Perhaps it's an arrangement by Williams himself. Anybody?

[Romão 2,274]

Wait, are you...arguing with yourself?

I responded in the green. Marian is having a little trouble with the quoting.

I obviously don't have the performance and instrument knowledge that several of you have, but I must say I was simply blown away the first I heard each Gerhardt/Star Wars cd

Indeed, the experience of hearing new recordings of music we enjoy is exciting. (Have you hear the other Star Wars recordings mentioned in this tread?) It's no secret that the overall sound clarity of Gerhardt's Empire and Jedi albums are superior to the CDs we have of the OSTs. I don't have the desire to buy the original release of Gerhardt's Star Wars/Close Encounters, although it's said to have better sound than the (more) common Dolby-encoded CD.

A few years back, Kunzel recently recorded a Great Film Fantasies album. Lacking the overall impact of earlier Kunzel efforts, it still showcases excellent musicianship and is worth a listen. (It's available in hybrid SA-CD for a dollar more.) Some of its Star Wars tracks are among the best of all re-recordings. It also has a listenable arrangement of 'Cantina Band' (without syths). Perhaps it's an arrangement by Williams himself. Anybody?

I am quite familiar with the other mentioned re-recordings and they are pretty great for the most part (and I agree The Hollywood sound has one of the best versions of the Main Title ever recorded). I won't dwell in performance issues, since I lack the knowledge and I never really gave them too much importance (the brass does sound a bit off on the ESB re-recording, which gives the music a very organic vibe). But one critique I cannot agree with is concerning the structure of the symphonic suite itself. Each piece is an individual entity while at the same time maintaning its purpose in the greater scope of the work. It is not a narrative suite. It is not suposed to take you through the events of the movie. IMHO, it is a fantastic condesation of so many incredible music ideas brought in TESB, giving each segment a chance to glow without being overpowered by renditions of the more iconic themes (the original Asteroid Field versus this concert version comes to mind, or the Battle on Ice). It does not replace the original soundtrack in anyway, but is a wonderful complement, allowing for a even greater apreciation of the score. And the sound, again to my untrained ears, is simply top notch.

The Star Wars/Close Encounters re-recording sounds simply great to my uneducated ears. And it contains what probably is the best Close Encounters recording ever, of any sort.

[Mattris 416]

The Star Wars/Close Encounters re-recording sounds simply great to my uneducated ears. And it contains what probably is the best Close Encounters recording ever, of any sort.

Best Close Encounters arrangement, yes. As for the recording, it has the same problems as Gerhardt's Star Wars... but that's for another thread.

[mahler3 478]

From the facts you've given, the National Phil and Co. should have produced worthy Star Wars/Close Encounters recording. Problem is, they didn't actually do so. And from what I understand, the Dolby-encoded BMG Classics CD only hinders the sound quality, but I'm focusing solely on the musicians' performances.

I'm not slagging off the universally praised London brass players. The LSO, Philharmonia, and BBC orchestra's have/had superb brass sections, but a group assembled from select players did not produce an equally fine group... far from it. The brass playing in this album (especially the trumpets) is unrefined and messy, to say the least. These are not insults; any knowledgeable musician will agree. Have your nostalgia take a back seat and open-up you ears. The Utah Symp., LA Phil., and Skywalker Symphony produced far better Star Wars recordings.

Nostalgia has nothing to do with it and I wasn't talking about the DS encoding, KE Wilkinson engineered the albums prior to those re-issues, but yes the performances is what we are talking about.

There's no need to badger Steef for proof of what players were part of the NPO as he's stating facts, it's wide knowledge and as my father was one of their many terrific players and played on the recording in question. I can easily give you a list of some of the key players.

If not for his poor health, i'd love to have him discuss your points on the forum here.

All players have off days, that's only natural but I really think you're reaching and being far too critical!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

There is no need to aergue with this abomination.

He should be ignored or silenced!

Why isn't this thread a poll btw?

[Greg1138 3]

It's not a poll becasue when I started it I didn't know about some of the recordings, and only wanted some advice as to which one to get.....but hey ho!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

You mean Josh500 did not start this thread?

[Greg1138 3]

Itr's mine......aaaalllllll miiiiiine.......

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Memories

Light the corners of my mind

Misty watercolor memories

Of the way we were

Scattered pictures

Of the smiles we left behind

Smiles we gave to one another

For the way we were

[Marian Schedenig 8,178]

Wait, are you...arguing with yourself?

Too many quote blocks to keep track of.

[Mattris 416]

There is no need to aergue with this abomination.

He should be ignored or silenced!

How have you contributed to this topic? Simple praise, contradiction, and unclear 'facts' don't really help. I'm presenting valid points. Hear me out.

There's no need to badger Steef for proof of what players were part of the NPO as he's stating facts, it's wide knowledge and as my father was one of their many terrific players and played on the recording in question. I can easily give you a list of some of the key players.

I was trying to establish my theory that "members of the LSO, who played on the OST" did not play on this recording. I would be interesting to see a NPO 'key players' list for this album, but it would need to be compared to the LSO's Star Wars sessions. But it's beside the point, really; this is not my argument. Yes, I'm being critical of the performance.

All players have off days, that's only natural but I really think you're reaching and being far too critical!

I don't think so. This professional recording is clearly a notch below the others I mentioned. I think you're not being critical enough. It's not reasonable to assume that most of the brass section personnel had "off days" all on the same day. They simply didn't perform up to the standard as presented in the other Star Wars re-recordings.

Using tracks times, I will create a list of the indisputable performance errors AND the exceptional/best parts in the NPO's Star Wars suite. Then we can discuss the specifics of the performance.

[Romão 2,274]

Now I'm actually worried that if you point out these performance errors, I might start noticing them too

[Marian Schedenig 8,178]

Me too.

[A24 4,327]

Star Wars needs to be rerecorded. They are doing it with other important scores (see the many Goldsmith and McNeely rerecordings), so why not with Star Wars?

[Mattris 416]

Star Wars needs to be rerecorded. They are doing it with other important scores (see the many Goldsmith and McNeely rerecordings), so why not with Star Wars?

I would much prefer to have the OSTs properly-mixed and released on SA-CD. Sony could have produced this years ago, but held out... and instead released the same presentation on CD, re-packaged... again and again.

To make a complete re-recording worth bothering with, it would have to be done right: a first-class orchestra, music hall, and recording engineers. (The Prague Phil. and Co. simply will not do.) I say, Williams himself and the Chicago Symphony!

[Elmo Lewis 6]

Star Wars needs to be rerecorded. They are doing it with other important scores (see the many Goldsmith and McNeely rerecordings), so why not with Star Wars?

I would hate to listen to Star Wars in that aseptic, lifelesly pristine sound we get these days. Think "Binary Sunset" as played in Attack of the Clones.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Well, possibly because there are a hell of a lot of recordings of pieces from the SW trilogy out there already.

The OST has been released several times.

Why knows what Lucasfilm charches to have this re-recorded, or if they will even allow it.

[Quintus 5,399]

Gerhardt's recordings are almost universally praised, so I think that means you are tone deaf!

What a silly statement. As an experienced musician and critical listener of orchestral music, I say that Gerhardt's Star Wars is - without a doubt - one of the worst professionally-recorded.

I say bollocks to that. The only problem I have with the superb Gerhardt recordings is that they're rather unambitious straight reproductions of the original source material.

Given the choice, I'd be more interested in hearing a stylistic and ever-entertaining Erich Kunzel approach, but that's just me being fussy. Gerhardt's recordings are absolutely spot on, if a little safe.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Huh?

Tempo wise they can vary a lot from the OST recordings.

And the arrangements are often different.

But thank you for your support.

[Quintus 5,399]

All I'm saying is they seem to me like a streamlined emulation, rather than a creative alternative.

Albeit excellently performed and recorded, MATTMANE.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

And that is a bad thing?

These recordings were done in a time when soundtrack releases were still a very rare thing.

The Star Wars scores are actually the only contempory ones Gerhardt and Korngold tackled, the others were all from the Golden Age.

I'm sure a lot of them had no releases of any kind, so having a first class recording, and music that closely emulates the original can only be a good thing.

[Quintus 5,399]

That information actually puts the recordings into context, to this sometimes uninformed ear. Thanks. As you know I love my film music, but this board has taught me that I'm hardly the Northern England expert on the subject.

In any case, this titbit of insight tells me that the Gerhardt recordings are important recordings indeed, in the JW scheme of things.

That said, I'd still rather hear a Kunzel approach.

[Marian Schedenig 8,178]

All I'm saying is they seem to me like a streamlined emulation, rather than a creative alternative.

I disagree. I previously praised that Gerhardt ignored the films and concentrated on the music, and by that I meant that he seems to have studied and conducted the suite like a "classical" piece. That's why I focused on phrasing, he takes tempos and little moments like a symphony, not like a film score that has to stay close to a click track. To me, it sounds less streamlined than most other "re-recordings", which often just vary in basic tempo choices and focus on instrument groups.

By the way, I listened to Gerhardt's ROTJ again and found it somewhat uneven. The highlights still improve on the OST in a few cases, but some other cues sound a bit lackluster.

Didn't Gerhardt also record an album of Holdridge music? I believe I've read about that a couple of times.

[Greg1138 3]

That would be THIS ONE. Not familiar with this one at all, but might seek it out as it's got Beastmaster on there - a score that totally transcended a movie if there ever was one....it's an LSO recording too.

[A24 4,327]

Well, possibly because there are a hell of a lot of recordings of pieces from the SW trilogy out there already.

The OST has been released several times.

Why knows what Lucasfilm charches to have this re-recorded, or if they will even allow it.

'Best of Star Wars' is not what i have in mind. It needs to be rerecorded from A to Z because people complain about the sound quality of the original recording. All the remasters sound dreadfully strident.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I'd prefer a proper remaster, and a subsequent SACD release.

[A24 4,327]

For that you need a proper master tape. I fear that there is no such thing. A good master tape needs very little remastering. If you need to remaster it like crazy to get it somewhat decent, then I have no need for another release.

Look at it this way, Steef, they are still releasing new recordings of Bach, Vivaldi and Stravinsky using the latest recording techniques. Why not treat Star Wars the same way?

I would like to hear the original master to find out how hard it differs from the CDs.

Alex

[TownerFan 4,983]

I'd prefer a proper remaster, and a subsequent SACD release.

That'd be more than welcome. I hope we'll se a proper boxset with all six scores remastered and complete. Lucas is planning to re-release all the six films in 3D sometimes in the future, that would be the right occasion, I think.

[A24 4,327]

That'd be more than welcome. I hope we'll se a proper boxset with all six scores remastered and complete. Lucas is planning to re-release all the six films in 3D sometimes in the future, that would be the right occasion, I think.

You want them to remaster the new digital recordings as well?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Of course. TPM is from 1999, the stone ages.

These days everything sounds so much better.

Don't knock them though. In those days these did not have the technical know-how to record an orchestra like the LSO properly.

[A24 4,327]

But ...

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

To remove said tongue from said cheek.

TPM sounds amazing, but AOTC has definate issues and ROTS has a mix that just sounds....boring.

Of course if they remaster the Star Wars scores today they will just make then sound louder

[mahler3 478]

There is no need to aergue with this abomination.

He should be ignored or silenced!

How have you contributed to this topic? Simple praise, contradiction, and unclear 'facts' don't really help. I'm presenting valid points. Hear me out.

There's no need to badger Steef for proof of what players were part of the NPO as he's stating facts, it's wide knowledge and as my father was one of their many terrific players and played on the recording in question. I can easily give you a list of some of the key players.

I was trying to establish my theory that "members of the LSO, who played on the OST" did not play on this recording. I would be interesting to see a NPO 'key players' list for this album, but it would need to be compared to the LSO's Star Wars sessions. But it's beside the point, really; this is not my argument. Yes, I'm being critical of the performance.

All players have off days, that's only natural but I really think you're reaching and being far too critical!

I don't think so. This professional recording is clearly a notch below the others I mentioned. I think you're not being critical enough. It's not reasonable to assume that most of the brass section personnel had "off days" all on the same day. They simply didn't perform up to the standard as presented in the other Star Wars re-recordings.

Using tracks times, I will create a list of the indisputable performance errors AND the exceptional/best parts in the NPO's Star Wars suite. Then we can discuss the specifics of the performance.

I listened to the CD again this morning on the way to work, as I started to feel that perhaps I was being biased etc. However I'm glad to say that I still fail to see anything wrong with the recording and I don't want to be patronised to again saying you're a professional critic and musician, i think you just have a bizarre personal distaste for the album and that's fine, you're entitled to your opinion just don't force it down our throats!

[Greg1138 3]

Well - CD arrived this morning and duly put immediately into CD player to try and figure out what the fuss is about....

You know - there are a group of people - professional or not - that still have a real problem discerning interpretation. Those people really need to go back and listen to this CD.

Sure there is the occasional bit of loose playing (find me a CD where there isn't, please? Even the LSO have turned out the occasional shaving-mirror-of-shite) and I don't agree with one or two of the interpretational choices made by Gerhardt (one of his choices of tempi is just plain wrong, I think - but every conductor is guilty of that at some point - hell, listen to a Nic Raine/City of Prague CD!), but that does not necessarily a bad CD make. The much talked-about recording quality and remastering gives me a problem just occasionally - particularly at one point towards the end of the Main Title where I have to give Gerhardt, Korngold and the orchestra the benefit of the doubt and fully believe it's a cock-up (and a fairly tragic one at that) on the remastering front.

What worries me is that there are apparent "professionals" who would discredit this recording entirely because of perceived problems, and I'll grant that some of those problems are genuine but some of them are just plain matters of taste and interpretation. And, perhaps naturally for a forum such as this, there is pure contrarianism creeping in too.

Before anyone jumps down my throat over this, I would point out that yes, I am listening as a JWFan, but also as someone with an open mind about what I hear and as a musician with over 25 years playing and conducting similar music etc etc etc etc etc.

I'm no idiot. I know my shit. I know what floats my boat and what doesn't.

Steef and others - thanks for the advice, I only actually wanted one track from it but you have introduced me to a superb CD.

Greg

Close Encounters Suite - Gerhardt

[Wojo 2,453]

I'd like to point out something, even though I have not added anything constructive to this argument.

Has anybody ever had a problem with the sloppy beginning to the Star Wars Main Title in Return of the Jedi? It's there in the 1993 Anthology, which I'm listening to now, as well as the 1997 Special Edition. Instead of everybody beginning with a solid "BA!", it sounds like the timpani hits a hair early, and the trumpets sound like "Ba-LA!"

Also, the triplet leading back into the A part of the melody is run through much quicker in Return of the Jedi, as opposed to the way it's held out in Star Wars and Empire.

Minor quirks. It's made it quite easy to pick out which Main Title you're listening to in the first three movies.

[Marian Schedenig 8,178]

one of his choices of tempi is just plain wrong, I think

Out of interest: Which one?

particularly at one point towards the end of the Main Title where I have to give Gerhardt, Korngold and the orchestra the benefit of the doubt and fully believe it's a cock-up (and a fairly tragic one at that) on the remastering front.

The CD sounds a bit muddy, but I love the overall sound. I guess I can attribute that to Kingsway Hall.

By the way, does your (or anyone else's) CE3K suite have a click right at the big climax of the theme? Or is that just my CD?