Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's (Philosopher's) Stone

[Pieter Boelen 740]

I listened to a good chunk of my set this evening, and noticed one thing: any time the music is meant to be scary or dramatic, it's ruined by 'playful' or 'comical' touches such as woodwinds/xylophone, and in the case of Face of Voldemort, to be absolutely frank, completely ruins it.

I must agree that when I read this, the first thing I thought of was indeed KotCS's "Jungle Chase".

I listened to it again only yesterday and was surprised to find how silly it all sounds.

While it sounds good in a way, it just doesn't engage me as much as the previous Indiana Jones' action music.

My favourite part of Jungle Chase, namely the Desert Chase march style ending is wasted by the silly music interspersed with it.

Admittedly, there's an obvious reason for that in the movie -the exciting chase itself IS interspersed with silly stuff- but that doesn't improve matters.

But even outside the obvious silly stuff, it seems that the music just can't take any of the movie seriously,

which is most unfortunately because that means it becomes very hard for me to take the movie itself seriously either.

And again I'll admit that the Indiana Jones movies aren't ACTUALLY serious -they're entertainment, after all-, but at least the prior ones took themselves seriously.

The third one maybe not so much, but at least enough to not wander off into... well,

I suppose I'll have to agree with Michael that KotCS IS more of a parody than a serious fourth installment in the Indiana Jones series.

In fact, I'd be inclined to say that Jerry Goldsmith's King Solomon's Mines sounds overall more serious than KotCS.

And that movie IS a parady (maybe not intended as such, but it is nonetheless). And the music reflects that.

While there's the same sense of adventure that Indiana Jones has, it's clear to me that Jerry Goldsmith saw the humour of what's going on in there.

Which is fine for that movie, but not fine for a movie with "Indiana Jones" in the title; I expect something more from that.

I wonder if a lot of the perceived mistakes with KotCS can be traced to Steven Spielberg's apparent unhappiness with the subject matter.

From what I read and especially from what I saw on the bonus DVD, he was never truly convinced on the whole aliens angle.

And never was I. And I still am not. Big mistake, that.

Anyway, that as a complete and utter aside. The music to Harry Potter and the Philisopher's Stone is really very good!

[Richard Penna 3,687]

Oh I love the score as a whole (HPPS). It's just JW's touches during those action sequence that make me wonder what he was trying to achieve.

And yeah, I get the impression Spielberg wasn't impressed by Lucas' aliens ideas. And neither am I. Aside from the film's bad execution, the story has to be one of the least interesting I've ever come across.

[King Mark 3,631]

It's a kids movie,remember .He can't make the scene sound too horrifying

[Richard Penna 3,687]

Doesn't need to be horrifying, just serious and dramatic. He fails both to my ears.

[King Mark 3,631]

well he doesn't fail for everyone else..what else can I say

[Incanus 5,714]

Doesn't need to be horrifying, just serious and dramatic. He fails both to my ears.

Of course we hear these things differently and here I disagree. The final setpiece is the strongest of the whole score. And it is certainly not plagued by the xylophone hits (not as much as certain JW and Goldsmith scores). Xylophones are not my favourite instrument either. Sometimes they appropriately punctuate a particular orchestral accent with their bright and sharp tones but sometimes they sound just annoying (anyone who has heard a street musician playing xylophone on the streetcorner knows how silly and funny the instrument sounds on its own, no matter how skilled the player, not matter what is played on it. It can put a smile on your face though just because of its silliness).

What style of woodwinds aggravate you in this particular piece?

Do you mean the swirl of brass, harp, strings, chimes and choir that begins at 5:22 and ends about 5:40?

I think it is a great moment which offers a ballet like gesture (could be accused of Mickey Mousing but hey if the music follows the action closely it is bound to Mickey Mouse) where Voldemort's theme rises one final time as does his spirit and flees the scene. The entire track is so well choreographed, the thematic gestures and counterpoints so well thoughtout. It just flows extremely well dramatically in my opinion.

The interplay of the three "evil" themes, the Philosopher's Stone motif, Voldemort's theme (the slithering string melody) and the You-Know-Who theme (the brassy, deep and threathning theme) is wonderful and there is certainly enough malevolence and threath in the music for a children's movie. The Philosopher's Stone motif receives obsessive repetition, the goal and desire of Voldemort, as he seeks to have it no matter the cost and Voldemort's own themes slither away in a false calm for a moment, the music very slow and almost seductive until it bursts into action. Williams quotes Hedwig's theme as a general hero's motif amoung these evil themes and Harry's Family theme appears as Voldemort's temptation is voiced, Harry's hope of seeing his mother and father again rekindled for a moment.

The racuous chaotic music for destruction of Quirrel is to my mind very appropriate, injecting the obsessive and oppressive readings of the Philosopher Stone music into the orchestral conflict and finally resolving the battle in a deep brass variation of You-Know-Who theme as Quirrel is disintegrated. Then comes the swirling orchestral cloud where Voldemort's last gasp of rage is unleashed in the form of Voldemort theme on brass and intensely rising orchestral tumult as we see his spirit fleeing. The piece closes with a great dramatic touch, Hedwig's theme on clarinet to signify Harry's victory as close call as it may have been, but that is intercepted by an eerily cold version of the Philopher's Stone motif when we see it lying in his open palm. The conflict is not over yet, Voldemort still lives. Even though the theme is not specifically Voldemort's it is eerie enough to express this. Williams of course uses this music later in Chamber of Secrets as a general purpose Evil/Danger motf but here it is still reserved mostly for the Philosopher's Stone.

And I have always regarded Harry Potter and the Philospher's Stone as a rather colorful and innoncent sort of children's movie. To my ears the music seems to follow that line of thinking. There are some areas where Williams goes for suprising darkness (Gringott's Vault for example) but over all he maintains a spirit of magical and good natured adventure. The mood is very close to Hook and Home Alone scores with all the childish silliness it entails. The action music, despite xylophones and swirling string motifs that may have become staple in later JW scoring, is extremely thematic and well thought-out and engaging. If a person does not have stomach for Williams' mannerisms then HP is very unbearable as it is littered with them.

On another note in the modern movie scoring, and this reflects on JWs action music, kinetic propulsion has become paramount, the sheer push the orchestra gives to the images, the sense of pulse and forward motion. To simulate this sense of "speed" Williams has developed certain techniques that he employs very often these days and it has earned him the ire of film music fans. Williams has always been a balletic kind of composer, prefering to near Mickey Mouse the action, provide a bed of sound which supports these feats and action rather than ploughing through them with something that might relate to the scene at hand but go on its own tangent most of the time and not have some many specific sync points. These choices are up to the composer and the director really.

It is very evident that Williams has become extremely economic with his thematic writing in the action setpieces since he would have to maintain speed and sense of rapid progression and long lined melodies are not suited for this so well. And I am talking about the pure rhythmic propulsion here. Williams still injects melody at key moments (e.g. in Quidditch Match or Jungle Chase) but the propulsive constructs that might have been more melodic or longer lined before have become economically short. On the other hand Williams masks thematic statements or disperses the themes so that the brass might inject a couple of notes here and another there. E.g. Jungle Chase has numerous moments where Irina's theme forms the action motif for sections of the scene but the statements are not direct but more like off-shoots from the main melody and work as the rhythmic propulsion while hinting at thematics. And sometimes Williams builds an entire action piece around a small motivic cell and while it provides propulsion for the scene, some might not consider them a very engaging, satisfying or energizing listening experience.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

To al people critisizing JW williams using xylophone, and KOTCS.

Just stop a moment, listen to 'Mine Car Chase', and then rethink what you said.

[Incanus 5,714]

To al people critisizing JW williams using xylophone, and KOTCS.

Just stop a moment, listen to 'Mine Car Chase', and then rethink what you said.

Manuel I think most of the detractors are refering to its use in JW's modern action style where it is more pronounced. He has certainly used it before the Aughties in his music.

I do not find it as a large a sin as others but there are moments where I think he could have accented an orchestral hit with something else.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

still mine car chase is vey mickey mousing, has a lot of wicked xylophone passages.

it does not transmit 'tension' for a dangerous scene where the protagonists are or the verge of dying in a lava pit.

Oh wait that was not intended, as it is an indiana jones movie.

Sorry, the 80's are is some elevated shrine that is well deserved, but it makes people lose criteria and all newer things (Williams speirlberg or Lucas) is by definition WAY WAY lesser. And it is more painful when you see a supposed 'fault' pointed out in a newer work that was already present in the old works.

[Incanus 5,714]

still mine car chase is vey mickey mousing, has a lot of wicked xylophone passages.

it does not transmit 'tension' for a dangerous scene where the protagonists are or the verge of dying in a lava pit.

Oh wait that was not intended, as it is an indiana jones movie.

Indeed. Indiana Jones movies were never that serious. Hero always survives and even though there might be tension and even a threat of death it is always balanced out by the knowledge that he finds a way out of it. Mine Car Chase certainly goes more for the zaniness than tension. A wild ride.

[Elmo Lewis 6]

still mine car chase is vey mickey mousing, has a lot of wicked xylophone passages.

it does not transmit 'tension' for a dangerous scene where the protagonists are or the verge of dying in a lava pit.

Oh wait that was not intended, as it is an indiana jones movie.

Sorry, the 80's are is some elevated shrine that is well deserved, but it makes people lose criteria and all newer things (Williams speirlberg or Lucas) is by definition WAY WAY lesser. And it is more painful when you see a supposed 'fault' pointed out in a newer work that was already present in the old works.

That scene is not about tension or fear, it's about thrills and excitement. Is this difficulty at 'getting' scenes why you buy Lucas' intentions every time?

[Pieter Boelen 740]

The Mine Car chase indeed doesn't create much serious tension, but it's fine in that case, I reckon.

After all, there's been morbid terror (The Temple of Doom) before and then some fairly serious action (if you don't count the heroics) in Underground Chaos.

Then again afterwards, the music becomes fairly serious in The Bridge, especially the part where Indiana fights Mola Ram.

I feel that with such a surrounding amount of relative seriousness, The Mine Car chase works brilliantly as a tension breaker inbetween.

I do agree that the Indiana Jones movies aren't truly serious, but I think it's doing them a disservice to say there's nothing resembling seriousness in there.

Especially if you consider, for example The Desert Chase, from the first Indiana Jones movie.

As entertaining as that is, it is very light on the comedy and the music reflects that to make for a very exciting and serious scene.

IS it serious? Of course not; these films remain popcorn entertainment. But it's possible to at least take it seriously.

But then in my mind, the first three Indiana Jones movies constitute what must be the best film series there is.

I love adventure films, especially well-made ones that are entertaining, have a sense of humour, but don't degenerate into outright silliness.

The exception is films that go so far into silliness that I can't help but laugh, such as King Solomon's Mines.

But again I suppose I'm one of the few people to actually be vastly entertained by the movie also.

[publicist 4,643]

And it is more painful when you see a supposed 'fault' pointed out in a newer work that was already present in the old works.

But it wasn't. Williams wrote very coherent action music, then.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

still mine car chase is vey mickey mousing, has a lot of wicked xylophone passages.

it does not transmit 'tension' for a dangerous scene where the protagonists are or the verge of dying in a lava pit.

Oh wait that was not intended, as it is an indiana jones movie.

Sorry, the 80's are is some elevated shrine that is well deserved, but it makes people lose criteria and all newer things (Williams speirlberg or Lucas) is by definition WAY WAY lesser. And it is more painful when you see a supposed 'fault' pointed out in a newer work that was already present in the old works.

That scene is not about tension or fear, it's about thrills and excitement. Is this difficulty at 'getting' scenes why you buy Lucas' intentions every time?

I know... i was sarcastic...

Neither is Jungle chase, that was the point.

(this parts is another post, not an aswer to Elmo's.)

Both KOTCS film and score are just a natural progression in the series nothing broken appart, and definately Jungle chase is rather structured and thematic coherent action cue. If you get confused trying to follow the scenes, i cant help there. I wasn't

[Elmo Lewis 6]

Do you think The Jungle Chase is musically coherent?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Hardly.

[Richard Penna 3,687]

Definitely not.

[Incanus 5,714]

Do you think The Jungle Chase is musically coherent?

What constitutes a musically coherent action piece? Please tell me. I am interested. And please no snide "If you do not know what musically coherent action piece is, then I can't help you." style remarks but an actual explanation what in your opinion makes up this coherence. Please.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

i just heard the asteroid field.

THE HORROR!

[Datameister 2,042]

I do agree that the Indiana Jones movies aren't truly serious, but I think it's doing them a disservice to say there's nothing resembling seriousness in there.

Especially if you consider, for example The Desert Chase, from the first Indiana Jones movie.

As entertaining as that is, it is very light on the comedy and the music reflects that to make for a very exciting and serious scene.

IS it serious? Of course not; these films remain popcorn entertainment. But it's possible to at least take it seriously.

Exactly. This is part of why Raiders will always be my favorite Indy film by far. It's funny without being silly - and the music rarely plays up the comedy angle. Film scores rarely should. Raiders is a dead-serious score, with the exception of stuff like "Escape in the Alleys" (AKA "The Basket Game"). But even that cue has a weird, subtly grim sort of overtone to it, and it gets very serious at the end.

Regarding "The Jungle Chase", it remains quite a mixed bag for me. There are some very good musical ideas in there, especially the 3/4 ostinato in the last cue. That's a very vicious, serious, downright awesome motif right there. And the monkey music is actually quite charming, I think, even though the scene is annoying. It's just the overall construction that is lacking. Williams used to write action cues that so clearly conveyed the emotional content of the action in novel, interesting, straightforward ways. In recent times, his action music has tended to focus mostly on conveying that "chaotic tension", typically by layering a lot of elements in very advanced ways. Sometimes you just need a simple, brilliant idea, you know?

Be that as it may, I do enjoy a fair amount of Williams' modern action music. It just gets a little old when he starts using the same old tools over and over again, and it never quite gets to its old level of excellence.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

What constitutes a musically coherent action piece? Please tell me. I am interested. And please no snide "If you do not know what musically coherent action piece is, then I can't help you." style remarks but an actual explanation what in your opinion makes up this coherence. Please.

A piece of music that maintains consistency throughout its run while flowing through many different ideas is considered coherent. Many little ideas cohere to form a consistent well identified piece of music.

Flow is a not an adjective that can be applied to "The Jungle Chase."

Just listen to its first 30 seconds. It's schizophrenic.

Compare to the first thirty seconds of "The Battle of Yavin" note how well the ideas flow into each other just within 30 seconds.

That is an example of cohesion vs. lack of cohesion.

[Datameister 2,042]

I actually wouldn't cite those thirty seconds of "The Battle of Yavin" as an example of cohesion. There's no single idea that unifies those passages any more than in "The Jungle Chase." What the former does have, however, is a sort of elegant simplicity. Transparency. You can tell exactly what sort of emotion Williams is going for at any given point, and he uses relatively simple (though not necessary obvious) musical ideas to get there. There's a straightforward directness to it. With the first thirty seconds of "The Jungle Chase" (after the initial statement of Irina's theme), you've got a baffling panoply of harmonically complex, quickly moving lines. It's more difficult for the brain to extract that sort of immediate emotional clarity out of the music. They're not random notes...I'd argue that it takes more skill and training to write that passage than the one from ANH. But I'd also argue that the passage from ANH is vastly superior when it comes to actually listening to the thing.

Now, if you want cohesion, I would look elsewhere in ANH - specifically at "Here They Come" or "TIE Fighter Attack" or whatever you want to call it. All the action music is totally dominated by a small set of discrete musical ideas that get combined in different ways. Very, very cohesive.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

They're not random notes...I'd argue that it takes more skill and training to write that passage than the one from ANH.

I think that's bullshit. I expect a throw everything maybe even the kitchen sink at it approach from an amateur, not from someone trained and highly skilled.

John Williams simply misses the mark with that track. 50% of the volume of notes are simply unnecessary. If you want to see a volume of notes used skillfully with a sign of how much training Williams has, look at Hedwig's Theme. Not "The Jungle Chase."

The Jungle Chase is lacking in cohesion period, largely due to the sheer amount of non-sense packed into it.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Are we judging the crap edit in the OST or the full cue of Jungle chase?

[Datameister 2,042]

Looks like you missed my point, Blume. I agree that 50% of the notes are unnecessary. Again, to be clear, I think the example from ANH is better music, better film scoring, etc. Williams did a better job with that. All I'm saying is that I don't think it required as much knowledge and experience as the passage from KOTCS, simply because the latter is so much more complex. That doesn't make the music better; I'm just saying.

Here's an analogy that may help. Let's say you build two houses. The first one has an innovative but elegant design. It's bold and beautiful and brilliant without being terribly complex. The second one is extremely complex and detailed, with weird needles and spikes and blobs poking out in different directions. Not random directions, mind you - turns out this building is actually based on a very complex mathematical model that dictates how different parts of it fit together. It's way uglier than the first building, even though it required a lot of knowledge that the first one didn't require.

EDIT: Luke, unless I'm mistaken, we're talking about the OST version, so what we're really talking about is the first thirty seconds of the cue "Irina's Great Blade."

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Which is the middle of the piece.

'Launch from the fourth moon' should be compared with 'They werent you honey'

Which is, i think a rather structured and thematically rich passage. And like the ANH cue, the starting of the build-up of the cue.

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

You're missing the best of The Jungle Chase if you're hearing the OST...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPtHnSjZNLo&feature=related

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

and even that edit is missing some bits

[Datameister 2,042]

"The Jungle Chase Begins" indeed starts off stronger, IMO. The first 18 seconds are excellent. Williams more or less delivers one of those emotionally straightforward musical ideas with the strings, and even though the brass gets in there with some stereotypical 2000s Williams action rhythms, it's still pretty effective. Marion's theme gets a new, powerful treatment. But it's not too long before the music starts descending into the same sort of emotionally opaque stuff we've been talking about.

I do want to make it clear, however, that I'm aware that Williams has been an extraordinary master of harmonically difficult stuff for decades. His stuff from the 70s and 80s had plenty of weird, advanced, dissonant stuff in it. But he used it in a way that was a lot more accessible and...punchy.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

My attention starts to waver in a lot of the post 2000 JW action music. Technically it is brilliant. But I feel uninvolved.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

OK, I think we need to have a come to Johnny Williams meeting regarding simplicity vs. complexity and the level of skill required for each.

It's often incorrectly assumed that an end result that is complex in appearance must certainly require a greater amount of skill to create, when in fact it's the exact opposite. Things that are complex in final appearance are often times the result of patience and repetitive work. If you're willing to put the time in, you can create anything that seems very complex at the end.

If you're into writing music, ask yourself what's easier to write: an elegant love theme, or a rousing action piece? Most composers would probably say the rousing action piece is easier, because in western music we have an expectation for more notes, more things going on. Putting together an elegant love theme requires far more mental work on the part of the creator than matching lots of notes together with each other bar after bar. One is a truly difficult task, the other is a time-consuming task.

My stance on this is as follows: If I can write a program to do it, then it is not a skill-taxing task. 8 years ago I wrote a simple program that given a base melody could create permutations upon permutations of ornamentation for it, by merely assigning basic rules of harmonics and rhythm. But I could not write a simple program to create the core melody of Hedwig's Theme.

On the other hand, the most simple in appearance end products are some of the most astoundingly complex behind the scenes, and some of the most challenging to put together.

This is why, to bring it back to architecture, I.M. Pei's work is some of the most simple and elegant (in final appearance) in the realm of architecture. Ask any of the engineers that had to construct something like the the Louvre Pyramid, and you'll see what the cost of that simplicity was.

No, The Jungle Chase is not technically impressive. It's the work of a man who had no other projects that year. Lots of time.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

In the later stage of his career Jerry Goldsmith learned how to do more with less. Herrmann was also a master in creating something from nothing.

[Datameister 2,042]

Fair enough. I don't contest the fact that "simple" music of the sort Williams used to write requires an enormous amount of skill. Saying a lot with a few notes is no mean feat.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

The last Jerry goldsmith action cues sounded also very similar between movies. That example does not serve.

Isnt the crystall skull theme rather simple?

It is not fair to compare an action piece with a main theme (hedwigs ) either.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I'm talking about the period of around roughly 1990 till his death.

[Datameister 2,042]

The skull theme is very simple, and pretty effective as far as I'm concerned. It doesn't come anywhere near, say, the Ark theme, but that has nothing to do with simplicity or complexity or anything. It's just that...intangible quality that makes a theme great or not so great. The skull theme is somewhere between those extremes, IMO. Leaning more toward "great."

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Right now I can't even recall it.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Just because it's simple doesn't mean it's great. My argument was about the thought something simple requires. Nor is complexity bad. You can put little thought and talent in simplicity and get Hand Zimmer. You can put all work into complexity and get Jungle Chase.

Or you can put a lot of thought in the simple side, expound upon it with hard work to get complexity and land on Hedwigs Theme, a master piece.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Life's a lottery, be lucky!

[Datameister 2,042]

Just because it's simple doesn't mean it's great. My argument was about the thought something simple requires. Nor is complexity bad. You can put little thought and talent in simplicity and get Hand Zimmer. You can put all work into complexity and get Jungle Chase.

Or you can put a lot of thought in the simple side, expound upon it with hard work to get complexity and land on Hedwigs Theme, a master piece.

I can hardly argue with that!

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Oh and 1:36 in the YouTube video sounds like "Attacking A Star Destroyer"

[publicist 4,643]

The last Jerry goldsmith action cues sounded also very similar between movies. That example does not serve.

Why does that contradict what he said? Goldsmith's action writing became rather generic after BASIC INSTINCT (caused mainly by the potboiler nature of the films he scored in rapid succession), but when someone knew how to organize action music, it was Goldsmith. In that department, i just don't know who could (or can) hold a candle to him (certainly not post-80's Williams).

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Oh and 1:36 in the YouTube video sounds like "Attacking A Star Destroyer"

definately not Williams' post-2000 writting then??

[MrJosh 892]

I am sorry if this has already been discussed (I scanend through the thread looking for it)...

Does anyone know where the tracked statement of 'hedwig's theme' during the cue "You're a Wizzard, Harry" (in the film) comes from? I've listened to the RS like 3 times now and I must be missing it. In the film, the whole middle of the cue is dialed out, and the first half is 'ended' with this tracked statement.

Curiosity is killing me! Thanks in advance.

[Datameister 2,042]

That's "Potter Logo Version 1." Sounds like there's a bit of low strings underneath it, too...no idea where that's from. Maybe it's synthesized.

[Taikomochi 1,136]

I haven't been able to keep up with this thread so I'll just ask: Why is is called "Hedwig tries a cookie"? Is this in the film? If so, why is it listed with the children's suite? I am at a loss.

[Datameister 2,042]

The current hypothesis is that it was actually entitled "Hedwig Tries a Cokie", meaning a Coke, because it was apparently written by Williams for a Coca-Cola ad.

[Taikomochi 1,136]

Oh cool! I renamed it as "Coke Ad" for my iPod, but then felt stupid when I read it was "cookie" not "coke". I guess that wasn't too far off.

[Jay 37,359]

Here is the ad in question (or at least a 30second version of it)

[Charlie Brigden 7]

Been listening to some of this. The score makes a much bigger impression in film order (and obviously complete). I wouldn't currently throw it in JW's top five or even ten, but it's a lot better than I used to think.