Average composers who surprise you with a single outstanding score.

[Erik Woods 555]

I'll try finding Nanny Mc Phee 2 to give it a listen if it turns up somewhere

Nooooooooo... stay away! Not Howard's finest hour!

-Erik-

Bill Conti :Masters of the Universe (I guess I can add The Right Stuff)

I've been enjoying MOTU lately. Isn't Conti highly regarded for North and the South and the Karate Kid scores? I haven't heard them myself. Are they any good, or is MOTU and Right Stuff as good as Conti gets?

I mentioned F.I.S.T. earlier on. Bloody brilliant score. Unfortunately, the Varese Club release is sold out!

-Erik-

Sorry I can't agree that Reign of Fire can be argued to be a great score. I checked that one out after Sky Captain and thought it sucked as a listening experience.

Well, I for one think that Reign is a magnificent score and plays wonderfully - however, I will say that you have to be in a certain mood for that type of angry, dissonant music. But it's an incredibly well written score and is a lot more thematic and melodic than some people give it credit for! I think fans of Elliot Goldenthal's work will really appreciate it!

-Erik-

[Jacob 0]

I love Dragonheart but I haven't heard anything else from Randy Edelman that comes close.

Granted I haven't looked too hard...

Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story was phenomenal (film and score).

- Uni

I'll have to check it out...

.

How about Harry Gregson-Williams: Narnia- The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe. At least the first half, before it descends into MVness.

I'll match your Narnia, and raise you Sinbad and Kingdom of Heaven.

[ChuckM 1]

I'll match your Narnia, and raise you Sinbad and Kingdom of Heaven.

Sinbad definately. Kingdom of Heaven doesn't do much for me though. It pretty much sounds like a repeat of Narnia.

[Jacob 0]

There is an unmistakable similarity, especially in some of the action music.

Narnia's The Battle and Heaven's Battle of Kerak both even share an identical intro for the first few seconds.

But overall, each score gives me too much of a different vibe to consider one a repeat of the other.

Kingdom of Heaven is rather heavy and gritty whereas Narnia is much more adventurous and fantastical, as it should be.

And considering that they're both 2005 films I'm not even sure which could be considered guilty of borrowing from the other.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I'll try finding Nanny Mc Phee 2 to give it a listen if it turns up somewhere

Nooooooooo... stay away! Not Howard's finest hour!

-Erik-

Haha, I just received my CD in the mail today. I know it isn't particularly good, but I got it for completion's sake.

I'll match your Narnia, and raise you Sinbad and Kingdom of Heaven.

Sinbad definately. Kingdom of Heaven doesn't do much for me though. It pretty much sounds like a repeat of Narnia.

Kingdom Of Heaven was before Narnia, and it's without a doubt Harry's best score.

All of his stuff with Tony Scott and John Powell are superb as well.

[Morlock 11]

Let's take this seriously, guys. Now then:

Hans Zimmer - Crimson Tide

Hehehe.

Too generous.

How about Harry Gregson-Williams: Narnia- The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe. At least the first half, before it descends into MVness.

That came after 3-4 really good HGW scores, and was the last time I bought a HGW album. I'm not a fan. Sinbad and Kingdom of Heaven are absolutely fantastic (Neither particularly MV).

I've been hard on JNH recently, but the guy's got a hell of a lot terrific work to his credit.

I personally couldn't stand Shearmur's Sky Captain, but thought his Count of Monte Cristo score is terrific. Shows a real Goldenthal influence, which is never a bad thing.

How about Clint Mansell with Requiem for a Dream? I thought that Moon and Sahara were fine (especially for someone who can't read or write music), but I don't get some of the hype about him.

I agree on Grusin and The Goonies. To be honest, this and The Firm are the only Grusin scores I've experienced that did not harm the movie.

I second Randy Edelman. Dragonheart has some really fantastic melodies.

@KM:

Michel Legrand is a fantastic composer. I don't think I've ever seen a film scored by him that where I did not enjoy the score. Mainly his earlier work in France (My Life to Live, Bay of Angels, Lola, The Umbrellas of Cherbourg), but also The Thomas Crown Affair and The Three Musketeers. His original score for The Man Who Loved Cat Dancing is also good, better and far mroe interesting than JW's.

Clint Eastwood may have a good score in his past...but it ain't the maudlin Million Dollar Baby. The Unforgiven is a good score, though the hellish basses at the end are probably Niehaus' work.

I of course disagree about both Shore and Desplat (Benjamin Button is one of his less impressive scores to my ears).

My own addition, probably a controversial one, would be Maurice Jarre, for Lawrence of Arabia. I honestly can't stand most of the scores by the late Mr. Jarre. His descent into horrible synths didn't help anything. I like a couple of cues from Witness and Dead Poets Society, but that's about it. Lawrence of Arabia is a gobsmackingly amazing score, one of the absolute greatest scores ever, practically perfect in every way. And I quite like his work on The Man Who Would Be King. But there's nothing else that comes even close to the heels of Lawrence.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Clint Mansell has been pretty damn fantastic lately. Morlock, I suggest you listen to The Fountain, which is easily his best score.

[Erik Woods 555]

My own addition, probably a controversial one, would be Maurice Jarre, for Lawrence of Arabia. I honestly can't stand most of the scores by the late Mr. Jarre. His descent into horrible synths didn't help anything. I like a couple of cues from Witness and Dead Poets Society, but that's about it. Lawrence of Arabia is a gobsmackingly amazing score, one of the absolute greatest scores ever, practically perfect in every way. And I quite like his work on The Man Who Would Be King. But there's nothing else that comes even close to the heels of Lawrence.

Tai-Pan is my person favorite Jarre score. I find there is more variety in it than in Lawrence. But Lawrence is indeed magnificent and I can't wait for Tadlow's complete re-recording coming later this year. There are dozens of other outstanding Jarre scores as well so I don't think it's right to see his name in this "average composers" thread.

-Erik-

Clint Mansell has been pretty damn fantastic lately. Morlock, I suggest you listen to The Fountain, which is easily his best score.

Great score indeed!

-Erik-

[Morlock 11]

I have The Fountain, and I regard it much as I do the movie. To me, they're both pretencious grandiosities that ultimately mean absolutely nothing. It's nice for a couple of minutes, than gets boring as hell. New agey nonsense that I can understand being enraptured in, but doesn't work for me.

[Marian Schedenig 8,173]

Score-wise (the movies are too different for me to just compare them), I couldn't put Fountain above Requiem, or vice versa.

[crocodile 7,984]

I have The Fountain, and I regard it much as I do the movie. To me, they're both pretencious grandiosities that ultimately mean absolutely nothing. It's nice for a couple of minutes, than gets boring as hell. New agey nonsense that I can understand being enraptured in, but doesn't work for me.

I agree completely. It is pleasant to listen to but that's it.

I'd add Mark Isham's The Black Dahlia to the list.

Karol

[Erik Woods 555]

I'd add Mark Isham's The Black Dahlia to the list.

Karol

Isham is not an average composer and has written a handful of excellent or outstanding scores. Miracle, Fly Away Home, A River Runs Through It, October Sky, Eight Below...

-Erik-

[ChuckM 1]

I'd add Mark Isham's The Black Dahlia to the list.

I would agree with that one.

[Uni 306]

Isn't Conti highly regarded for North and the South and the Karate Kid scores? I haven't heard them myself. Are they any good, or is MOTU and Right Stuff as good as Conti gets?

North and South is a gorgeous score, certainly one of his best. The Karate Kid is great in places--the wood flute, for example, and "Training Hard" (when Daniel's trying to figure out the crane technique on his own), which is one of Conti's finest cues ever--but it's underarranged, and falls lazily back on synths too often.

JNH's 'Dave' has a pretty well developed theme, plus The Fugitive. The end credits to Big Trouble is fantastic.

I don't quite get the hostility toward JNH either. I'm not as familiar with his works as I am with other composers', but the more I listen to him the more impressed I become. Dave is absolutely a great score with a great theme. The Fugitive worked very well in the film. I'm still getting to know Dinosaur, but I find it a very worthy effort.

Sorry, I don't find ANYTHING by Alan Silvestri outstanding except for BTTF. (Some are pretty good, but not outstanding.)

The Abyss was nearly as good. It had an epic dynamic that BTTF couldn't achieve (only because the movie didn't allow for it, of course). And Romancing the Stone kicks ass. Totally different than most scores, though it fit the movie perfectly and is a gem among Silvestri's early works.

I do think the conversation here's gone wide of the mark. Silvestri, Rosza, Conti, Jarre . . . these aren't "average" composers. They're big names. I think the original intent was to point out rare high points in the careers of composers who're hardly ever heard from again. Craig Safan is an excellent example. Cliff Eidelman (if you liked STVI) is another. Some others (Edelmen, Isham, Jones) are borderline, but only because they don't have the names and reputations of Williams/Goldsmith/Horner and the like. It's an interesting discussion, but doesn't really help answer the original question.

- Uni

[Richard Penna 3,671]

I'd add Mark Isham's The Black Dahlia to the list.

I would agree with that one.

I wouldn't.

A River Runs Through It

Eight Below

Racing Stripes

Of Mice & Men

October Sky.

Just some of his more mainstream scores that I enjoy. There's also stuff like Next, Crossing Over and Lions for Lambs which are lesser known but I think are still good.

I might also suggest George S. Clinton's Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee. It's his only project attractive enough to make me pay attention.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Fire in the Sky too.

[crocodile 7,984]

I'd add Mark Isham's The Black Dahlia to the list.

Karol

Isham is not an average composer and has written a handful of excellent or outstanding scores. Miracle, Fly Away Home, A River Runs Through It, October Sky, Eight Below...

-Erik-

I'd add Mark Isham's The Black Dahlia to the list.

I would agree with that one.

I wouldn't.

Isham is a fine composer and some of his scores are really admirable, but, come on, none of them is really outstanding. And that's what this thread is about.

Karol

[Erik Woods 555]

Actually, Karol, this thread is about AVERAGE composers who surprise us with a single outstanding score.

Isham is

1) NOT an average composer.

2) Has written other outstanding scores beside THE BLACK DAHLIA such as FLY AWAY HOME, A RIVER RUNS THROUGH IT, MIRACLE, and EIGHT BELOW.

-Erik-

[King Mark 3,625]

I think your a bit too generous as what you view as outstanding .

Outstanding means they'd be holy grails if they were unreleased for example

[ChuckM 1]

I think your a bit too generous as what you view as outstanding .

Outstanding means they'd be holy grails if they were unreleased for example

If that's the case, perhaps I used a bit too strong of a word for the thread title, lol. I just mean really good scores. Terabithia, for example, technically is unreleased still, but I don't think anyone here holds it to be a "grail" of film music. It's just really good and unlike most of Zigman's other scores.

[Uni 306]

I think your a bit too generous as what you view as outstanding .

Outstanding means they'd be holy grails if they were unreleased for example

If that's the case, perhaps I used a bit too strong of a word for the thread title, lol. I just mean really good scores. Terabithia, for example, technically is unreleased still, but I don't think anyone here holds it to be a "grail" of film music. It's just really good and unlike most of Zigman's other scores.

Agreed. "Outstanding" need only mean it was a score that surpassed anything else that particular composer ever did, something that could possibly rate as a classic of sorts in its own right. But a "holy grail?" Nah. Raise the bar too high, and we can't talk about "average" composers any more, which would defeat the purpose.

- Uni

[Wojo 2,453]

People's personal biases really come to light in discussions such as these.

[tharpdevenport 4]

For a long time, Mists of Avalon was the only score by Holdridge I knew. Over the last few months, I picked up three more of his CDs, and they're all very good. Some even outstanding.

If you, or anybody else here doesn't have the sold out Intrada "In Search of Peace", track it down -- well worth it.

I listened to a few samples by Safan, but so far nothing has grabbed me like "Remo Williams: The Adventure Begins..." has.

Frizzell is another composer I only heard a handful of samples from and not enjoyed any of them (I also heard a lot of "Alien: Resurrection", and did not like any of it). So far I have only liked -- and it's a personal favorite of mine -- his score to "Office Space", though I suspect listening to "Beavis & Butthead Do America" apart from the film, will find me with a second. And I recall liking what I heard from a brief watching of an episode he scored for "Enterprise" ("Proving Ground", I think was the episode).

All the big, bombastic scores by David Arnold that everyone praises, I have not enjoyed at all, and I didn't like his softer side either ("Amazing Grace"). So far all I could get into (and I mean aside from the famous theme) has been "Stargate". I've found random composers on MySpace that had plenty of more enjoyable cues. I jsut visited today a website of a composer who has satarted working with Christopher Young, and he had some good stuff on his music player; random cues from various styles, and still vastly more enjoyable than "Goidzilla", for example.

Billy Goldenberg. Aisde from "Duel", I aquired some more scores by him recently, and did n't enjoy any of them -- they were just bland, uninspiring, and ... just didn't care for them. Won't comment on his TV work for "Columbo as I never got to the fake "Film Music" promo, and it's been so long since the series was in re-runs on TV I can't recall any of the scoring.

Apart from "Lawrence of Arabia", I have yet to find another score -- on the whole -- that I like by him. Part of "Ghost" (the orchestral parts, not hte gratting, pointless electronic parts) and "Almost An Angel".

That's all for now.

[indy4 155]

People's personal biases really come to light in discussions such as these.

Isn't any conversation about art an attempt to justify a personal bias?

[crocodile 7,984]

Exactly.

Actually, Karol, this thread is about AVERAGE composers who surprise us with a single outstanding score.

Isham is

1) NOT an average composer.

2) Has written other outstanding scores beside THE BLACK DAHLIA such as FLY AWAY HOME, A RIVER RUNS THROUGH IT, MIRACLE, and EIGHT BELOW.

-Erik-

Alright, to each his own. I don't find Isham to particularly distinctive composer. I like some of his music (I like Crash, for example), but only The Black Dahlia screamed "awesome!" at me. And that's all. I don't try to discredit him, but these are my personal feelings towards his music. And that's all I we can ever be doing here, right?

Do The Red Canvas count? I can't really tell, since it is the only thing I know from this composer. And yes, this score is outstanding. At least as a piece of music.

Karol

[mahler3 478]

Dave Grusin's Havana is a lovely score with a goregous theme that's deserves attention, On Golden Pond is charming, also Tootsie which is crying out for a CD release!

Like others, i'm really surprised that JNH isn't appreciated as much as he should be. In my eyes (and ears) he was the strongest voice in the 90's when it came to the action cue:

Wagon Chase from Wyatt Earp

Little Resistance / Ceder Creek Exodus from Outbreak

Escaping the Smokers / Smokers Sighted / Sky Boat from Waterworld

Restored US / Postman from The Postman

Stairway Chase from The Fugitive

End Title from Alive

Race Begins / Last Push from Hidalgo (ok I know it's from 2004 but it's worthy of special mention!) Atlantis & Treasure Planet also had some terrific action cues.

There's many others and not necessarily action orientated from the 90's, cues from Devil's Advocate, Prince of Tides, Restoration, Sixth Sense, Junior, Dave etc.

Erik's right about Mark Isham, he's behind some great work. Even the dismal Don't Say A Word had a very effective score. Racing Stripes is one of my favourites, a great finale!

Bill Conti's North & South is well worth the expensive purchase, Books 1 & 2 from Varese are just superb! The 1985 LSO recording also on Varese is maybe good as a sampler as it can be found very cheaply.

- Tim

My own addition, probably a controversial one, would be Maurice Jarre, for Lawrence of Arabia. I honestly can't stand most of the scores by the late Mr. Jarre. His descent into horrible synths didn't help anything. I like a couple of cues from Witness and Dead Poets Society, but that's about it. Lawrence of Arabia is a gobsmackingly amazing score, one of the absolute greatest scores ever, practically perfect in every way. And I quite like his work on The Man Who Would Be King. But there's nothing else that comes even close to the heels of Lawrence.

You should seek out his Abbey Rd CD Jon, he employs the Royal Phil for many of his synthesized scores and it works far better, especially for the Building the Barn cue from Witness.

- Tim

[Richard Penna 3,671]

People's personal biases really come to light in discussions such as these.

I've seen people 'admit' stuff in threads like this that they don't seem to dare speak elsewhere.

Actually, the more I think about it, it doesn't make sense - are we all trying to maintain some 'street cred', and admitting that we've never listened to a classic score is somehow punishable?

Personally I've stopped caring about that stuff. I like what I like and can't always explain why.

Like others, i'm really surprised that JNH isn't appreciated as much as he should be. In my eyes (and ears) he was the strongest voice in the 90's when it came to the action cue

Honesty time again: I don't like some of JNH's action music. The Race Begins for example has one of the most predictable and melodically simple openings I've ever heard. I'm an even lesser fan of The Trap and Montage. I like the score when it's using strings and wind instruments, but when he gets out the brass and percussion and hammers out simplistic structures, he loses me.

So that's one thing I like - unpredictability. If I can listen to a new piece of music, and predict the notes as they come then that piece doesn't satisfy me.

I also think he's occasionally guilty of the odd orchestration blunder when it gets heavy. Treasure Planet, Jim Saves the Crew, when the final statement of the 'heroic' theme crashes in we're exposed to the theme played on very high strings and my ears tell me that there's something missing from the foreground of the mix.

I consider JNH's finest work to be for M. Night. Thank god Beltrami was thrown off 6th Sense

[Morlock 11]

You should seek out his Abbey Rd CD Jon, he employs the Royal Phil for many of his synthesized scores and it works far better, especially for the Building the Barn cue from Witness.

I'm sure I'd prefer it, but in general, I don't like his sensibility. My problems with his music is similar to my aversion to much of John Barry's work (though I like a lot more from Barry).

[ChuckM 1]

Honesty time again: I don't like some of JNH's action music. The Race Begins for example has one of the most predictable and melodically simple openings I've ever heard. I'm an even lesser fan of The Trap and Montage. I like the score when it's using strings and wind instruments, but when he gets out the brass and percussion and hammers out simplistic structures, he loses me.

So that's one thing I like - unpredictability. If I can listen to a new piece of music, and predict the notes as they come then that piece doesn't satisfy me.

If predictability is a problem, then Goldsmith is one of the worst composers out there.

[Richard Penna 3,671]

I'm not Goldsmith's biggest fan.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I like what I like and can't always explain why.

I'm the same. I can like something like El Cid for I don't know why, and not like any other Golden Age scores.

[John Crichton 4]

It's so amusing reading this thread- for every name that's mentioned someone will come up with 3 or 4 other scores that they love. Subjectivity is fun.

[Ollie 1,059]

I'm still waiting to see some average composers with outstanding scores. So far only a few have been mentioned.

[John Crichton 4]

I was tempted to say Shore myself, only because I haven't gotten into anything of his outside LotR. But LotR is so amazing it's unfair to call the man that wrote it average.

[Ollie 1,059]

Had Chuck titled the thread "Composers I Find Average With A Single Oustanding Score", then it would make more sense.

I think everyone has gone off track with his original intentions.

[King Mark 3,625]

Edit:wrong thread

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I think you are in the wrong thread, Mark.

[King Mark 3,625]

oops

[John Crichton 4]

There's a lot of similarities in thematic statements in FotR, but in the next two scores they get worked out and varied quite nicely.

[steb74 53]

Edit: moved response to the correct thread

[Wojo 2,453]

In Search of Peace is awesome. I just listened to it today. I even enjoy the vocal track.

[Marian Schedenig 8,173]

If you, or anybody else here doesn't have the sold out Intrada "In Search of Peace", track it down -- well worth it.

That was my second Holdridge. I then picked up Into Thin Air and the awesome Gerhardt-conducted compilation.

[mahler3 478]

Had Chuck titled the thread "Composers I Find Average With A Single Oustanding Score", then it would make more sense.

I think everyone has gone off track with his original intentions.

Mmmmm fair point! Got a bit defensive with JNH didn't I?!

Ok I would have to say David Shire's Return to Oz is an exception to his otherwise average scores IMO.

Others that spring to mind are Shaun Davey's Taylor of Panoma and George Martin's Live & Let Die

- Tim

[Romão 2,274]

Had Chuck titled the thread "Composers I Find Average With A Single Oustanding Score", then it would make more sense.

I think everyone has gone off track with his original intentions.

Mmmmm fair point! Got a bit defensive with JNH didn't I?!

Ok I would have to say David Shire's Return to Oz is an exception to his otherwise average scores IMO.

Others that spring to mind are Shaun Davey's Taylor of Panoma

- Tim

That's a good one. I'm not familiar with Davey's other work, but I love his score for the Tailor of Panama

[Erik Woods 555]

Ok I would have to say David Shire's Return to Oz is an exception to his otherwise average scores IMO.

What about The Taking of The Pelham 1,2,3.

Others that spring to mind are Shaun Davey's Taylor of Panoma

Excellent choice. I was just about to list that one after spinning it yesterday!

-Erik-

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Ok I would have to say David Shire's Return to Oz is an exception to his otherwise average scores IMO.

What about The Taking of The Pelham 1,2,3.

What about Max Dugan Returns?

[Marian Schedenig 8,173]

Ok I would have to say David Shire's Return to Oz is an exception to his otherwise average scores IMO.

What about The Taking of The Pelham 1,2,3.

Indeed. Two very different, quite awesome scores.

[Uni 306]

If predictability is a problem, then Goldsmith is one of the worst composers out there.

Well, I'd stop short of "worst" anything in Goldsmith's case . . . but I'd have to agree that he does use quite a bit of patterned music (what in another thread we're calling "filler" music).

I listened to a few samples by Safan, but so far nothing has grabbed me like "Remo Williams: The Adventure Begins..." has.

One of the very reasons I listed Safan as an average composer with a single great score is the fact that all his scores sound exactly the same. The theme from Remo sounds just like the theme from The Last Starfighter. You know without any doubt it's the same composer. The difference is that Starfighter is far and away the superior score--the single instance (to my knowledge) that his particular sound and style fit the project beautifully. Remo is a simplistic, pedestrian work that sounds like studio contract work.

- Uni

[Charlie Brigden 7]

Goldsmith is as predictable as Williams.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

John Williams - Star Wars.

Basically this was a thread for King Mark to vent every composer in Hollywood.