I love John Williams' music but I'm a little shocked

[David Coscina 3]

I always loved how active the wind writing was on the cue "Tink Arrives & Flight to Neverland" but after hearing Stravinsky's Firebird Suite today, I'm a little miffed at how closely Williams' cue resembles parts of the Firebird. It's not the tempo, it's actual phrases and motives as well as the same ornaments on pivotal notes. I don't know whether Spielberg temped this part of the film with the Firebird or what but the similarities are a little unsettling to me. I also found a nice lift from Korngold's Sea Hawk in "Hook-napped".

I still love HOOK don't get me wrong but some of what I loved about it has been tinged with a little disappointment in the realization that it's not wholly Williams' genius. It's Igor's and Erich's too!

[Datameister 2,041]

Yeah, the resemblance is very strong. I was familiar with "The Firebird" years before I heard Hook, so the similarities immediately jumped out at me.

[crocodile 8,000]

What parts are you referring to? So I can take a closer looka at it.

Karol

[Red 75]

No offense, but that's not exactly a new discovery. I love "Firebird" and see the similarities, but it doesn't change my affection for Hook or that track.

[Datameister 2,041]

Much of "The Arrival of Tink" is very Stravinsky, crocodile. It REALLY starts shortly before the one-minute mark. It's not so much that Williams copied exact phrases - it's an intelligent but direct adaptation of some of the styles Stravinsky explored in the first half of "The Firebird." (I can't speak to the structure of the suite; I have the full ballet.)

By the way, if anyone else hasn't heard "The Firebird", I would strongly recommend it to any Williams fan. It's a very evocative work...sounds almost like a really good film score. And it has one of the best endings to any piece of music...ever.

[crocodile 8,000]

Much of "The Arrival of Tink" is very Stravinsky, crocodile. It REALLY starts shortly before the one-minute mark. It's not so much that Williams copied exact phrases - it's an intelligent but direct adaptation of some of the styles Stravinsky explored in the first half of "The Firebird." (I can't speak to the structure of the suite; I have the full ballet.)

By the way, if anyone else hasn't heard "The Firebird", I would strongly recommend it to any Williams fan. It's a very evocative work...sounds almost like a really good film score. And it has one of the best endings to any piece of music...ever.

I can hear what you mean now. But then again it's nothing new. Given the fact film music was born at the beginning of the last century it is not surprising, really. Stravinsky is all over Williams and Goldsmith. Jaws, Omen, First Knight and Star Wars, to name the few, are all inspired by his music.

Karol - who likes Stravinsky very much

[Datameister 2,041]

For sure. This is by no means the only place Stravinsky has been borrowed from, and it's probably not a bad thing - he was just that good. I think Williams could have been a little more subtle in this case, but it's not the end of the world. And it may have been a case of "temp love" that he had no control over.

[crocodile 8,000]

The simplest explanation would be it was subconcious thing. I doubt it was ever in the temp.

Karol

[Datameister 2,041]

We may never know if they temp tracked any Stravinsky, but I don't see why it's unlikely. He wrote plenty of material that would have fit perfectly, and even if it wasn't used, I doubt Williams was totally unaware that what he was writing was Stravinsky-like. Subconscious borrowing probably isn't usually so...direct.

[crocodile 8,000]

We may never know if they temp tracked any Stravinsky, but I don't see why it's unlikely. He wrote plenty of material that would have fit perfectly, and even if it wasn't used, I doubt Williams was totally unaware that what he was writing was Stravinsky-like. Subconscious borrowing probably isn't usually so...direct.

What I'm saying is that film music as an art form pretty much comes from this era. As does modern concert music. It is this kind of writing that begun it all. Stravinsky was one of the most (if not the most) influential composers in the 20th century. That's why I think it has more to do with his overall heritage than actual usage in the film as a temp. The same goes for Holst's Planets.

Karol

[Datameister 2,041]

Perhaps.

[Elmo Lewis 6]

I always loved how active the wind writing was on the cue "Tink Arrives & Flight to Neverland" but after hearing Stravinsky's Firebird Suite today, I'm a little miffed at how closely Williams' cue resembles parts of the Firebird. It's not the tempo, it's actual phrases and motives as well as the same ornaments on pivotal notes. I don't know whether Spielberg temped this part of the film with the Firebird or what but the similarities are a little unsettling to me. I also found a nice lift from Korngold's Sea Hawk in "Hook-napped".

I still love HOOK don't get me wrong but some of what I loved about it has been tinged with a little disappointment in the realization that it's not wholly Williams' genius. It's Igor's and Erich's too!

You might want to keep away from Mussorgsky's "Ballet of the Unhatched Chicks" from Pictures at an Exhibition, then.

[Morlock 11]

God, you scared me for a minute there. That cue isn't even one of my top 15 favorites from the score.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

John Williams does this all the time.

[Andy 4,119]

I am actually often envious that some of you have a musical education and an awareness of classical that allows you to appreciate things on a different level. But I think this is one of those times when "ignorance is bliss", and it's better to appreciate a composer's work completely as their own.

But I know where you're coming from. I always felt a little disappointed to hear that the miniaturization scene from Innerspace was temp tracked with Randy Newman's The Natural. I honestly never made the connection, but now that I know, it does take away a bit of the admiration I had for Goldsmith's writing. Just a little bit, mind you, but still...

It's sorta like finding out your girlfriend's old love letters were copied from someone else's.

[King Mark 3,631]

I don't care. Williams probably improved the music that inspired the cue

[Datameister 2,041]

"The Firebird" is pretty freaking good...I'd have hard time calling that material in Hook better.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

No amount of clapping will bring JW back from where he'll be sent for this.

[gkgyver 1,645]

John Williams is a hack.

[Ollie 1,059]

Actually Williams "borrows" quite a bit in Hook. Dave Grusin for "Banning Back Home" and Delerue's Agnes Of God for "You Are The Pan", if I'm not mistaken.

[Andy 4,119]

I love Banning Back Home. Which Grusin work is similar?

[David Coscina 3]

John Williams does this all the time.

like you'd know. Name me another classical piece Williams rips off smart guy

[gkgyver 1,645]

That's a bad idea ... he can just google it

[Delorean90 42]

We played Firebird in orchestra something like three times this school year (totally agree with Datameister's comments--it's a must for anyone who likes rich, robust orchestral film music--it makes me want to make a film of it), and that passage stuck out to me as being a strong inspiration for that spot from about 0:50-1:00, but I think once you get there, even the stuff that's reminiscent of the ballet has seriously been brought into a more specifically Williams language, and it's a much less aggressive sound, more spritely.

I find that every time some classical snob tries to give me an example of how Williams is a lame composer because he "rips off" or "steals from" everyone before him, the example is blown way out of proportion. For the longest time I'd heard about how the Dvorak "Dumky Trio" has the main theme from E.T., and it had seemed so conclusive. I finally heard it, and I just went, "Seriously?" I'm amused/annoyed that everytime I've asked someone to give an example of his unforgivable pilfering, they say, "Well, look at 'The Imperial March'--it's Holst!" Geez...if we're gonna call The Imperial March a "Mars" rip-off, then we're going to have to be fair and call every dark, militaristic orchestral piece after Holst a rip-off. It's silly.

I'd have much more respect for the argument if they at least pulled out some stuff that's fairly close--like Strauss's Death and Resurrection-->"Love Theme from Superman" or the third movement from Hanson's Symphony No. 2-->E.T. bicycle searching/chase music. (The Hanson is the best argument I've heard so far). But even then, he always manages to make it his own. And it's not like it didn't happen with the greats. Listen to Koussevitzky's Bass Concerto and then listen to Rachmaninoff's Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini and see if you don't hear anything that sounds a bit familiar.

[Datameister 2,041]

it's a must for anyone who likes rich, robust orchestral film music--it makes me want to make a film of it

Well, there IS the jaw-dropping final segment of Fantasia 2000, which uses an edited version of the 1919 suite as a backdrop for an epic tale involving the spirit of spring, an elk, and a literal "fire bird." Brilliant recording, and brilliant animation. Gives me shivers.

[Delorean90 42]

It was pretty good, but it had been a while since I had seen the Fantasia 2000 segment, and when I revisited it after playing the full 1919 suite, I was immensely disappointed at the cuts that were made--especially the introduction. When I hear it, I can totally imagine an opening credits sequence playing over shots moving through Katschei's realm.

[Datameister 2,041]

Ah. Yeah, that edited version of the suite is great until you listen to the whole ballet and realize how freaking awesome the whole thing is.

[Delorean90 42]

The worst part is that they don't just omit sections, but the Infernal Dance is microedited to bits. ARGH! You're right. So many great moments missing. I need to grab the recording of Stravinsky conducting the whole ballet--it's like $7 on Amazon.

[Datameister 2,041]

Well, I actually don't care that much for the middle section of the Infernal Dance. Although the edit bothers me more nowadays, I still understand completely why they took it out - it kinda contradicts the sinister atmosphere that the start and end of the section create.

[indy4 155]

John Williams does this all the time.

like you'd know. Name me another classical piece Williams rips off smart guy

Jeez, calm down. He wasn't attacking you.

[Delorean90 42]

Hmm...yeah, I guess you're right. Doesn't make it any less jarring for me, though.

EDIT: LOL. That was for Datameister.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

John Williams does this all the time.

like you'd know. Name me another classical piece Williams rips off smart guy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xj6xSyl-lgw

Sound familiar?

[John Takis 206]

I'm pretty sure the "Firebird" reference was a deliberate inside joke, what with Tinkerbell's visual appearance in her introductory scene. Something for the musically literate to smile and nod at. Just my two cents. I think he meant us to "get" the Rossini reference in POA for similar reasons ("magpie" can mean "a noisy, chattering person").

[Hlao-roo 389]

I don't know who this Stravinsky dude is, but he should sue!

[Bowie 45]

IMHO Williams is best when he's not ripping other composers off, anyway -- and I don't mean his concert works. I mean his epic leitmotif flourishes and concert suites... full of that certain bubbling sentimental Americana that is distinct to Williams. It all works so well because he's the master of crafting the "perfect" theme, something I don't even think Stravinsky was as good at.

[Sandor 797]

This sort of thing is so common in the history of all music that I don't see why people make such a big deal out of it. Williams composed a lot of music that is 100% fullblood Williams that the occasional reference to another composer's work doesn't shock me in the slightest sense. I've always thought the Firebird inclusions during the Tinkerbell sequence were deliberate, and musically and thematically it makes sense too. I think it's Williams way of putting humor to his music.

[publicist 4,643]

This track is pretty unlistenable chaotic stuff, anyway.

[TownerFan 4,983]

I'm pretty sure the "Firebird" reference was a deliberate inside joke, what with Tinkerbell's visual appearance in her introductory scene. Something for the musically literate to smile and nod at. Just my two cents. I think he meant us to "get" the Rossini reference in POA for similar reasons ("magpie" can mean "a noisy, chattering person").

Absolutely correct, my friend. I couldn't have said it better.

[Uni 306]

I don't know whether Spielberg temped this part of the film with the Firebird or what but the similarities are a little unsettling to me.

Spielberg doesn't temp his movies. Why would he? He's got the greatest film composer on the planet in his back pocket.

I think it's funny how this discussion still comes up on this board every now and then. The same points are made (on both sides), the same conclusions reached. It's simply a reality, not only in music but in every art form. The way people express themselves "originally" through music, writing, drawing or painting, moviemaking, and so on is a conglomeration of learned technique, stylistic influence, and the innate compunction to build upon what others have established. That doesn't make it plagiarism. It's just how it's done.

- Uni

[Ollie 1,059]

I love Banning Back Home. Which Grusin work is similar?

I can't find the reference but it's the one cue that feels completely out of place on the score. It doesn't sound anything like Williams. Over the years quite a few people have remarked about the similarity to Grusin.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

John Williams does this all the time.

like you'd know. Name me another classical piece Williams rips off smart guy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xj6xSyl-lgw

Sound familiar?

Surely that was forced by the director, since its a popular cue to use in christmas films. In fact it is so close...that Williams may had in mind an arrangement of the classical piece, not a rip off...

he tried to use an original cue for HA2, and the director forced him again to use the cue from the first movie.

There is sometimes that temp tracking maddness is so hard into the directors minds that even john williams cannot say 'no'. He still orchestraes them making them his own.

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

("Holiday Flight")

Sound familiar?

Yes! It's "The Adventures of Mutt"!

No wonder why the theme doesn't seem to fit the character, in my opinion...

[David Coscina 3]

I love Banning Back Home. Which Grusin work is similar?

I can't find the reference but it's the one cue that feels completely out of place on the score. It doesn't sound anything like Williams. Over the years quite a few people have remarked about the similarity to Grusin.

Actually the track reminds me of some of Grusin's On Golden Pond with the rhythm section and chord voicings in particular.

Indy4, the reason I responded that way to Koray is that I dislike the arrogant tenor of his one-liner. I didn't start this thread to knock down Williams- I was just surprised at the similarity in the phrases and ornaments. I always thought Goldsmith was far more influenced by Stravinsky and Bartok but I do hear them in Williams' music too.

I attribute this mostly to Williams' fantastic knowledge of classical music repetoire. I hear Prokofiev in Alex North too and I have mad love for his music so it's not that I'm going to throw out all of my Williams or North collections because they graze across a classical reference.

I also agree with the forum member who said that Williams' strongest stuff is his original material anyhow.

NP- Symphony #4, Sergei Prokofiev

[pro-arte 22]

Actually, in Poltergeist, You have on the early scenes that have a portion of the same kind of music ... Don't forget the power of the producers on the film industry, they decide how the films should sounds...

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

All composers are pirates. We kill pirates.

[Uni 306]

Actually the track reminds me of some of Grusin's On Golden Pond with the rhythm section and chord voicings in particular.

Y'know, I never would've spotted that if you hadn't brought it up . . . but now that I compare the two mentally, you're absolutely right. Different tempos (obviously), completely varied moods, yet the resemblance is undeniable.

[Please note--this is in no way a comment on the virtues or vices of "Banning Back Home." I'm just complimenting Angel on a great catch.]

- Uni

[A24 4,331]

I always thought Goldsmith was far more influenced by Stravinsky and Bartok but I do hear them in Williams' music too.

Weren't you surprised with how much the desert music of Star Wars (The Little People) resembles music from Stravinsky's Le Sacre du Printemps?! I know I was! I still love it though. It's even better!

Alex

[Bowie 45]

For those keeping score, only the end part of Aunt Marge's Waltz really takes its cue from The Thieving Magpie, although I'm fairly certain it was a deliberate nod encouraged by a temp track. The rest is just spiritually similar. Meanwhile, The Thieving Magpie rips off just as much if not more from Mozart and various late Classical/early Romantic composers anyway.

[Datameister 2,041]

Oh, there's no doubt Aunt Marge's Waltz was an intentional homage. I figured it was an intentional homage to a piece from that period before I'd even heard "The Thieving Magpie."

[crocodile 8,000]

Oh, there's no doubt Aunt Marge's Waltz was an intentional homage. I figured it was an intentional homage to a piece from that period before I'd even heard "The Thieving Magpie."

Which was in fact confirmed by the liner notes from the soundtrack album.

Karol