Average composers who surprise you with a single outstanding score.

[Ollie 1,059]

Goldsmith is as predictable as Williams.

I would go so far as to say Williams was/is more predictable than Jerry.

I will admit Goldsmith's latter years were filled with predictable music but so is JW's. When Jerry was in his prime from the 60's to the early 90's, he was very unpredictable.

[King Mark 3,631]

John Williams - Star Wars.

Basically this was a thread for King Mark to vent every composer in Hollywood.

that's not true...but I have to go through a lot of stuff before I find something I like

[ChuckM 1]

Williams may be more predictable in the filler area, but that's not really what I was talking about. I mean that Goldsmith's main themes themselves are ridiculously predictable. Every time I hear a score of his for the first time I find myself knowing exactly what notes will come next.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

that's not true...but I have to go through a lot of stuff before I find something I like

If you judged American Idol or Pop Idol or whatever your localized version is....you would save us from a lot of ho-hum.

[Wojo 2,453]

Yes, because as we all know, American Idol and and Canadian Idol have such a big impact on the film scoring industry...

[Morlock 11]

Ok I would have to say David Shire's Return to Oz is an exception to his otherwise average scores IMO.

What about The Taking of The Pelham 1,2,3.

Indeed. Two very different, quite awesome scores.

The Conversation, too.

[Uni 306]

I mean that Goldsmith's main themes themselves are ridiculously predictable. Every time I hear a score of his for the first time I find myself knowing exactly what notes will come next.

I don't know that I would go so far as to say his themes are ridiculously predictable. For me, it's mostly in the rest of a score's makeup. Setting aside his truly brilliant works (Star Trek: TMP, Patton, Rudy, among many others--and please, people, we don't need to spin off into a whole side debate on what qualifies as his "brilliant" works), I've found that many of his scores follow a certain paradigm. He always seems to tap into the central dramatic essence of a story and come up with at least one certifiably great cue that sums up that essence beautifully. In Explorers it was "The Construction"; In Medicine Man it was "The Trees"; in First Knight it was "Camelot Lives," and so on. But after seemingly exhausting his genius in that particular cue or two, the rest of the score is padded out with patterned music that just comes across as . . . well, filler. Steadily building progressions, general rhythmical backgrounds, repeating cadences and phrasings--all very recognizable and "Goldsmithy." (Sometimes, however, even his general underscoring business reached a level of erudite glory, in scores like Poltergeist, for example.)

Please don't misunderstand me, folks--I am not saying Goldsmith was a hack. I'm not exaggerating in the least when I apply the word "genius" to the man. I respect and value his work. I love what he did. But one of the standards this thread seems to be using to identify filler music is how often we skip those sorts of tracks. Bottom line for me: I rarely skip tracks in Williams' scores. I do a lot of skipping when it comes to Goldsmith.

- Uni

[Erik Woods 555]

One of the very reasons I listed Safan as an average composer with a single great score is the fact that all his scores sound exactly the same. The theme from Remo sounds just like the theme from The Last Starfighter. You know without any doubt it's the same composer. The difference is that Starfighter is far and away the superior score--the single instance (to my knowledge) that his particular sound and style fit the project beautifully. Remo is a simplistic, pedestrian work that sounds like studio contract work.

You really need to find SON OF THE MORNING STAR.

Superb score!

-Erik-

[Marian Schedenig 8,192]

I don't know that I would go so far as to say his themes are ridiculously predictable. For me, it's mostly in the rest of a score's makeup. Setting aside his truly brilliant works (Star Trek: TMP, Patton, Rudy, among many others--and please, people, we don't need to spin off into a whole side debate on what qualifies as his "brilliant" works), I've found that many of his scores follow a certain paradigm. He always seems to tap into the central dramatic essence of a story and come up with at least one certifiably great cue that sums up that essence beautifully. In Explorers it was "The Construction"; In Medicine Man it was "The Trees"; in First Knight it was "Camelot Lives," and so on. But after seemingly exhausting his genius in that particular cue or two, the rest of the score is padded out with patterned music that just comes across as . . . well, filler. Steadily building progressions, general rhythmical backgrounds, repeating cadences and phrasings--all very recognizable and "Goldsmithy." (Sometimes, however, even his general underscoring business reached a level of erudite glory, in scores like Poltergeist, for example.)

I see what you mean, but I would put it differently: Unlike (often) Williams, Goldsmith rarely was a "set piece composer". While Williams is famous for his set piece cues, which often are thematically quite independent from the main framework of the score (e.g. Basket Chase or Asteroid Field), Goldsmith was more focused on making the score as a whole consistent. If he wrote set pieces (like the above mentioned The Trees, or also The Enterprise), they also often were the thematic core of the entire score. The rest then necessarily serves more as a framework and development for these cues. It's one of the points where I see a strong likeness to Anton Bruckner: Structurally consistent works that aim strategically for a few climaxes rather than focusing too much on individual moments. While the development pieces may at first seem like filler stuff (and in a film scoring environment sometimes can't avoid actually being filler stuff), they actually logically and inevitably work toward the climax points.

That said, when Goldsmith was on autopilot, he often worked far more by the numbers than Williams in similar situations.

[Jurassic Shark 12,066]

On 4/14/2010 at 8:00 PM, Marian Schedenig said:

I see what you mean, but I would put it differently: Unlike (often) Williams, Goldsmith rarely was a "set piece composer". While Williams is famous for his set piece cues, which often are thematically quite independent from the main framework of the score (e.g. Basket Chase or Asteroid Field), Goldsmith was more focused on making the score as a whole consistent. If he wrote set pieces (like the above mentioned The Trees, or also The Enterprise), they also often were the thematic core of the entire score. The rest then necessarily serves more as a framework and development for these cues. It's one of the points where I see a strong likeness to Anton Bruckner: Structurally consistent works that aim strategically for a few climaxes rather than focusing too much on individual moments. While the development

pieces may at first seem like filler stuff (and in a film scoring environment sometimes can't avoid actually being filler stuff), they actually logically and inevitably work toward the climax points.

That said, when Goldsmith was on autopilot, he often worked far more by the numbers than Williams in similar situations.

 

Interesting comparison to Bruckner. Regarding autopilot, which scores by JG and JW would you say are the most autopiloty?

[bruce marshall 1,315]

https://filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=45124&forumID=1&archive=0

[Thor 7,495]

Yikes. The number of great composers put up as 'average' in this ancient thread (any particular reason for the bump, JS?) is shocking, to say the least.

[Jurassic Shark 12,066]

I didn't realize the previous post was from 2010.

 

On 4/10/2010 at 2:36 AM, Marian Schedenig said:

For a long time, Mists of Avalon was the only score by Holdridge I knew. Over the last few months, I picked up three more of his CDs, and they're all very good. Some even outstanding.

 

Which scores by Holdridge would you like to recommend?

[bruce marshall 1,315]

" Average" is in the eye of the beholder .

Besides, an average film composer is a pretty darn good composer !

 

[Edmilson 7,436]

Well, I'm not a fan of Tyler Bates, but his score for Guardians of the Galaxy 2 is great. One of the best of MCU's Phase 3, I'd put it above Gia's Doctor Strange and Mothersbaugh's Thor: Ragnarok.

[Kühni 485]

.

[Marian Schedenig 8,192]

5 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Interesting comparison to Bruckner. Regarding autopilot, which scores by JG and JW would you say are the most autopiloty?

 

Goldsmith: Plenty, simply because he was a workaholic and scored bad films even when they didn't particularly inspire him, even late in his career when prominent music was less called for (Williams instead was able to pick films/collaborations that still allowed for prominent scores, sometimes had a tendency to overscore films that didn't, or simply chose to write concert works instead). Forever Young is an example I recently dug out again and as always can't remember much about. In many cases, Goldsmith autopilot scores are fine scores in their own right (which is why I'm still a completist), but because he's worked the same ground so much better in other cases, there's little reason to return to them more often then once every few years.

 

Williams: Probably fewer, for the reasons cited above. Certainly chunks of HP:CoS. The Patriot comes to mind - lovely theme, some good moments, but overall the score never left much an impression for me. There's also a certain autopilot character to his numerous Ludlow reworkings, although about half of them take the material in some interesting new directions (nevertheless, a certain Hornerish disorientation aspect remains when the same theme suddenly pops up in a different leitmotif-based score).

 

5 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Which scores by Holdridge would you like to recommend?

 

Most of those I have are good (as far as I recall), but a good deal of them I barely remember and haven't listened to in years, so the repeated listening factor may be in question. In any case, besides Mists of Avalon, the Gerhardt album is a must have. Of the scores represented on it, I also have the score releases for The Beastmaster and East of Eden, but in both cases I've found the Gerhardt selections sufficient (and better performed/recorded).

[Romão 2,274]

The Search for Peace is a great one by Holdridge

[Kühni 485]

.

[Niktob 4]

Among other good ones mentioned, The Hunt for Red October by Basil Poledouris is great.

[Marian Schedenig 8,192]

1 hour ago, Romão said:

The Search for Peace is a great one by Holdridge

 

I have that. I'll have to give it another spin.

 

26 minutes ago, Niktob said:

Among other good ones mentioned, The Hunt for Red October by Basil Poledouris is great.

 

It is. But despite its highlights, it's a rather uneven score (which is also shown by the expansion which sadly doesn't really improve the album's previous unevenness), and therefore hardly Poledouris' best. Which makes it an unfitting example for this thread.

[Jurassic Shark 12,066]

Yeah, what is Poledouris' best? I'd say Red October or Starship Troopers.

[Thor 7,495]

CONAN. Forever and ever.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,344]

17 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Yeah, what is Poledouris' best? I'd say Red October or Starship Troopers.

Wind!

[Jurassic Shark 12,066]

Really?

[Edmilson 7,436]

Poledouris is an "average composer"? 

 

I'm pretty sure the guy who wrote Conan is at least above the average.

[Jurassic Shark 12,066]

13 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

Poledouris is an "average composer"? 

 

He's a mean composer.

[Romão 2,274]

1 hour ago, Thor said:

CONAN. Forever and ever.

 

Agreed. Starship Troopers and Les Misérables I'm also very fond of. He's far from a one hit wonder, even though I think his greatest work (Conan) is head and shoulders above everything else he wrote

[Thor 7,495]

Oh sure, I own 16 Poledourises that I all enjoy, but CONAN THE BARBARIAN stands not only as his magnum opus, but as a cornerstone in film music history that is liked by almost everyone.

 

As for Holdridge, who was mentioned earlier, I've always found him an accomplished "technician" in terms of orchestral composition - on display in scores such as 16 DAYS OF GLORY (about our own Lillehammer Olympics), INTO THIN AIR, THE BEASTMASTER etc. - but I never really found the trademark or the emotional connection. I think my favourite of his remains the MOONLIGHTING theme, which is a show I remember fondly from my childhood (called BØLLEN OG BLONDINEN in Norway, translated as THE BULLY AND THE BLONDE).

[Jurassic Shark 12,066]

6 minutes ago, Thor said:

I think my favourite of his remains the MOONLIGHTING theme, which is a show I remember fondly from my childhood (called BØLLEN OG BLONDINEN in Norway, translated as THE BULLY AND THE BLONDE).

 

That was Bruce Willis' breakthrough TV series, for those who didn't know that. Still worth seeing.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,344]

Jaws by John Williams 

[Thor 7,495]

6 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

That was Bruce Willis' breakthrough TV series, for those who didn't know that. Still worth seeing.

 

Indeed it was. I'm old enough to have followed his career ever since his breakthrough with that show and untill today. I don't know if that's scary or comforting.

[Jurassic Shark 12,066]

1 minute ago, Thor said:

 

Indeed it was. I'm old enough to have followed his career ever since his breakthrough with that show and untill today. I don't know if that's scary or comforting.

 

On a sidenote, what do you think was the last good film he starred in?

[Jay 37,351]

Sin City in 2005

[Thor 7,495]

4 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

On a sidenote, what do you think was the last good film he starred in?

 

I actually like a lot of the direct-to-video pics he's done in recent years, but I would have to say GLASS. I think MOTHERLESS BROOKLYN was decent (and a fantastic score, one of the best of the year), but I enjoyed GLASS more -- even if it's nowhere near the level of UNBREAKABLE or SPLIT.

 

But in terms of top quality movie, no nuancing needed, it would be LOOPER (2012).

[Jay 37,351]

Oh, I forgot about Looper!  That's the last good one for me

[Marian Schedenig 8,192]

17 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Yeah, what is Poledouris' best? I'd say Red October or Starship Troopers.

 

Conan and Starship Troopers. Hard to rank one above the other, because both are brilliant in their own ways. Starship Troopers is perhaps more consistent as a complete score, while Conan is more fragmented and has some lengths, but it makes up for that with numerous first rate set pieces. Both scores have Poledouris' trademark of finding sublimely lyrical spots in between mainly hardcore action material.

 

(And then there's a substantial number of very good second tier scores that firmly put Poledouris above average)

43 minutes ago, Thor said:

As for Holdridge, who was mentioned earlier, I've always found him an accomplished "technician" in terms of orchestral composition - on display in scores such as 16 DAYS OF GLORY (about our own Lillehammer Olympics), INTO THIN AIR, THE BEASTMASTER etc. - but I never really found the trademark or the emotional connection. I think my favourite of his remains the MOONLIGHTING theme, which is a show I remember fondly from my childhood (called BØLLEN OG BLONDINEN in Norway, translated as THE BULLY AND THE BLONDE).

 

Do you know the Gerhardt album?

 

 

 

These two, and Mists of Avalon, have plenty of genuine emotion for my taste.

 

…especially the lyricism of East of Eden is not so far removed from a Poledouris score.

[Jurassic Shark 12,066]

13 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said:

 

Conan and Starship Troopers. Hard to rank one above the other, because both are brilliant in their own ways. Starship Troopers is perhaps more consistent as a complete score, while Conan is more fragmented and has some lengths, but it makes up for that with numerous first rate set pieces. Both scores have Poledouris' trademark of finding sublimely lyrical spots in between mainly hardcore action material.

 

(And then there's a substantial number of very good second tier scores that firmly put Poledouris above average)

 

Do you know the Gerhardt album?

 

 

 

These two, and Mists of Avalon, have plenty of genuine emotion for my taste.

 

…especially the lyricism of East of Eden is not so far removed from a Poledouris score.

 

I've checked out Gerhardt's Holdridge album earlier, and I think it's the only Gerhardt film music album that's missing from my collection, except for some early Reader's Digest efforts that's only available on vinyl. If I remember correctly, my main problem with his music is that it's quite monophonic, which would often reqiure more interesting melodic material than what he came up with, but the tracks you posted are certainly good.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

15 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

He's a mean composer.

 

I see what you did there.

[Jurassic Shark 12,066]

Whaaat? Moi?

[bruce marshall 1,315]

Who.is Lee Holdridge?

[Jurassic Shark 12,066]

A composer.

[Lord Zimmer 211]

Dunno if this counts, but I’m gonna say Jeremy Zuckerman. He did the music for the Nick show Avatar: Last Airbender and the sequel Legend of Korra. Iirc they never actually released the OST and haven’t heard any of his other work (so he might be great?!). 

 

His work on that really stood with me, maybe because I love the show and nostalgia plays a part. But there are some lovely themes in there.

[Jurassic Shark 12,066]

Whatever, HanZ.

[Thor 7,495]

15 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said:

Do you know the Gerhardt album?

 

I do, but I don't own it. I wouldn't be surprised if Holdridge works better in smaller doses, and in suite format, where the few melodic elements get to shine more, as opposed to getting lost in fairly directionless, but "pretty" orchestral music on the score albums themselves.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,516]

Now, most JWfaners know that I can be a teeny-weeny bit disappointed with Hans Zimmer's output, but, for some strange reason, I really get off, on INTERSTELLAR.

[Jurassic Shark 12,066]

I'll have to block you now, I'm sure you understand.

[Jurassic Shark 12,066]

Roy Budd*

 

*This post is dedicated to @Smeltington and @Thor.

 

[Smeltington 1,440]

Thank you for the dedication, it means a lot. But now you're telling me Roy Budd is AVERAGE?

[Jurassic Shark 12,066]

On 1/7/2021 at 4:05 PM, Marian Schedenig said:

Williams: Probably fewer, for the reasons cited above. Certainly chunks of HP:CoS. The Patriot comes to mind - lovely theme, some good moments, but overall the score never left much an impression for me. There's also a certain autopilot character to his numerous Ludlow reworkings, although about half of them take the material in some interesting new directions (nevertheless, a certain Hornerish disorientation aspect remains when the same theme suddenly pops up in a different leitmotif-based score).

 

I'd add Monsignor to the list.