Loudness Wars

[Naïve Old Fart 9,528]

Spic and span no doubt, and completely soulless.

If that's true, the normal CDs will become very sought-after. OTOH, the new ones will probably be louder and therefore deemed better.

Actually, they are not bad, at all. I have listened to bits of my favourite era remasters-Revolver to Abbey Road (I ABSOLUTELY REFUSE to listen to Let It Be!) At first, the cleaning up may not be all that apparent, but, as they say, "God is in the details". It's the little bits of stuff going on in the background that is now more upfront. Vocals seem to be in the room, and Ringo Starr's drum kit (he really is a terribly underrated drummer) sonunds a lot tighter. Anyway, judge for yourself. Of course, what I've just posted probably isn't enough to entice someone to go out and spend well over £150 on these things, so try bofore you buy. Me? Well, I'm something of a major Beatles fan, so...

[AI 0]

as they say, "God is in the details".

No he isn't. He IS the detail.

[A24 4,333]

At first, the cleaning up may not be all that apparent, but, as they say, "God is in the details".

Hmm, these are signs of a good remastering job. I don't trust reviews that say, "Wow, what a difference! It's like I hear my tweeters for the very first time!"

Alex

[Naïve Old Fart 9,528]

At first, the cleaning up may not be all that apparent, but, as they say, "God is in the details".

Hmm, these are signs of a good remastering job. I don't trust reviews that say, "Wow, what a difference! It's like I hear my tweeters for the very first time!"

Alex

Don't get me wrong, Alex, these are not remixes, like "Yellow Submarine Songtrack", or "Love", these are the ORIGINAL mixes-love 'em, or hate 'em (e.g., the original mixes of "It's All Too Much", and "Baby, You're A Rich Man", even though I prefer the remixes of those two tracks). Lets remember that no remastering/remixing can alter the sound of a bad recording (case in point, the remixing of "...and then there were three...", and "Duke", by Genesis). You can't polish a turd! If you want proof of this last sentence, just listen to "ROTJ"! Seriously, these are remasters done with care, consideration, and love (no pun intended).

[Henry B 50]

Actually, RotJ suffered from the use of improper transferring equipment. The 2005 "Musical Journey" DVD reveals that the RotJ masters still sound excellent. Anywho, I'm really interested in these Beatles remasterings, but the whole catalog is a little crazy. I'll probably just pick up a few CDs. Mono or stereo, what do you think?

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

Actually, RotJ suffered from the use of improper transferring equipment. The 2005 "Musical Journey" DVD reveals that the RotJ masters still sound excellent. Anywho, I'm really interested in these Beatles remasterings, but the whole catalog is a little crazy. I'll probably just pick up a few CDs. Mono or stereo, what do you think?

You can't 'just pick up a few CDs' if you want the mono. Its everything (minus 3 originally released in stereo albums) or nothing.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Why didn't they do this as Hybrid SACD's?

[Wojo 2,453]

Somebody cut off one of my earbuds to be funny. Now I listen to everything in mono.

[Jacob 0]

The bastard.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,528]

Actually, RotJ suffered from the use of improper transferring equipment. The 2005 "Musical Journey" DVD reveals that the RotJ masters still sound excellent. Anywho, I'm really interested in these Beatles remasterings, but the whole catalog is a little crazy. I'll probably just pick up a few CDs. Mono or stereo, what do you think?

Actually, RotJ suffered from the use of improper transferring equipment. The 2005 "Musical Journey" DVD reveals that the RotJ masters still sound excellent. Anywho, I'm really interested in these Beatles remasterings, but the whole catalog is a little crazy. I'll probably just pick up a few CDs. Mono or stereo, what do you think?

You can't 'just pick up a few CDs' if you want the mono. Its everything (minus 3 originally released in stereo albums) or nothing.

The conniseur will ALWAYS go for the mono mixes, as The Beatles themselves mixed in stereo almost as an afterthought. As has been posted, the mono mixes are not available seperately, and there's the rub; buying the mono box set, you get the mixes as The Beatles intended you to hear them, but you have to pay almost £200 pounds for the privilege. This will surely put a lot of fans off. I am buying the stereo mixes gradually (I can't be arsed with the d.v.d., as it is culled from Anthology) and I will buy the mono set when it comes down in price. As for ROTJ, why won't they released the score newly remastered? I can't believe that Lucas, J.W., etc. are actually happy with the audio fog that is is current c.d. relaese?

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

This is an interesting take on the subject. Nearly a year old now, but somehow I missed it at the time.

[Datameister 2,042]

Just to weigh in on the previous debate, while this thread has been bumped...I hate having to adjust my volume while listening to music. I don't have to do that in real life, and I don't want to do that as part of the CD/iTunes/iPod listening experience. I also don't want to have my ears blown out by overly loud music (easy enough to do with my Sony MDR-7506 headphones), but I want to be able to hear everything in reasonably quiet passages, too. For this reason...I don't mind the dynamic range getting crunched a little bit. I definitely hate clipping, and I have no interest in an album being mixed so the entire thing is WAY too loud, but I'm happy when I've got an album with a volume level that's comparable to the average volume level of my other albums, and that I can comfortably listen to without having to play with the volume too much.

[A24 4,333]

First The Beatles, now Kraftwerk!

You got to love the design!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The last 4 Bond scores by Arnold have been mixed too loud.

MASSIVE BUMP!

Cannot believe is missed this back in the day.

The World Is Not Enough is one of the best recorded and mixed scores I have ever heard, perfectly balanced between the electronics and the seperate sections of the orchestra.

[Trent B 337]

Interesting thread...I think I briefly remember this one. I don't know if this falls into the same category or not but people have reported that John Debney's score is barely audible in Iron Man 2, which is a damn shame.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Home Alone 2 generally sounds very good, but it gets way too loud for instance in Race to the Room / Hot Pursuit. I think it's the part where the concierge crash into each other chasing him to the elevator, the big goofy crescendo. I get that clipping distortion at that part.

[Trent B 337]

To bring this old topic up since someone on FSM recently mentioned it in regards to Star Trek: The Deluxe Edition. I noticed Varèse tends to amp up cues for their releases. I've gone through most of the ones I have with them and most of the cues are amped up more than what they should. However the other labels tend to make sure they really aren't amped up too much to where there's clipping involved. I wonder why Varèse does this with their scores.

[Andy 4,127]

Here's Douglas Fake's take on the subject (From Doug's Corner):

I get queries about a technical issue that's probably of interest to many listeners. With all of the current re-mastered editions of earlier releases, newly expanded versions and whatnot... people ask why are there differences in the playback volumes between multiple versions of the same title and does it matter? Here's my quick response.

Some labels do a lot of "normalizing" of their programs (others do not) and yes it matters. Normalizing is a process where - during final mastering - the reference levels are set to the very highest peak in volume of the entire program - and then subsequently, every other track is adjusted to match that level peak. We tend to avoid the process unless it becomes absolutely necessary because normalizing actually does affect the recording, especially with orchestral music. There is a tendency to subtly alter the contrasts between loud passages and intentionally soft ones. We generally prefer to let the conductor, musicians and original recording engineers determine how loud or soft they want various passages to be.

Further complicating the situation is a process (also used by some labels but avoided by others) called "compression", where the recording at both ends is literally squeezed to allow a consistently loud playback. Virtually all engineering for all labels strives for the loudest playback levels without distortion and whatnot. But normalizing and compressing simply to make the entire program louder isn't necessarily a good thing. It's one reason our recent issue of ROBOCOP, prepared from the newly re-mixed 2" 24-track masters seems less "hot" than the earlier Varese Sarabande release, even though it offers superior clarity and sonics. Our version is just as loud, but only when the performance and original recording warrant it... and not throughout.

Normalizing and compressing the recordings during mastering was a really common practice for LPs, especially in the pop and rock fields. This way, every track of the record played back at a volume roughly equivalent to every other track, making it easier for DJs to set airplay levels and let things roll instead of needing to make constant adjustments. It's a process that still gets used a lot. I'm just not a big fan of it with orchestral music, where subtle changes in performance levels really are the domain of the conductor, players and recording engineer. Over-use of it actually reduces the expressive and dynamic range of the actual recording, which is a concept I find unsatisfying.

Sadly, the process now shows up a lot with many of the current soundtracks on several labels, especially with regards to some of the more repetitive, percussion and synth-driven scores. In my opinion, it only increases the feel of the music being somewhat bland and generic.

I'll try to find time to toss out some more fun thoughts on production decisions that get made behind the scenes... but I do have trouble finding extra time lately. Such is life.

[A24 4,333]

I didn't try it yet but this VST plugin called 'Relife' might be a solution for those crazy loud remastered CDs. Look at the before/after graphic.

Link

Alex

[Corellian2019 386]

I didn't try it yet but this VST plugin called 'Relife' might be a solution for those crazy loud remastered CDs. Look at the before/after graphic.

Link

Is anyone gonna try it with the Concord Indiana Jones CDs?

[Datameister 2,042]

I don't recall any clipping in those releases...

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

There isn't.

[A24 4,333]

They are just EQ'd too obviously. The point of Relife is to make CDs that are mastered with heavy brickwall limiting breath again.

[Datameister 2,042]

I can't decide if I like it or not. Maybe a happy medium between the darker analog sound of the OSTs and the bright, digitally EQ'd sound of the Concord releases would have been nice (preferably with certain mixing decisions taken from each). Then again, Raiders is the only one that strikes me as substantially EQ'd - TOD is bright, too, but it fits the recording, and TLC isn't especially bright.

[A24 4,333]

It's never good when you can hear EQ, Datameister. Anyway, I'm not sure if there are many soundtracks that are victim of the Loudness Wars. I have the impression that this is more of a concern for new and remastered pop albums.

[Corellian2019 386]

The waveform of "Belly of the Steel Beast" from the Concord release has some peaks that are chopped off i.e. "crazy loud" in some passages

[Datameister 2,042]

It's never good when you can hear EQ, Datameister.

Well, EQ is meant to be heard...wouldn't do much good if the results didn't sound any different from the original. But anyway, yeah, I agree that EQing should generally be used to make the recording sound closer to the real thing, except where it's used as a special effect.

[A24 4,333]

It's never good when you can hear EQ, Datameister.

Well, EQ is meant to be heard...wouldn't do much good if the results didn't sound any different from the original.

Not completely sure if you understand what I'm saying. EQ is meant to correct. It's a basic rule in audio recording that when you hear EQ, it already is too much. EQ shouldn't be apparent otherwise you'll end up hearing the effect too much. It becomes distracting. A guideline for good EQ-ing is that the listener shouldn't really notice it or that he certainly doesn't think "EQ". This is true for 99,9 procent of all recordings. We don't really hear the EQ but it is there. I know you placed a winkie and all but I want to make sure we are on the same page. I think the producers of Concord figured that the sound difference between old and new had to be really clear (without the need for comparing to the original) which is actually a beginner's mistake. Maybe they thought people will only buy it when the difference hits them in the face.

[Datameister 2,042]

No, I understood, and I agree. I was just poking fun at the wording, haha. The only thing I'm not so certain about is whether they went too far with the Concord releases. I think TLC definitely wasn't overdone, and I think TOD sounds absolutely phenomenal, but Raiders is a tough call. Sometimes I like how bright it is, but sometimes it does feel a little like overkill. I dunno.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

EQ should be like great make-up. There, but not so you'd notice...

[crocodile 8,012]

Glad I'm not a audiophile. At least I get more sleep at night.

Karol

[Datameister 2,042]

EQ should be like great make-up. There, but not so you'd notice...

[Taikomochi 1,136]

No, I understood, and I agree. I was just poking fun at the wording, haha. The only thing I'm not so certain about is whether they went too far with the Concord releases. I think TLC definitely wasn't overdone, and I think TOD sounds absolutely phenomenal, but Raiders is a tough call. Sometimes I like how bright it is, but sometimes it does feel a little like overkill. I dunno.

Really? I always thought Concord's TOD sounded extremely reverbed at parts. Unnaturally so.

[Faleel 5,348]

It sounds better than the bootlegs and DVD rips....

[Datameister 2,042]

It never struck me as sounding unnatural. It always just sounded bright and clear but not overly dry to me.

[Trent B 337]

I didn't try it yet but this VST plugin called 'Relife' might be a solution for those crazy loud remastered CDs. Look at the before/after graphic.

Link

Alex

Hey Alex what program is this plugin associated with?

Edit: Never mind figured it out that it was Audacity. I just tried it and it definitely works. I tried it from "You Don't Dream In Cryo" from the isolated type score for AVATAR.

[Trent B 337]

By the way to show that the plugin Alex talked about on page 2, here's a screen cap I did for "Trekking Down The Narada". I did even just a regular lowing of the volume but the file was still clipped, you could even see it. This plugin definitely restores the clipped audio.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y60/BigT1981/TrekkingDownTheNaradaComparison.jpg

[A24 4,333]

Okay, we can see the difference but can you hear it? That is the question.

Alex

[Trent B 337]

Okay, we can see the difference but can you hear it? That is the question.

Alex

I don't know it's a bit hard for me to tell the differences.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Okay, we can see the difference but can you hear it? That is the question.

Alex

Don't be so old-fashioned Alex. These days we only judge sound quality by looking how something sounds.

A spectral analysis is far more effective then your fancy speakers.....

[Datameister 2,042]

Clipping is most definitely an audible problem. It's not one of those things where you have to look at the waveform to know if it's going on - that's just a way to confirm it. Clipped audio will have a harsh, clicking, fuzzy edge to it. It quite literally sounds too loud, which is exactly what it is - the signal is trying to go "out of bounds", and so you end up with information just being lopped off, which sounds terrible. I haven't had a chance to test this plugin on my own (I'm without access to my own computer), but if it does indeed work, than it's a very real improvement, not just something you have to rely on your eyes to find.

[Joe Brausam 214]

Glad I'm not a audiophile. At least I get more sleep at night.

Karol

[Trent B 337]

I sent "Trekking Down The Narada" with the VST plugin added to a fellow JWFANer to see if he could hear the difference. He said he can and that the drums aren't distorted like before.