David Coscina 3 Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 Although I would not say Williams is a Herrmann enthusiast by the sound of his music, I do hear some similar approaches to orchestrating and the sense of harmony (closed 7th chords). I was listening to Psycho the other day and that quick ascending figure played by tremolo strings was a technique used by Williams in JAWS quite nicely. And of course The Fury was one big ode to Herrmann (I think I read somewhere that De Palma was a total Hitchcock/Herrmann fan and even had the maestro score SISTERS towards the end of his career).Just wondering if anyone else hears some stylistic similarities especially in Williams' thriller film scores. Even parts of Dracula (1979) recall the sonorities exploited by Herrmann in his music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,450 Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 It is well known that J.W. agreed to score "The Fury" because both he and Brian de Palma were such Herrmann fans. I remember reading an interview with J.W. in 1978 in, I think, Films and Filming magazine, and how he said "every note of Benny's music runs through me", or something like that. Make no mistake; J.W. ADORES the music of Herrmann (and so do I). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adoy 1 Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 JW studied under Hermann early in his career, I believe. It would make sense that some style "rubbed off". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,090 Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 And of course The Fury was one big ode to Herrmann (I think I read somewhere that De Palma was a total Hitchcock/Herrmann fan and even had the maestro score SISTERS towards the end of his career).Herrmann wrote at least one more score for De Palma.I guess most serious film composers in the years after Herrmann's time were Herrmann fans to some extent at least. Of course, Herrmann himself was a Britophile (he tried to talk Ralph Vaughan Williams out of shortening his London Symphony), and I think he had a passion for Sibelius as well. You can hear a clear Sibelius influence in parts of Psycho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Parker 3,040 Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 He did love Sibelius, and he also loved Elgar, too.Also, I have stated this before, but it was Bernard Herrmann who prompted John Williams to write his first symphony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hlao-roo 389 Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 I think it's safe to say Herrmann was a Herrmann enthusiast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 The most Herrmannesque moment in a Williams score that I've heard is probably "Bounty Hunter Pursuit," between the action music in the beginning and the variation of the Trade Federation theme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,053 Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 "The Tusken Camp/The Homestead" contains a nod or two to Herrmann. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Parker 3,040 Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 What about Minority Report? The whole score probably features some of John Williams' most overt Herrmann homages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 As a whole score MR probably best pays homage to Herrmann, but as far as individual cues go, I'd stick by "Bounty Hunter Pursuit." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,713 Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 I think it's safe to say Herrmann was a Herrmann enthusiast.Well that is undeniably true. Everybody should listen to the Unvarnished Chat with Bernard Herrmann. It gives a pretty clear picture of what the man was like. They don't make composer like that anymore. But Williams does have Herrmannesque traits in his scores. Minority Report, The Fury (Brian De Palma had directed the Obsession prior to this film and it had a Herrmann score which JW admired), parts of Dracula, the darker music of SW Prequels, parts of Nixon to name a few. Herrmann's influence is usually in the brooding darkness, suspence or the quirky bits of dark humour like Eye-Dentiscan from MR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muad'Dib 1,800 Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 I don't know if anyone has noticed it before (probably you have), but I always found "Escape from the City" particulary similar to the main theme from "Psycho". Those descending and quick notes are similar (helped by the xylophone in WOTW), but not the same. It's just an inspiration, in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hitch 57 Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 Don't forget 1:38 to 1:45 into the track "The Death Star / The Stormtroopers" from Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSM 120 Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 As I have said before, Williams' Jaws motiv in it's complete form (orchestration, tonality) has been lifted directly from Herrmann's 'Car Crash' from North By Northwest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ETMusic 1 Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 As I have said before, Williams' Jaws motiv in it's complete form (orchestration, tonality) has been lifted directly from Herrmann's 'Car Crash' from North By Northwest.I disagree. While both have an alternating half-step and some similarities in orchestration, the music is not "lifted directly." Also, the Jaws motif is so simple (and incredibly effective) that it can be found in MANY places; Dvorak's "New World Symphony" (4th movement), Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring", and several of Herrmann scores have all been cited as the 'original' source of the Jaws motif and yet NONE of them are identical. I'll concede some similarities between all of these pieces (oh look! an alternating half-step!), but claiming that the Jaws theme is plagiarism or was "lifted directly" has always felt like someone trying to find where John Williams 'stole' that idea from. I think there are WAY more similarities between Holst's "The Planets" and the score to "A New Hope" (not that these similarities detract my enjoyment of both).Also, I can't think of many film composers who have worked since Herrmann that have NOT been influenced by his work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,090 Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 If you like, you can also find a briefer version of the motif in an earlier Dvorak symphony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmo Lewis 6 Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 As I have said before, Williams' Jaws motiv in it's complete form (orchestration, tonality) has been lifted directly from Herrmann's 'Car Crash' from North By Northwest.I disagree. While both have an alternating half-step and some similarities in orchestration, the music is not "lifted directly." Also, the Jaws motif is so simple (and incredibly effective) that it can be found in MANY places; Dvorak's "New World Symphony" (4th movement), Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring", and several of Herrmann scores have all been cited as the 'original' source of the Jaws motif and yet NONE of them are identical.Howard Hanson also used it in his second symphony. But the "Adventures on Earth" similarity in the very same movement is more striking.I seem to remember Williams was in good terms with Herrmann is his final days. I read that he had dinner at Herrmann's house on an almost weekly basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hlao-roo 389 Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 I seem to remember Williams was in good terms with Herrmann is his final days. I read that he had dinner at Herrmann's house on an almost weekly basis.Slowly poisoning the older composer, no doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,053 Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 I believe there was a story that Herrmann was enamored with Williams' first wife, Barbara Ruick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Coscina 3 Posted November 9, 2009 Author Share Posted November 9, 2009 As I have said before, Williams' Jaws motiv in it's complete form (orchestration, tonality) has been lifted directly from Herrmann's 'Car Crash' from North By Northwest.I disagree. While both have an alternating half-step and some similarities in orchestration, the music is not "lifted directly." Also, the Jaws motif is so simple (and incredibly effective) that it can be found in MANY places; Dvorak's "New World Symphony" (4th movement), Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring", and several of Herrmann scores have all been cited as the 'original' source of the Jaws motif and yet NONE of them are identical. I'll concede some similarities between all of these pieces (oh look! an alternating half-step!), but claiming that the Jaws theme is plagiarism or was "lifted directly" has always felt like someone trying to find where John Williams 'stole' that idea from. I think there are WAY more similarities between Holst's "The Planets" and the score to "A New Hope" (not that these similarities detract my enjoyment of both).Also, I can't think of many film composers who have worked since Herrmann that have NOT been influenced by his work. I don't hear too much herrmann in from our friends at remote control/media ventures. I'm sure if they did try to lift herrmann he would get up from his grave and smite them all however Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wojo 2,453 Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 I believe there was a story that Herrmann was enamored with Williams' first wife, Barbara Ruick.So where's the movie score equivalent of "Layla?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koray Savas 2,251 Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 I believe there was a story that Herrmann was enamored with Williams' first wife, Barbara Ruick.So where's the movie score equivalent of "Layla?"You've got me on my knees... ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSM 120 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 As I have said before, Williams' Jaws motiv in it's complete form (orchestration, tonality) has been lifted directly from Herrmann's 'Car Crash' from North By Northwest.I disagree. While both have an alternating half-step and some similarities in orchestration, the music is not "lifted directly." Also, the Jaws motif is so simple (and incredibly effective) that it can be found in MANY places; Dvorak's "New World Symphony" (4th movement), Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring", and several of Herrmann scores have all been cited as the 'original' source of the Jaws motif and yet NONE of them are identical. I'll concede some similarities between all of these pieces (oh look! an alternating half-step!), but claiming that the Jaws theme is plagiarism or was "lifted directly" has always felt like someone trying to find where John Williams 'stole' that idea from. I think there are WAY more similarities between Holst's "The Planets" and the score to "A New Hope" (not that these similarities detract my enjoyment of both).Also, I can't think of many film composers who have worked since Herrmann that have NOT been influenced by his work.I know of course all the pieces you list (see also my separate thread on this very subject). The North By Northwest cue has by far the closest resemblance. This is the only example of an alternating E-F semitone and also the track with the orchestration most similar to the Jaws theme. Moreover, the track has been written in a time that JW was generally influenced by Herrmann's music.So I stand by my comment, and advise you to give it another listen. I think there are free audio samples on Amazon etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ETMusic 1 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 I know of course all the pieces you list (see also my separate thread on this very subject). The North By Northwest cue has by far the closest resemblance. This is the only example of an alternating E-F semitone and also the track with the orchestration most similar to the Jaws theme. Moreover, the track has been written in a time that JW was generally influenced by Herrmann's music.So I stand by my comment, and advise you to give it another listen. I think there are free audio samples on Amazon etc.No need for Amazon. I pulled out my disc of North by Northwest and listened to the cue. Furthermore, I pulled up my pdf scores of "Car Crash" from North by Northwest, the "Main Titles" from Jaws, and the "End Titles" from Jaws. In addition to the punctuations in "Car Crash", Herrmman's orchestration (all the woodwinds, violas, celli, and contrabasses) of the E-F is thicker than Williams (bassoons, celli, and contrabasses). Although a bit more subtle, Herrmann's cue is in 3/4 whereas Williams is in a duple meter (technically 4/4, but since the rhythm of the motif changes from quarter notes to eighths, duple meter describes it better). Finally, I think Williams treats the motif in a totally different way (e.g. the diminution of rhythm and addition of a lower D to the motif).You've the right to your opinion, but I think saying the "Jaws motiv in it's complete form (orchestration, tonality) has been lifted directly from Herrmann's 'Car Crash' from North By Northwest" is not true. To each their own. Once 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSM 120 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 I know of course all the pieces you list (see also my separate thread on this very subject). The North By Northwest cue has by far the closest resemblance. This is the only example of an alternating E-F semitone and also the track with the orchestration most similar to the Jaws theme. Moreover, the track has been written in a time that JW was generally influenced by Herrmann's music.So I stand by my comment, and advise you to give it another listen. I think there are free audio samples on Amazon etc.No need for Amazon. I pulled out my disc of North by Northwest and listened to the cue. Furthermore, I pulled up my pdf scores of "Car Crash" from North by Northwest, the "Main Titles" from Jaws, and the "End Titles" from Jaws. In addition to the punctuations in "Car Crash", Herrmman's orchestration (all the woodwinds, violas, celli, and contrabasses) of the E-F is thicker than Williams (bassoons, celli, and contrabasses). Although a bit more subtle, Herrmann's cue is in 3/4 whereas Williams is in a duple meter (technically 4/4, but since the rhythm of the motif changes from quarter notes to eighths, duple meter describes it better). Finally, I think Williams treats the motif in a totally different way (e.g. the diminution of rhythm and addition of a lower D to the motif).You've the right to your opinion, but I think saying the "Jaws motiv in it's complete form (orchestration, tonality) has been lifted directly from Herrmann's 'Car Crash' from North By Northwest" is not true. To each their own.Lifted is maybe saying too much. But agree that the cue resembles the Jaws theme better than the other examples, which are often called by people as 'source' of the jaws Theme? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ETMusic 1 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Lifted is maybe saying too much. But agree that the cue resembles the Jaws theme better than the other examples, which are often called by people as 'source' of the jaws Theme?To that I will agree. I have always felt that all the examples mentioned earlier were simply too different to really be a 'source' for the Jaws Theme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSM 120 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Lifted is maybe saying too much. But agree that the cue resembles the Jaws theme better than the other examples, which are often called by people as 'source' of the jaws Theme?To that I will agree. I have always felt that all the examples mentioned earlier were simply too different to really be a 'source' for the Jaws Theme.Exactly. I think this is actually the point I wanted to make Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabulin 3,505 Posted March 30, 2020 Share Posted March 30, 2020 Some commentators and podcasters highlighted that Parade of the Ewoks is supremely jolly. But is it completely innocent? . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 11,957 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 On 11/7/2009 at 12:30 AM, Nick Parker said: He did love Sibelius, and he also loved Elgar, too. Also, I have stated this before, but it was Bernard Herrmann who prompted John Williams to write his first symphony. He was also the one who made JW feel insecure about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,385 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 The only two Williams scores where I feel like there's a definite Herrmann presence, are THE FURY and THE WITCHES OF EASTWICK (primarily the "Devil's Dance"). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabulin 3,505 Posted April 7, 2020 Share Posted April 7, 2020 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oomoog the Ecstatic 314 Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 On 3/30/2020 at 1:32 PM, Fabulin said: Some commentators and podcasters highlighted that Parade of the Ewoks is supremely jolly. But is it completely innocent? That's actually creepy when you think about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabulin 3,505 Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 . ROTS - Be careful of your friend JttCoE - Explosion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,385 Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 I also forgot to point out earlier that although Williams admired Herrmann deeply, he was not that fond of PSYCHO. There's an interview quote from the 80s, if memory serves, where he is critical of that score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 11,957 Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 I bet that's merely backlash for his symphony. MikeH and Thor 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabulin 3,505 Posted May 8, 2021 Share Posted May 8, 2021 Elmer Bernstein (!) talks about Herrmann's repeating opening motif from Cape Fear. . publicist 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,283 Posted May 9, 2021 Share Posted May 9, 2021 If Herrmann had an influence in Williams then probably to come up with something archaic like the main theme for Jaws. To me that is rather a Herrmann type of musical idea, than typical Williams. But very well anticipated. And of course it is still Williams' own idea, but might be influenced by Herrmann's way of scoring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 11,957 Posted May 9, 2021 Share Posted May 9, 2021 Well, strictly speaking it's Dvorak's idea. Joni Wiljami and GerateWohl 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,283 Posted May 9, 2021 Share Posted May 9, 2021 What exactly? I am interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabulin 3,505 Posted May 9, 2021 Share Posted May 9, 2021 Okay, maybe Dvorak for the opening, but then the bassline piano from the second movement of the Scythian Suite: And the tuba / later clarinet line from the main motif in Herrmann's cantata "Moby Dick" And some more appropriate Herrmann: And voila: Dvorak, Prokofiev, Herrmann + Williams: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 11,957 Posted May 9, 2021 Share Posted May 9, 2021 2 hours ago, GerateWohl said: What exactly? I am interested. GerateWohl 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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