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Better late than never, eh? I posted somewhat irregularly in the beginning since I didn't have my own computer back in the day and had to do all my posting at the university. I suppose I didn't create

to quote Hillary Clinton "What difference, at this point, does it make?"

To enjoy film music I believe you have to separate it from the film. I didn't realize I was in the minority, I always though people listened to film music without associating it with the film.

Not counting films made before I was born or of an age where I could see them, I have always bought my film score before seeing the movie.

There have been many times where I've sat there in amazement at how a composer could find music magic with the crap I was seeing on screen.

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COS has the feel that JW did compose the music, but also that he was going through the motions at many points.

However, I have to say I take more issue with POA. Everyone goes gaga over that one, but I'm still annoyed that JW dropped most of his established themes. I don't care if the movie has a different tone and was all dark and weird with shrunken heads or whatever, why exactly the theme for Harry and his friends had to be completely MIA is one for the scholars to debate when JW's music is studied in about 100 years. The Nimbus theme is another favorite that would have fit perfectly into the Quidditch scene as opposed to showing up briefly at the very end of the movie.

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To enjoy film music I believe you have to separate it from the film. I didn't realize I was in the minority, I always though people listened to film music without associating it with the film.

You'd certainly have to in the case of COS, Mark. :) And I disagree with your overall premise - I think that's certainly one valid way of enjoying film music, but certainly not the only one. Studying the way music and picture match up fascinates me and brings an additional layer of enjoyment for me personally. Furthermore, because I'm more likely to be familiar with a score to a film that I enjoy, there's a greater likelihood that I'll have the soundtrack, and thus a greater likelihood that I'll be reminded of the film I enjoy. Simply purging all thoughts of the film is nearly impossible for me; I can really only listen to a score with no visual reference if I've never seen the film in the first place. And even then, the movie and track titles alone are usually enough to make me start imagining what the film might be like.

Anyway, I've been transparent about my criteria from the beginning - I believe I said that the score helped ruin the film for me.

Also, regarding POA - I agree that its lack of musical continuity with the previous films is irritating, but I like what Williams came up with so much that I'm willing to accept it. I'd rather have great all-new material (POA) than great mostly-rehashed-or-autopilot material (COS), though the ideal score would of course maintain thematic consistency while exploring vast new universes of sound. Like ESB.

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However, I have to say I take more issue with POA. Everyone goes gaga over that one, but I'm still annoyed that JW dropped most of his established themes. I don't care if the movie has a different tone and was all dark and weird with shrunken heads or whatever, why exactly the theme for Harry and his friends had to be completely MIA is one for the scholars to debate when JW's music is studied in about 100 years. The Nimbus theme is another favorite that would have fit perfectly into the Quidditch scene as opposed to showing up briefly at the very end of the movie.

I think reading the original liner notes for Last Crusade might explain why, plus it could have been Alfonso CuarĂ³n's wishes that Williams not use some of the established themes.

But back to LC to explain. I was surprised at the lack of the Raiders march in the film but Spielberg explained in the liner notes that they felt by the third film they didn't need to use it for Indy's heroics all the time. So perhaps it's a similar situation with POA.

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I never noticed much of a significant reduction in the use of the Raiders March in TLC. A reduction in quality, perhaps, but not in quantity. POA, on the other hand, only uses Hedwig's theme in very rare cases, with the flying theme only making one cameo at the end, and the various themes for Harry's family and for Hogwarts and whatnot being abandoned altogether. Again, it doesn't ruin that excellent score for me, but I am a sucker for thematic consistency.

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The CoS album is fine thought. And it contains HPSS re-recorded unreleased music

The CD would be perfect if they hadn't included "Cornish Pixies" which is, I believe the same as "The Flying Keys" from PS. Had they dropped that and added something new it would be perfect. Then again I can't really recall a lot of memorable unreleased music, though it's been a while since I've seen the movie. There's some nice music when they're on Ron's house I think, and I'm sure I heard the Chamber theme somewhere in the movie, while on the CD it's only on the concert piece.

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Well,there's a few interesting unreleased CoS tidbits. Like you said the music in Ron's house. There's a cool cue when Harry confronts Malfoy at the end. A few Chamber theme snippets. For the rest I'd have to re-listen to the DVD rips

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To enjoy film music I believe you have to separate it from the film. I didn't realize I was in the minority, I always though people listened to film music without associating it with the film.

Not counting films made before I was born or of an age where I could see them, I have always bought my film score before seeing the movie.

Same here ;)

I'm not much of a film nut; I always judge on the score I buy which films might be worthy of my attention.

Well, not always, but that is the rule of thumb.

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William Ross just pieced the cues together and conducted.

I thought he wrote that wonderful extended bit on the end of "Reunion of Friends?"

However, I have to say I take more issue with POA. Everyone goes gaga over that one, but I'm still annoyed that JW dropped most of his established themes. I don't care if the movie has a different tone and was all dark and weird with shrunken heads or whatever, why exactly the theme for Harry and his friends had to be completely MIA is one for the scholars to debate when JW's music is studied in about 100 years. The Nimbus theme is another favorite that would have fit perfectly into the Quidditch scene as opposed to showing up briefly at the very end of the movie.

I don't think any of the dropped themes would have fit the film. A composer's first duty is to support the film, and hearing the Nimbus 2000 theme during the Quidditch Match would've been much too light and fun (although it worked splendidly in SS).

I never noticed much of a significant reduction in the use of the Raiders March in TLC. A reduction in quality, perhaps, but not in quantity.

The difference in quantity between LC and ToD (which I'm almost positive has the most Raiders variations) is pretty large. "Short Round Helps" alone probably has almost as many variations of the Raiders March as the entire LC score.

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William Ross just pieced the cues together and conducted.

I thought he wrote that wonderful extended bit on the end of "Reunion of Friends?"

Really?!? ;) You mean one of my favorite Williams bits ever wasn't even written by Williams?

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William Ross just pieced the cues together and conducted.

I thought he wrote that wonderful extended bit on the end of "Reunion of Friends?"

Really?!? ;) You mean one of my favorite Williams bits ever wasn't even written by Williams?

Someone here,I forgot his name,Helgi or something like that, who apparently worked for William Ross claimed that Ross wrote the end of Reunion of Friends. I never really believed him,there's too much John Williams fingerprints and exact melody progressions in there. Nobody ,including Alexander Courage in Superman 4, has been able to duplicate exact Williams writing like that. I doubt William Ross could,after hearing some of his other stuff.

If he DID write it ,it means he could have easily done the rest of the score by himself. So it makes no sense.

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Ah, I remember that thread. Yeah, if it's not Williams, then it is an incredible imitation. But I'll just keep believing it's the real thing until we get definitive word otherwise (like in the liner notes of the complete score release that we all live in hope of... Well, all except for Datameister.) ;)

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Just give me another example where someone imitated Williams this closely with an original composition and maybe I'll believe it. Even Joel Mc Neely's Indiana Jones and the Phantom Train of Doom is close to Williams style, but you can tell it apart.

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I dunno, I think that Helgi's proof sounds pretty definitive. I just don't see the incentive for anybody to make up such a random piece of information. I must admit, I was a bit dissapointed when I found it out, as I love that segment and the fanboy inside me loves loving Williams music.

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I don't think any of the dropped themes would have fit the film. A composer's first duty is to support the film, and hearing the Nimbus 2000 theme during the Quidditch Match would've been much too light and fun (although it worked splendidly in SS).

This is just bs.

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I dunno, I think that Helgi's proof sounds pretty definitive. I just don't see the incentive for anybody to make up such a random piece of information. I must admit, I was a bit dissapointed when I found it out, as I love that segment and the fanboy inside me loves loving Williams music.

That's the point, Helgi gave us no real proof, and he only shows up on the message board when were debating this very topic. And yes there is incentive to mislead , because Williams himself is hiding something about what exactly happened. Nothing corresponds to his official statement that he only wrote 40 minutes of new music.

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I don't think any of the dropped themes would have fit the film. A composer's first duty is to support the film, and hearing the Nimbus 2000 theme during the Quidditch Match would've been much too light and fun (although it worked splendidly in SS).

This is just bs.

I definitely feel enlightened for having read this post. I finally understand your point, due in no small part to your meticulously thought-out and brilliantly argued point.

I dunno, I think that Helgi's proof sounds pretty definitive. I just don't see the incentive for anybody to make up such a random piece of information. I must admit, I was a bit dissapointed when I found it out, as I love that segment and the fanboy inside me loves loving Williams music.

That's the point ,Helgi gave us no proof. Yes there is incentive to mislead , because Williams himself is hiding something about what exactly happened.Nothing corresponds to his official statement that he only wrote 40 minutes of new music.

So you think JW misled Helgi who passed on information he thought was accurate? Then what was Williams' motif to mislead us?

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Maybe Williams motif for misleading us is purely a professional courtesy to protect the reputation of William Ross, so he kept his credit exactly as he originally intended. At this point in is career, maybe JW doesn't care if he get credit for all the music he wrote. "Ross did not compose any new material himself; everything he wrote was based on John's material.Williams insisted, though, that Ross receive a "Music Adapted by" credit onscreen"

And I never said that Williams did the actual misleading to Helgi .Maybe Helgi was just sent here because we were speculating about the topic too much. I'm sure Williams doesn't even know we exist , but maybe some composers do read our posts sometimes. Or maybe Helgi had some earlier sketches that were later replaced by Williams.

Now I'm not trying to make a personal attack on Helgi , he seemed like a nice guy, but things just don't add up.

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I don't know. We don't have the definitive answer to that. Except the guy who analyzed the hand written sketches said all the cues were from Williams (including an alternate Finale) and he had no idea what Williams Ross did.He just said it as a matter of fact not really taking sides on the issue

Is that written score analysis still in the JWFan archives somewhere? It was like 100 pages long or something .It's the second important part of my theory.

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It makes sense to me. "Ross did not compose any new material himself; everything he wrote was based on John's material." The first part of the sentence establishes that everything was written by Williams. The second establishes that he did do some work (I think the author of the article uses the word "wrote" loosely, and he probably means arranged). I think the real question is whether something got lost in translation between this author and his source, or whether he just doesn't know enough about the process to truly understand what his source was saying. Because I'd be more willing to trust somebody like Helgi, who obviously knows what he's talking about, than a reported who really doesn't know much about film scoring.

Maybe Williams motif for misleading us is purely a professional courtesy to protect the reputation of William Ross, so he kept his credit exactly as he originally intended. At this point in is career, maybe JW doesn't care if he get credit for all the music he wrote. "Ross did not compose any new material himself; everything he wrote was based on John's material.Williams insisted, though, that Ross receive a "Music Adapted by" credit onscreen"

And I never said that Williams did the actual misleading to Helgi .Maybe Helgi was just sent here because we were speculating about the topic too much. I'm sure Williams doesn't even know we exist , but maybe some composers do read our posts sometimes. Or maybe Helgi had some earlier sketches that were later replaced by Williams.

Now I'm not trying to make a personal attack on Helgi , he seemed like a nice guy, but things just don't add up.

Eh, I don't know that sounds pretty involved for a fact that, ultimately, is fairly meaningless. And I don't see how speculating fans could really pose that much of a threat to this "ultimate secret" that Williams or Ross or some mysterious other wants to take to his/her grave.

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Lets say someone came out and told us John Williams didn't write The Raiders March. For me that's about as unbelievable as Williams not writing the last 2 minutes of Reunion of Friends.

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Lets say someone came out and told us John Williams didn't write The Raiders March. For me that's about as unbelievable as Williams not writing the last 2 minutes of Reunion of Friends.

But that's different. Raiders was one of 2 films Williams scored in 1981 as opposed to 2002's 4 (plus, he was much younger and able to handle more films back then). There was no other composer given a credit for writing Raiders, so aunnoncing one out of the blue after 30 years would be unbelievable. "The Raiders March" is the central theme for an entire series of films, if he was truly too busy then maybe JW would have skimped out of the "Bad Dates" cue and had somebody else compose it, he would have definitely at least written the main theme. And if somehow he didn't have enough time, he wasn't enough of a superstar to warrant incredible financial lengths for the studios (E.T., Raiders, and Potter had yet to come, and Williams' music from SW and Jaws had not finished the test of time to prove to be true icons). If Williams couldn't do the whole score, Paramount probably would have just scraped him and gotten a new composer.

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No,I just meant in the context of closing your eyes and listening to it. Lets say ,in an alternate reality, it was suddenly officially announced that Williams didn't write the Raiders March ,but he did write the Superman Theme and the Star Wars theme...could your ears believe it? Would your whole perception of JW be thrown out of whack?

When you first heard the End Credits or the Amblin Fanfare of Amazing Story on TV but couldn't see Williams name in the credits ,did you even think for a second it could have been written by someone else? Even the 5 second "Act Break" couldn't have been written by another composer.

The problem with Reunion of Friends is that it's not just random underscore,it's a fully blown elaborate fanfare ,much more difficult to copy.

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No,I just meant in the context of closing your eyes and listening to it. Lets say ,in an alternate reality, it was suddenly officially announced that Williams didn't write the Raiders March ,but he did write the Superman Theme and the Star Wars theme...could your ears believe it? Would your whole perception of JW be thrown out of whack?

Eh, I don't know it's hard for me to imagine such a reality. I mean, obviously I would be shocked completely, but I think that's largely due to the fact that I have associated the Raiders March--not necessarily that style--as something that only Williams has written.

It does sound very Williamsesque, I'll give you that, but I don't know how I'd be able to tell the difference between Williams writing somewhat stock Williams material (don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the extension) and a very good imitator trying to copy his style.

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I don't like the ending of Reunion of Friends, musically or film-ically. Far too happy and 'this is the syrupy happy ending of a great film' feeling.. In fact I read somewhere that Columbus wanted that ending, but no one else, including the screenwriter did. Or the other way round. In fact I find the whole film incredibly childish and dated, and almost 'high school' quality at some points. I blame Columbus entirely for that - his grasp of anything more than cute kids movies seems sketchy to me.

As for the score, I wouldn't have been too bummed out if Williams had just given his themes to another composer and let them score the film. As a result of him scoring two films at once, I think it's clear which one got more attention, and although there's nothing truly bad about it, the excessive reuse of material makes it sound like a rushed replacement score.

A plus of the album of course is that we have the dark forest material missing from the first OST, but other than that I'd say it's a pretty average effort that basically any competent composer these days could have written.

So, if the CoS sessions leaked, I'd be pleased, but not jumping for Joy. If the SS or PoA sessions came out... yeaahhhh!

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Your signature news article quote doesn't really help since it sort of contradicts itself. William Ross didn't compose any new material, but he wrote material based on material Williams wrote? So he did end up writing material in some way? The hell?

I think that's one of the misunderstandings Hellgi did. He wehemently tried to convince us that William Ross WROTE material for COS.

But never gave proof of any new theme or original piece-segment composed by him, IIRC

He was telling the truth, of course. When someone adapts some other score, he does not just get the Original score cuesheets and creates a new cue getting these two pages here, that page there, and then this three pages from this other cue. One get his pentagram book and write down the music copied, adding the variations he seems fit, or none at all, just changing the length or tempo.

So yes William Ross wrote the whole COS score (and he must have that manuspcrit or printed book in his house), he just with most probability did not composed anything.

About chase through coruscant. I endured COS some time ago just to hear this lazy rip off. I was surprise it was no different that a similar passage shared between within-the-year scores like has happened in his entire career. So i dont see why the fuss is about. I was expecting somthing like 'Phantom train of doom' or 'IJ and the staff of kings' thing.

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yeah ,what it says at the bottom of page 3 and top of page 4.

And if you read through.every time he thinks he found something by Williams Ross ,he double checks and no,it's by Williams himself. And all the cue we might attribute to Ross (the unreleased music mostly) is by Williams

Anyways you get the feeling something weird went on

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Not being glib in any way. But if Ross was able to write in a style so accurate to Williams (and Cos featues many cues that to me, are Signature, classic John Williams) he would be substantially more known and successful, as that would be an incredible talent.

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Not being glib in any way. But if Ross was able to write in a style so accurate to Williams (and Cos featues many cues that to me, are Signature, classic John Williams) he would be substantially more known and successful, as that would be an incredible talent.

Yes,that's also the point I'm trying to make. But some people are hell bent in believing Williams official press conference and what Helgi said word for word.

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COS sounds far too Williams for me to believe that Ross made any significant contributions overall, although I'll admit that many of the orchestrations of music from the first movie sound are enhanced in COS. Ross seemed to pull all of the magic out of JW's music and it seemed like Williams was more restrained when recording the first score. It could just be the LSO or it could be that Ross is a damn good conductor/adapter. Either way, COS is a desirable complete score.

..."Harry's Wondrous World" headphones_emoticon.gif

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Heavens forbid a press release or someone who works in the business is telling the truth. Everything has to be a conspiracy. We just can't accept that perhaps everything did indeed happen the way the press release said.

There's something different about COS. It's Williams compositions but something is different.

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I don't like the ending of Reunion of Friends, musically or film-ically. Far too happy and 'this is the syrupy happy ending of a great film' feeling.. In fact I read somewhere that Columbus wanted that ending, but no one else, including the screenwriter did. Or the other way round. In fact I find the whole film incredibly childish and dated, and almost 'high school' quality at some points. I blame Columbus entirely for that - his grasp of anything more than cute kids movies seems sketchy to me.

I partially agree. I think the film ending is horribly cheesy, and the music, while it fits perfectly with the film, doesn't help. So I'm not really sure if I'd call that a cue that brilliantly adapts to blend with the film or a syrupy cue that just makes the already-to-sweet film a bit sweeter. Although I'm not really sure what other way Williams/Ross could have taken the scene, considering there's a big dramatic pull back (or whatever it's called) through the window of Hogwarts and a shot of a large portion of the castle.

However, apart from the film I absolutely love to listen to the cue, I think it's just so grand and romantic that I can forget about the cringe-fest of a film it was written for.

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I don't like the ending of Reunion of Friends, musically or film-ically. Far too happy and 'this is the syrupy happy ending of a great film' feeling.. In fact I read somewhere that Columbus wanted that ending, but no one else, including the screenwriter did. Or the other way round. In fact I find the whole film incredibly childish and dated, and almost 'high school' quality at some points. I blame Columbus entirely for that - his grasp of anything more than cute kids movies seems sketchy to me.

I partially agree. I think the film ending is horribly cheesy, and the music, while it fits perfectly with the film, doesn't help. So I'm not really sure if I'd call that a cue that brilliantly adapts to blend with the film or a syrupy cue that just makes the already-to-sweet film a bit sweeter. Although I'm not really sure what other way Williams/Ross could have taken the scene, considering there's a big dramatic pull back (or whatever it's called) through the window of Hogwarts and a shot of a large portion of the castle.

However, apart from the film I absolutely love to listen to the cue, I think it's just so grand and romantic that I can forget about the cringe-fest of a film it was written for.

You all are crazy. I LOVE "Reunion With Friends" In fact,

:P "Reunion of Friends"

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Yeah, the ending of the film was just ridiculous. As I recall...Hagrid comes back, and the entire hall goes completely silent so he can have a little conversation with a few students, and then everyone applauds his return ad nauseum, complete with cheesy grins and fist-shaking, right? No wonder the music produces such mixed feelings in me - if that same ending had been written for the end of DH Part 2 instead, it probably would have had me in tears. But at the end of this film? Blech.

Besides, the original was classier, less long-winded. That's one of my favorite last shots of any film, especially with the music...it's gorgeous but not overdone. The end of COS sounds like it's the end of an entire freaking saga.

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