Jerry versus John

[Quintus 5,391]

I've just been listening to Star Trek: The Motion Picture and First Contact, both in 320kbps and the brass just blew me away, its incredible. The experience naturally led me to compare it to Williams brass greats like Star Wars, it's sequels and rather surprisingly, E.T., where the brass (in a score mainly remembered for its strings) soars even higher than the ballsy brass of the aforementioned SW work. Which leads me to realise again that recording quality plays a substantial role when enjoying and comparing music, but said recording quality isn't by any means final - I for one adore the pretty terrible (by today's standards) sound quality of the Jaws score, particularly where the brass is concerned.

So what do you think? Which composer had the greater skill, in terms of writing for brass?

Note the lack of "They're both equal", "Can't decide" options. That's because fence-sitters don't get an option in my [for fun] polls. If your answer isn't included then simply don't vote

[Charlie Brigden 5]

Goldsmith. Just listen to the TOTAL RECALL main titles. Amazing work (and great percussion too, another one of Jerry's skills). Even on something like the theme from The Waltons, his brass work is clearly masterful. And I just can't give enough love to TMP.

[Greg1138 2]

I have had the pleasure of playing many pieces by both composers and, from a Trumpet player's point of view, there is only one answer - it's Williams all the way.

[Luke Skywalker 1,284]

Brass instrument or the whole metal wind family?

I vote John 'Brassy Fanfares' Williams.

Anyway, I'm voting him in all the polls except the one that is about the synthetizer...

[Datameister 1,394]

If I couldn't listen to one of these fine composers' excellent brass writing for the rest of my life, I'd have to ditch the Goldsmith stuff. He wrote some insanely great material, but I could never get rid of Williams' work. That's how I decide in these very evil sorts of polls.

[Quintus 5,391]

Brass instrument or the whole metal wind family?

Trumpets, Trombones, Tubas, Horns, all that lark.

I'd have to ditch the Goldsmith stuff. He wrote some insanely great material, but I could never get rid of Williams' work. That's how I decide in these very evil sorts of polls.

The main thing is you get the tone of such polls.

[JoeinAR 1,759]

Having been to a Williams music concert lacking adequate brass you realize just how much he relied on it.

[King Mark 2,924]

Here's one for Goldsmith. The opening trumpets (or horns?) in Main Titles from The Final Conflict on the re-mastered c.d. I've never heard anything quite like that.

[indy4 152]

Yeah, those are horns in The Final Conflict.

I love the trombone rendition of the main theme in "The Hunt."

[Diego 21]

I have to go with Johnny.

[artyjeffrey 20]

Just think of all the great brass moments in Temple of Doom...

[BLUMENKOHL 1,064]

Trumpets = John.

Tuba, Trombone, Sax, Horns = Jerry.

[indy4 152]

Saxes are woodwinds, not brass.

[AC1 3,565]

Jerry was good but John is supernatural.

Alex

[Joe Brausam 203]

Not to mention they are very rarely used in any film score unless for solos, as they are not a standard orchestral instrument.

And, also, as a horn player myself, I have to give the brass vote to John - especially for his horn parts.

[Sergeant 1,093]

Jerry was good but John is supernatural.

And, also, as a horn player myself, I have to give the brass vote to John - especially for his horn parts.

[indy4 152]

I love how John Williams used a horn in a jazz band in Checkmate.

[Greg1138 2]

That is not a new idea, but it is an effective one.

Here's one for Goldsmith. The opening trumpets (or horns?) in Main Titles from The Final Conflict on the re-mastered c.d. I've never heard anything quite like that.

Simple writing, great unison playing (not easy), thunderously effective.

[Sandor 459]

Am I the only one getting a bit tired of "John vs. Jerry" debates?

[AC1 3,565]

Well, we were all tired of it years ago but now it's in again. In fact, it's very good that you wrote "John vs. Jerry" and not "Jerry vs. John".

Alex

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

Since this Forum is biased anyway, I do not see the point.

[Luke Skywalker 1,284]

Curious, because i am amazed at how unbiased it is. Some days it hard to believe one is in a John Williams Fan Network.

Did you realize for example, that King Mark voted Goldsmith?

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,476]

We need some ultimate examples from both composers posted here.

[Luke Skywalker 1,284]

Nobody wants to be banned.

[Charlie Brigden 5]

We need some ultimate examples from both composers posted here.

John - The Battle of Yavin

Jerry - Leaving Drydock

[Ollie 859]

Since this Forum is biased anyway, I do not see the point.

Well I expect the votes to go in favor of Williams. But in all honesty, there's not much that seperates the two. Every argument I could make for Williams I could do the same for Goldsmith

That's why I'm going to take the coward route and refrain from voting.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,476]

I did not vote, cannot choose one over the other.

JW is my favorite composer/musician, but I cannot deny the greatness of JG.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

I will support Jerry to the death!

[Quintus 5,391]

I know we've had a million of these vs threads, but I was sort of thinking that by making it a little more specific it would lead to some good examples being posted and well, give us something to talk about.

[Trent B 317]

Kind of a toughy but definitely Jerry was more natural for brass.

[Uni 306]

We need some ultimate examples from both composers posted here.

You're on the right track here. It's the tangibles that decided me on this one. Both composers wrote brilliant music for every section of the orchestra, but when you think about what Williams did with the brass in particular--Indy's boulder run in Raiders, for instance, or Johnny's magnum opus for the brass section, "Summon the Heroes"--I just have a hard time imagining Jerry penning their equal. Gotta go with Williams on this one.

Am I the only one getting a bit tired of "John vs. Jerry" debates?

This sort of thing isn't hotly contested enough (at least, not in this thread) to be called a "debate." What we have here is a Jerry/John comparison, which is perfectly valid. Comparing and contrasting is the best way to evaluate and appreciate different artists' work.

In fact, it's very good that you wrote "John vs. Jerry" and not "Jerry vs. John".

Actually, the latter is more appropriate, since the "home team" is usually listed second, and this being JWFan. . . .

- Uni

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

In Football, the Home Team is always listed first!

[Charlie Brigden 5]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLfM1DzJEgI

[AC1 3,565]

I'm sorry but it's Thor vs. The Destroyer, Thor vs. Loki, Thor vs. ...

Alex

[Quintus 5,391]

Actually, the reason I put Jerry first is because he will always be the underdog, on this board, and after just listening to his music before creating the thread, I felt he fully deserved top/first billing.

[Luke Skywalker 1,284]

In Spain we have a saying:

"El burro delante para que no se espante"

[Quintus 5,391]

You call Jerry Goldsmith a donkey! You better get to cover, fast

[Maglorfin 195]

For me, it's JW. Of course Goldsmith did an outstanding job on many a soundtrack, but John's brass work on complete Star Wars saga and Superman alone is enough to convince me.

[Luke Skywalker 1,284]

You call Jerry Goldsmith a donkey! You better get to cover, fast

i knew that was going to be misinterpreted....

[Quintus 5,391]

Bloody foreigners!

Here's one for Goldsmith. The opening trumpets (or horns?) in Main Titles from The Final Conflict on the re-mastered c.d. I've never heard anything quite like that.

I have and it's Goldsmith again - his opening brass in The Shadow is even better than those heard in The Final Conflict, imo. Much better.

[mahler3 353]

This should be a no-brainer, it's not however that easy. Goldsmith did some incredible brass writing, other than what's been mentioned MacArthur, Patton, Night Crossing, Supergirl, The Mummy and the Fireworks concert work are perfectr showcases (even some of the scores he recorded with poor orchestras highlighted what Joe mentioned re the importance of brass sections flawnesness)

I'll echo what Uni stated ref Raiders, the brass writing /playing is second to none throughout! Williams does have the edge, if you compare some of the aforementioned with the below brass-heavy Williams cues i'm sure you will agree there really is no comparison:

Mina's Death / Finale from Dracula (shame about the shite sound quality)

T-Rex Rescue & Finale from Jurassic Park (the last 2 minutes or so with the high pitched trumpets are fantastic)

Adventures On Earth from ET

Battle of Hoth / Cloud City Escape from TESB

Sail Barge Assault (both versions) / Forest Battle from ROTJ

Never Feast / Remembering Childhood / Ultimate War from Hook

Re-Entry from Spacecamp

Riot @ the USO / Invasion from 1941

Chasing Rockets from Superman

Final Battle from Star Wars

The Visitors from CE3K

Gillian's Escape Head Explosion from The Fury

The Flag Parade / Pod Race from TPM

Meeting in Sicily from Monsignor

Opening Battle from ROTS

Approaching the Summit from The Eiger Sanction (just needs a bigger brass section)

and then there's the countless stunning French horn solos he's written and the concert works, like Celebration Fanfare, I Love A Parade, and American Journey

[skyy38 21]

50/50

Apples and Oranges

Context and Relevance

What if Jerry Goldsmith had scored "Star Wars"?

What if John Williams had scored "Star Trek"?

[David Coscina 3]

It depends on what you are looking for. If it's virtuosic performances and sections that really cover all ranges and styles of what brass instruments can do, I would say the clear winner is Williams. Goldsmith wrote some amazingly great stuff in the '60s and 70's, but started to decline in terms of outright virtuosity in the late '80s early '90s after Total Recall. Williams has continued to compose challenging parts for brass players.

While I like the sound of big unison brass parts, like The Final Conflict, I don't think it's a reflection of how adept a composer is at writing for that choir group from the orchestra. Goldsmith used a lot of those big unisons for his streamlined style in the '90s. Mulan, The Edge, The Mummy are a few notable examples. I honestly prefer his atonal or dissonant use of the brass in things like "New Friend" from Papillon with the fluttertongued parts in the brass creating an astringent sound. Or the powerful pedal point trombones in "Hanging On" from First Blood.

A really fine example of tremendous brass writing is Alex North's Spartacus. I would say the opening credits is probably one of the most impressive examples of the full brass choir. My thoughts.

This is a very relavent thread for me personally as I'm working on a film score where I'm eschewing strings and winds in favor of brass, percussion and celesta. So I've been going over a variety of examples of terrific brass writing in concert music and Williams definitely has come up amidst the likes of Bartok, Stravinsky, Mahler and Prokofiev.

[Demondm810 349]

T-Rex rescue and Finale is all I need.

[ST-321 4]

The Planet Krypton. Advantage Williams.

[Datameister 1,394]

"The Planet Krypton" asserts Respighi's supremacy, not Williams'. To gauge Williams' skill with the brass, look no further than "The Rolling Ball" and "Hogwarts Forever." For totally different reasons, of course.

[Morn 7]

Revenge of the Sith and Indiana Jones 4. Amazing brass. As good as Goldsmith is, Williams edges ahead.

[publicist 4,484]

This is a very relavent thread for me personally as I'm working on a film score where I'm eschewing strings and winds in favor of brass, percussion and celesta. So I've been going over a variety of examples of terrific brass writing in concert music and Williams definitely has come up amidst the likes of Bartok, Stravinsky, Mahler and Prokofiev.

Virtuosic or not, there is a reason such demanding stuff has all but vanished from scoring today. There is a reason why later Goldsmith scores overflow with clean unsion horn writing while he was doing duty on routine films - although he clearly could do much more challenging things with them, as you noted. 'Complicated music' isn't in big demand, anymore...except maybe in horror stuff.

[Morn 7]

Complicated music isn't in big demand any more??? More like composers aren't daring and brave any more.

With a few exceptions, say Goldenthal, sometimes Giacchino.

[Maxxie 1]

I think they're both marvellous, but I would have to pick Jerry for this one simply because of his powerful work on The Mummy, Air Force One, Star Trek etc.