A temp too close

[Musica42 0]

Everyone once in a while you hear a piece of "original" music out of a film composer that follows the temp track just a bit too closely for comfort, so close you can easily discern the original piece. And I'm not talking about something temped with their own music. I'm talking about a piece from another composer and usually from another time period.

Famous examples that I can think of our Horner's Carmina Burana rip from Glory, or Horner's rip of that Raymond Scott tune all over Honey, I Shrunk the Kids, or even Horner's borrowing of some music from Peter and the Wolf in Land Before Time. The most recent one I caught was William Ross completing ripping off La Gazza Ladra in Tales of Despereaux.

I don't mean for this to sound like a Horner bashing, but he is one of the more blatant offenders. Anyone else have a few to add?

Edit:

1. Glory by James Horner:

vs. O Fortuna from Carmina Burana

2. Honey, I Shrunk the Kids by James Horner: score clip vs. Powerhouse

3. Land Before Time by James Horner: score clip vs. Peter and the Wolf

- Compare LBT's 1:20 to Peter and the Wolf's 3:50

- Compare LBT's 1:57 to Peter and the Wolf's 5:37

4. Tales of Desereaux by William Ross: score clip vs. La Gazza Ladra

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Sound at all familiar?

[Musica42 0]

Sound at all familiar?

Hahaha. Why does this kind of stuff entertain me so.

[Datameister 2,037]

Oy...I don't even own Hook, and I STILL recognized that! Also in the theme parks vein, Steve Bramson came up with a fun but unoriginal Williams pastiche for Disneyland Paris's Space Mountain. Its main theme is very E.T.- inspired, with a finale that's got the Raiders March written all over it. Little bits of Horner-isms here and there, too. [EDIT: Forgot to mention that this track is NOT in use any more. Giacchino wrote the current track, and IMO, it's not his best work. He did a much better job with a similar concept for the Space Mountain at Disneyland.]

John Williams himself isn't guiltless in this, of course. We all know about the several Stravinsky and Holst lifts in Star Wars, which have unfortunately acted as ammo for those who wish to defame the work in its mostly-original entirety. Nothing compared to that other composer's rip-off of "The Planets" in that other war movie, though...

[Romão 2,274]

I think it is quite clear that the main title from The Last Emperor by David Byrne was the temp track for Going to School in Memoirs of a Geisha, although both pieces are quite original.

Hear it here

[Musica42 0]

I think it is quite clear that the main title from The Last Emperor by David Byrne was the temp track for Going to School in Memoirs of a Geisha, although both pieces are quite original.

Hear it here

Yup, that one's pretty damn blatant too.

Also I got bored and decided to provide links in my original post so folks can hear first hand what I'm talking about.

John Williams himself isn't guiltless in this, of course. We all know about the several Stravinsky and Holst lifts in Star Wars, which have unfortunately acted as ammo for those who wish to defame the work in its mostly-original entirety. Nothing compared to that other composer's rip-off of "The Planets" in that other war movie, though...

What Williams did with Star Wars is quite a bit different from the other examples here. When I listen to Star Wars I can hear the influences and nods to other pieces but at no point do I feel like he just grabbed a pre-existing piece and used it as a template. I feel the same way about the Zimmer example. Hans still made the music very much his own and the reference to Mars made sense given what was happening on the screen. Is it a hack thing to do in either case? You could certainly make a case for it, but personally I'd say no. References don't bother me, not when something creative is done with them. But just blatantly, for lack of a better word, stealing another composer's work and calling it your own so brazenly really pisses me off. If you want that piece so badly, purchase the rights for it or at the very least acknowledge the source.

[Datameister 2,037]

Zimmer's Mars rip-off is easily on the same level as that Hook rip-off. I literally ran out of the room the first time I heard it. Star Wars is not as direct, and it's only a few seconds here and there, but they're pretty clear examples of "temp love," I think. Whether that's Williams' fault, Lucas's, or someone else altogether...well, your guess is as good as mine. All I know is that the parallels are very strong. It doesn't have to be a full piece in which every moment is translated directly for it to be a case of temp love.

[Indiana_Fett 0]

While we're on Zimmer, I'd like to mention Carl Orff's music used in Badlands, and Zimmer's score to True Romance. Both films are similar though, so I guess I could understand it's use.

[MissPadmé 17]

I never thought that anybody would copy Hans Zimmer (or well the 20 guys that produce the name Hans Zimmer) but tere you go:

Very obvious one:

James Horner's Troy (strangely only in the Director's Cut: the music in the original Version is way of and desn't work atall) Score vs.

also Williams!!

The Terminal - score

vs. original - you need the real player

[A24 4,326]

Tchaikovsky's 'Russian Dance' from 'The Nutcracker Suite' obviously stood model for Home Alone's 'Making The Plane'.

Alex

[Melange 446]

.

Horner does erm...'variations on a theme" of it in Aliens (1:03 to 2:18)

Appearing in another form as Electronic Battlefield from Patriot Games

Appearing in another form as Looking for Clues, in Clear and Present Danger.

It's definately Horner's "Uncovering the truth / Dark Dealings" motif

And I have to say that his adaption of it always worked profoundly well in his scores.

But his most blatant lift is the first frantic 25 seconds of Stealing the Enterprise from Star Trek III

Ripped from a section of Khachaturian or Prokofiev's work. I can't remember which one, now.

I have the section in question on an old casette somewhere.

If I manage to find it again some day, I'll put it on YouTube. It's almost identical.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Zimmer's Mars rip-off is easily on the same level as that Hook rip-off. I literally ran out of the room the first time I heard it. Star Wars is not as direct, and it's only a few seconds here and there, but they're pretty clear examples of "temp love," I think. Whether that's Williams' fault, Lucas's, or someone else altogether...well, your guess is as good as mine. All I know is that the parallels are very strong. It doesn't have to be a full piece in which every moment is translated directly for it to be a case of temp love.

It's not like Zimmer tried to hide the fact he used it, he thanked Holst. Like Musica42 said, it works, and he builds around it with a ton of original music.

While we're on Zimmer, I'd like to mention Carl Orff's music used in Badlands, and Zimmer's score to True Romance. Both films are similar though, so I guess I could understand it's use.

It was an intentional homage, not a temp track. Or maybe both, I actually don't know. But yes, the films are pretty much the same story.

[Ollie 1,059]

Oy...I don't even own Hook, and I STILL recognized that!

Hook has several examples of Williams sticking close to the temp track.

[Musica42 0]

Hook has several examples of Williams sticking close to the temp track.

Aside from the Firebird bit with Tink's arrival, what else was there?

[Ollie 1,059]

I believe "Banning Back Home" is very close an original piece Dave Grusin composed and "You are the Pan" is very similar to Delerue's Agnes Of God score.

[Musica42 0]

But his most blatant lift is the first frantic 25 seconds of Stealing the Enterprise from Star Trek III

Oh wow, if you can find what that's ripped from I'd be greatly amused, considering a variation of that build is in at least half of his scores.

[Beowulf 4]

Oy...I don't even own Hook

Pardon my impertinence, but how can you not own a copy of Hook??

It boggles my mind.

But his most blatant lift is the first frantic 25 seconds of Stealing the Enterprise from Star Trek III

Ripped from a section of Khachaturian or Prokofiev's work. I can't remember which one, now.

I think you are referring to a segment from Prokofiev's 'Romeo And Juliet' (I vaguely remember it being one of the the fight scenes or some other such frantic and energetic moments from the ballet).

[Musica42 0]

I believe "Banning Back Home" is very close an original piece Dave Grusin composed and "You are the Pan" is very similar to Delerue's Agnes Of God score.

I'd never heard this score of Delerue's before, but the amazon samples are enough to hear what your talking about. They're definitely similar, especially harmonically, but it's not something I'd consider a rip. Beautiful score, though, thanks for turning me onto it.

[Datameister 2,037]

It's not like Zimmer tried to hide the fact he used it, he thanked Holst.

I thought the Holst Foundation sued him.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

It's not like Zimmer tried to hide the fact he used it, he thanked Holst.

I thought the Holst Foundation sued him.

They did because he didn't properly credit Holst, but he thanked him.

[MissPadmé 17]

I believe "Banning Back Home" is very close an original piece Dave Grusin composed and "You are the Pan" is very similar to Delerue's Agnes Of God score.

I'd never heard this score of Delerue's before, but the amazon samples are enough to hear what your talking about. They're definitely similar, especially harmonically, but it's not something I'd consider a rip. Beautiful score, though, thanks for turning me onto it.

wrong wrong wrong! this is the greatest direct rip I know of Williams. unfortunately I could not find a sample of the particular cue in the net but if you want I can PM you the example or just post the snippet if I may.

Here you go: "The Agnes of Hook:"

Hook vs Agnes

[Musica42 0]

wrong wrong wrong! this is the greatest direct rip I know of Williams. unfortunately I could not find a sample of the particular cue in the net but if you want I can PM you the example or just post the snippet if I may.

Well the greatest direct rip of Williams' I know is the Can You Read My Mind theme from Superman aka Richard Strauss' Death and Transfiguration, but I wouldn't have started this thread if I didn't want to hear others. Fire away.

[MissPadmé 17]

wrong wrong wrong! this is the greatest direct rip I know of Williams. unfortunately I could not find a sample of the particular cue in the net but if you want I can PM you the example or just post the snippet if I may.

Well the greatest direct rip of Williams' I know is the Can You Read My Mind theme from Superman aka Richard Strauss' Death and Transfiguration, but I wouldn't have started this thread if I didn't want to hear others. Fire away.

no this one might be lesser known but it is far more just copied, just listen to the link I uploaded... I like the copy better though

[bruckhorn 105]

Oy...I don't even own Hook

Pardon my impertinence, but how can you not own a copy of Hook??

It boggles my mind.

But his most blatant lift is the first frantic 25 seconds of Stealing the Enterprise from Star Trek III

Ripped from a section of Khachaturian or Prokofiev's work. I can't remember which one, now.

I think you are referring to a segment from Prokofiev's 'Romeo And Juliet' (I vaguely remember it being one of the the fight scenes or some other such frantic and energetic moments from the ballet).

The cue is "The Death of Tybalt". In the 80's Horner was "borrowing" music from Prokofiev and Khatchaturian with impunity-- their music was composed in the USSR and was public domain. Not saying it was morally okay to do it, but it was legally. When the USSR fell, all of that music was suddenly drawing royalties (primarily through BMI); I wonder if Horner had to settle with Sergei and Aram's estates...

Bill Conti lifted The Seasons by Glazunov (who lifted it from Tchaikovsky's Violin Concerto) in The Right Stuff. And I was amazed when listening to a CD with The Empire Brass; it had a fanfare written in the Renaissance that sounded nearly note for note the Fanfare from Rocky. I'll try to track down the track.

EDIT: Empire Brass- Royal Brass, tack 8. I don't have speakers on the computer I'm working on, so this is if my memory serves. And, please note that the track has two fanfares, so the extract might be the other one.

[Musica42 0]

no this one might be lesser known but it is far more just copied, just listen to the link I uploaded... I like the copy better though

I'm still laughing at this. You're totally right.

[MissPadmé 17]

no this one might be lesser known but it is far more just copied, just listen to the link I uploaded... I like the copy better though

I'm still laughing at this. You're totally right.

when I first heard this on the radio, I thought YEAH that beautiful piece from Hook! once the flute started I was like"WTF?! Is this an alternate?!"

[Datameister 2,037]

Pardon my impertinence, but how can you not own a copy of Hook??

Simple - I'm not rich enough to buy lots of CDs all the time, and Hook is far from my favorite Williams score!

[MissPadmé 17]

.... and Hook is far from my favorite Williams score!

sorry but this deserves a Josh-moment:

[John Crichton 4]

If you want it to be a Josh moment you need to insult him more.

[Wojo 2,453]

I think we need a poll to see who else does not own Hook.

[John Crichton 4]

I think we need a poll on whether Williams ripping off people makes him derivative...oh wait.

[Ollie 1,059]

I think we need to have contest to see who here can build an exact replica of Devil's Tower in their living room.

[Melange 446]

The cue is "The Death of Tybalt".

Certainly is. Cheers for identifying it. Here it is : Tybalt steals the Enterprise on YouTube.

It begins at 1:20 in. Makes me laugh. Naughty Horner

Here is Stealing the Enterprise for comparison.

I think we need to have contest to see who here can build an exact replica of Devil's Tower in their living room.

"What is wrong with mee todaaaaaaay" (I always remember that audio on his TV, during that scene)

[Ollie 1,059]

He's watching Days of Our Lives, and of course the Budwieser commercial then follows.

[Marian Schedenig 8,173]

The all-time worst in a major score? Schumann's 3rd symphony in Escape from the Tavern (Horner's Willow).

[tharpdevenport 4]

Sounds like a movie name...

"In a world full of film scores, there stood a director who fell in love with the temp music.

"Can you copy this?"

"But that's stealing."

"Just copy the damn thing or your fired."

"Fuck."

There stood only one composer who would wantedly give in to the director's demands...

"Elfman refused and told me to go fuck myself. Who's the new guy?"

"Tyler Bates."

He is: Tyler Bates -- in A Temp Too Close..."

[pixie_twinkle 48]

The music for the battle of Castiglione from Time Bandits is very similar to the opening music from

mahler's 6th symphony. The Mahler has to have been the temp track.