Star Wars vs The Empire Strikes Back: The scores

[Jay 37,356]

Right. It's actually in more cues that SW - I count 13 cues in SW, 16 in ESB, and 10 in ROTJ

[JoeinAR 1,949]

really who cares about the head count?

Star Wars is once again under appreciated.

[Ollie 1,059]

I prefer Star Wars and that's all that matters to me.

[Wojo 2,453]

Certainly enjoying both equally does not mean I under appreciate one of the scores I enjoy equally without also under appreciating the other one just as equally, correct?

At any rate, I abstain from voting because without fear of gunpoint, I do not feel I should have to choose.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

I love the bridge from Vader's theme to the love theme in ESB's end credits.

[Quintus 5,399]

As Williams at his peak bridges go, I think it's just okay.

[Datameister 2,042]

Certainly enjoying both equally does not mean I under appreciate one of the scores I enjoy equally without also under appreciating the other one just as equally, correct?

False! Also appreciating another score else automatically means that you hate Star Wars, and thus do not deserve the right to live!

And I love that bridge, too.

[Wojo 2,453]

Certainly enjoying both equally does not mean I under appreciate one of the scores I enjoy equally without also under appreciating the other one just as equally, correct?

False! Also appreciating another score else automatically means that you hate Star Wars, and thus do not deserve the right to live!

And I love that bridge, too.

You must forgive me, I didn't read the unofficial rules before I started posting here.

[Jacob 0]

Battle of the Joeys continues...

[Datameister 2,042]

Battle?! Didn't you read my post? Clearly I agree with that other fellow's reasoning...

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Battle of the Joeys continues...

There are too many Joes and Marks on this board.

[AI 0]

Ehehe, 'Joey' used to be slang for a condom, where I live.

ESB, I believe King mark said it was the combination of all Williams genius rolled into one score, or something like that...

Well I agree with his sentiment.

[Elmo Lewis 6]

Empire Strikes Back was written before Star Wars had an established sound, so Williams wasn't trying to be anything when he was writing it. Unlike Return of the Jedi, which feels like it wants to sound Star Wars-y (and, as a result, has plenty of standout moments but no defined "vibe" to it), ESB experiments with old themes and fearlessly pushes them to a different territory. It has a tone, a push, a personality that informs even its more common underscore spots. It is the only score in the saga to do this.

[Datameister 2,042]

Star Wars as a saga never had a single established sound, IMO. Each score has its own tone, and they're all similar enough to work together, but they're pretty different.

[John Crichton 4]

Williams' most unique action writing can be found in ESB.

[Ollie 1,059]

Star Wars as a saga never had a single established sound, IMO. Each score has its own tone, and they're all similar enough to work together, but they're pretty different.

Correct.

[Elmo Lewis 6]

Are you including the prequels, and their interchangeable underscore, in that statement?

[Datameister 2,042]

Yep.

[Wojo 2,453]

Battle of the Joeys continues...

There are too many Joes and Marks on this board.

There could potentially be too many Richards here as well.

[Trumpeteer 302]

The Empire Strikes Back is "space opera" personified, both in the film and in the music. I can listen to the score of ESB and feel what happens in the film. I often felt that someone could put lyrics to the score of ESB and it could play as an actual opera.

I will always love Star Wars for being the first, but Empire took the genre a step further and is what all action scores should try to achieve. Emotion and thrills without simply being just music to cover a boring scene. That is what Jedi became at times and what 90 percent of the prequel scores were. The orchestrations are about as perfect as they can get. In Star wars, I think Williams relied too much on brass.

The final 30 minutes of music are absolutely superb. The love theme when Han is lowered into the carbonite chamber. Vader's theme as he and Luke fight. The love theme again as R2 opens the door to get to the Falcon. The interplay of action music and Vader's theme during the escape from Cloud City. The love theme again to close out the film. Only the finale of ET surpasses it.

[Kevin 22]

The Empire Strikes Back is "space opera" personified, both in the film and in the music. I can listen to the score of ESB and feel what happens in the film. I often felt that someone could put lyrics to the score of ESB and it could play as an actual opera.

I will always love Star Wars for being the first, but Empire took the genre a step further and is what all action scores should try to achieve. Emotion and thrills without simply being just music to cover a boring scene. That is what Jedi became at times and what 90 percent of the prequel scores were. The orchestrations are about as perfect as they can get. In Star wars, I think Williams relied too much on brass.

The final 30 minutes of music are absolutely superb. The love theme when Han is lowered into the carbonite chamber. Vader's theme as he and Luke fight. The love theme again as R2 opens the door to get to the Falcon. The interplay of action music and Vader's theme during the escape from Cloud City. The love theme again to close out the film. Only the finale of ET surpasses it.

Plus, there's the Asteroid freaking Field...

[Henry B 50]

I listened to Star Wars the other day to stay sane while doing counterpoint homework.

So good.

I swear, Williams tapped into some mythic power when he wrote this score. It's just unlike any other work of his.

[John Crichton 4]

It's always interesting to hear you say that, to my untrained ear it always comes across as the simplest of the SW scores.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

Empire Strikes Back will always win this poll for me (and we've had this poll several times already if I'm not much mistaken). However, Star Wars is an incredible score. Both are superior to Maestro Williams' offerings of the last 15 years or so.

[Datameister 2,042]

It's always interesting to hear you say that, to my untrained ear it always comes across as the simplest of the SW scores.

They're all complex. Star Wars is...different from the others, at least. I don't know if I'd say it's less "simple" than its siblings, but its complexity is of a different sort.

[Ollie 1,059]

It's always interesting to hear you say that, to my untrained ear it always comes across as the simplest of the SW scores.

Perhaps "familiar" is the more appropriate term to use, but I understand what you mean.

[Bowie 45]

ROTJ.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Sometimes simplest is best. Its true in music, cooking, storytelling, etc.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Sometimes simplest is best.

I agree, that's why Zimmer is so good.

[Kevin 22]

Quick question, in the "Clash of the Lightsabres cue in the film, why do we hear Yoda's theme as Leia/Lando/Co escaping just before Lando tells everyone to get out because the Imperial will invade?

[John Crichton 4]

Yoda's theme is woven through the whole Cloud City sequence from Luke's arrival to signify that is prediction of disaster is coming true.

[Datameister 2,042]

I think he threw it in there just because it was a good theme. I generally don't like it when composers do things that way - another good example of that would be Leia's theme after Obi-Wan's death - but when Williams does it, the results often sound so good that it's hard to get too worked up about it. I mean, you can come up with tenuous ways of explaining the connection in cases like these, but at the end of the day, there are other themes that would have been more appropriate in terms of sheer leitmotivic meaning. It's the emotional content that's winning out.

[Ollie 1,059]

Both of you are probably correct. I would imagine williams used it because it sounded good and it also underscored Luke's will to continue fighting after being brutally beaten and thrust out the window, as well as Leia and the gang turning the tide and escaping.

[Tallguy 3,386]

I'll go with Star Wars by a hair. Empire is amazing, truly astonishing. But Star Wars has a little more economy than Empire and I think that's all to the good. SW has The Imperial Attack and The Last Battle. Star Wars wins. Also, as iconic as the Imperial March is, SW has it's own Darth Vader's theme and that's just cool.

Oh, and on the sub-poll? Princess Leia's theme every time. For the ending if nothing else. Ahhhhhhhhh.

Someone mentioned "themes out of nowhere" in Empire. Of course, ALL of the themes are out of nowhere in SW. The moment that always made me go "hmmm" after I knew all this stuff is the quote of Ben's theme (later the Force theme) when Leia give R2 the tapes. It makes perfect sense. But what effect does it have on an audience? Is there a part of the brain that gets wired with that information and connects it even a little bit when Ben shows up later?

My favorite reprise in Empire is not even in the movie. When Chewbacca is introduced and Luke's "B" theme is played. I melt.

Yoda's theme in Bespin: It just sounds good. I've tried to make it make sense (if it's because his "prophesy is coming true", he sure sounds cheery about it) but it comes down to "it just sounds good".

The bridge between the Imperial March and the Love Theme in the ESB credits: Ah, the waning days of Williams writing credits instead of a collection of concert pieces. The transitions in any Williams score end titles after this (that I can think of) are either unremarkable or even not good.

[Kevin 22]

If A New Hope was just as long as The Empire Strikes Back, movie-wise, it might be relevant to point out that A New Hope would be filled with as much 'filler' music too?

[Charlie Brigden 7]

I think that because ESB has such a greater breadth of scope, the music then becomes more demanding.

As for Yoda's theme in Clash of Lightsabers, I agree with Mark that it's probably mostly because it fit well. I remember the original LP liner notes stating that it is heard 'as Luke applies himself' then thought 'wait, Luke isn't anywhere in this scene.' But who cares, it's awesome.

[Morn 8]

No I don't think Star Wars started it all. It's really a tribute to Korngold and in that sense is as much a sequel score as the other star wars scores. . And of all these, ESB is by far the best.

Takes a genius to out Korngold Korngold.

[Tallguy 3,386]

If A New Hope was just as long as The Empire Strikes Back, movie-wise, it might be relevant to point out that A New Hope would be filled with as much 'filler' music too?

I don't have the figures in front of me, but ESB has quite a bit more music than SW.

No I don't think Star Wars started it all. It's really a tribute to Korngold and in that sense is as much a sequel score as the other star wars scores. . And of all these, ESB is by far the best.

Takes a genius to out Korngold Korngold.

I've been thinking about this for a few days now (not that I think I'm going to sway anyone one way or the other) and I think that's why SW comes off as a bit more subtle (!!!) than ESB. It's a little more, um, serious? Case in point is the Darth Vader theme in SW vs. The Imperial March. The SW one was never going to be a hit single but I think it's more menacing. ESB's is a lot broader and more fun. (But not as broad as Superman's March of the Villains.) ESB is SW turned up to 11. Which one you like better is probably based on if you think that's an improvement.

And again, they're BOTH amazing scores. (And again, Princess Leia's theme all the way.)

[Desplat13 1]

The Empire Strikes Back. For sure.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Yoda's theme in Bespin: It just sounds good. I've tried to make it make sense (if it's because his "prophesy is coming true", he sure sounds cheery about it) but it comes down to "it just sounds good".

I don't really understand why this comes up. To me, Yoda's theme eventually transcends the character of Yoda and represents the side of good much in the way Vader's theme also represents the side of evil.

[Red 75]

Hmm, I don't hear that. Vader's theme is symbolic of the Empire as a whole but Yoda's theme is just that, his own character theme. If anything the Rebel fanfare is the motif that became representative of the 'collective good' (possibly Luke's theme as well).

[Datameister 2,042]

Yeah...Yoda's theme is otherwise used pretty exclusively as a leitmotif for the character himself.

[Wojo 2,453]

Both of you are probably correct. I would imagine williams used it because it sounded good and it also underscored Luke's will to continue fighting after being brutally beaten and thrust out the window, as well as Leia and the gang turning the tide and escaping.

I warn you know that my possible explanations only work in hindsight. But as Luke departed Dagobah, Yoda tells Obi-Wan "there is another" hope. We will learn three years later that Leia is this other hope, the other Force-sensitive Skywalker twin. Unless George Lucas planned Yoda's cryptic message -- and explained it to John Williams in 1980 -- there was no way to know this and musically herald Leia as the other hope with Yoda's Theme.

On the other hand, the only way that Luke survives Bespin at all is because Leia hears him through the Force: he is a Jedi and she is Force sensitive by birthright, not to mention the Force is defined by Yoda as an energy field present in all beings that binds the galaxy together, and Leia is a living being. It's doubtful that Yoda himself intervened in Leia's escape from Bespin, but hearing his theme at moment of escape turns the tide on Yoda's prophecy of disaster, and gives Luke a way to survive and escape Vader.

In the end, it's just a place for Williams to use one of his new themes kicked up a notch into action mode, in a longer and more developed statement than just the Rebel Fanfare again.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Right...

Now explain Leia's theme when Luke sees Vader killing Ben!

[Wojo 2,453]

I really can't. It's not like John Williams is blaming Leia for Ben's death, because of how she dragged him back into action for one last time.

The sad Force Theme heard at ~1:00, as Luke and Leia mourn for a few minutes at the Falcon's table, would not have worked, because the scene needed some loud grandiose music. Yet Leia's Theme was not necessarily action music, while we have heard Ben's Theme in action settings. It was a curious selection.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

I stand by the Yoda's theme = good guy music theory.

Leia's theme also doesn't really need explanation? Or maybe I just don't care that much. It's a moving theme and JW must have felt it worked best at that particular moment. And since it turned out so brilliant (like Yoda's theme in ESB finale), I'd say he was right.

[Kevin 22]

Too much of his score is dubbed too low in the sound dub for 'Empire Strikes Back': large parts of the score are only faintly heard and I think it's to the movie's loss.

[Datameister 2,042]

Well, and a lot of the score is just dropped altogether. ESB contains an unusually large amount of unused material.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

Save for the original variations of the Imperial March being replaced with the concert version, I am happy that the score was trimmed in the film.

[Datameister 2,042]

I think it was excessive, too. I'm very grateful to have the music, and it's certainly interesting to watch the scenes with the music restored, but most of the edits they made were for the best, I think.