Alcoholic Goldsmith wanted Williams' throne ;O)

[publicist 4,643]

On FSM, Lukas Kendall finally pours some saucy stuff over the eternal FSM Jerry-Lovefest with some rather scathing remarks about the later Goldsmith's music. Since this very style divides the fan camps everywhere, i found it á propos for opening a discussion. So did Jerry try to become a second-hand Barry or Williams? Or was he going with the time, giving producers what they wanted? And does quitting alcohol makes someone a mellow person?

In LK's own words:

I don't think Jerry was trying to please anyone but himself. He was a longtime alcoholic who got into AA in the late 1980s and I think it influenced his work in a lighter, sweeter direction. The AA thing has been known within the industry but was not something that people discussed publicly while he was alive, for obvious reasons. But Carrie mentioned it in her public book excerpts (the book that will never come out) so I don't see why we should pretend that it didn't exist. By the 1990s film music fandom was a very real thing (so people were always telling him how great he was -- which was true!)... movie music styles had changed, making a lot of his previous experimentation inappropriate for contemporary movies... and I think he wanted the acclaim that was going to John Barry and John Williams who wrote more accessible "pop" tunes. But very simply I think in sobriety and in his second marriage he was a happy guy, finally, and he felt a kind of simplicity and bliss and when he looked at movies like The Edge and Powder that's what he saw, and what he felt inclined to bring out -- even though to the rest of us it might be artistically inappropriate. He always lived on the edge artistically but what was new and different in the 1990s wasn't things that sounded like The Mephisto Waltz but pop scores and retro scores and Pulp Fiction. Jerry was a great modernist but not at all a postmodernist and there is a big distinction. Postmodernism is about the nature of theatricality -- it's about irony and quotation and blending genres, high and low. That wasn't Jerry's bag intellectually. He saw things in black and white and I think he lived in Beverly Hills for so long, doing movie after movie, that he experienced the changing of the world only through the movies in front of him. Maybe this is harsh. After my run-ins with the Goldsmith family on Carrie's aborted book, I can't say I care.

[fommes 153]

Nice thread title!

[King Mark 3,631]

I guess he wrote better music while he was drinking

[Melange 446]

Nice thread title!

My thought exactly. That post title deserves to be framed

Along with the shocker - "Williams caught spying for Russia"

Track 1- The FSB and me

Track 2- I Could have Done More

Track 3- Remembering Gorky Park

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

So the Goldsmiths are being mean and nasty to Kendall?

[publicist 4,643]

So the Goldsmiths are being mean and nasty to Kendall?

They denied him Goldsmith's golden ashtray after the book deal fell through...

[Quintus 5,399]

This shall be a popcorn worthy thread.

One thing I don't buy is this reoccuring thing that Goldsmith claimed JW specialised in "pop" scores and that he was somehow more cutting edge. Bullshit. I was listening to Rudy the other day and if that score isn't pandering to the pop mentality then I don't know what is.

As for the alcoholism; big deal - it's one of the best kept secrets in Hollywood that John Williams is a raving sex addict.

[filmmusic 1,826]

it's one of the best kept secrets in Hollywood that John Williams is a raving sex addict.

Really or you're making a joke?

i always was wondering if any film composer had some kind of problem like most celebrities and great artists have (Judith Graland, Edith Piaf, beethoven etc..), but they all seemed to me normal.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Alcoholism is pretty common. I've got a funny mental image of a drunken Jerry getting frustrated with his Yamaha keyboard and smashing his half-full bottle of scotch over it, inadvertently getting the right wheezing electronic sound for his score to Link.

[publicist 4,643]

One thing I don't buy is this reoccuring thing that Goldsmith claimed JW specialised in "pop" scores and that he was somehow more cutting edge. Bullshit. I was listening to Rudy the other day and if that score isn't pandering to the pop mentality then I don't know what is.

But Quinty, that's the whole point. By the time RUDY came, the Goldsmithian palace reid was in full swing.

[Morlock 11]

Indeed- Basic Instinct signaled the end of an era.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Jerry always gave me the impression that he thought his job of film scoring was less than worthy or satisfactory to him, like it was beneath him, that is one reason why I prefer John Williams, and that John wrote better music in general.

[publicist 4,643]

Jerry always gave me the impression that he thought his job of film scoring was less than worthy or satisfactory to him, like it was beneath him, that is one reason why I prefer John Williams, and that John wrote better music in general.

If Williams had to score a lineup of films like BAD GIRLS or CHAIN REACTION, he would give this impression, too.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Jerry always gave me the impression that he thought his job of film scoring was less than worthy or satisfactory to him, like it was beneath him, that is one reason why I prefer John Williams, and that John wrote better music in general.

If Williams had to score a lineup of films like BAD GIRLS or CHAIN REACTION, he would give this impression, too.

not really, he's scored a lineup of seriously bad films like AOTC, ROTS, Terminal, Munich. Neither had to take those assignments

[Wojo 2,453]

If Williams had to score a lineup of films like BAD GIRLS or CHAIN REACTION, he would give this impression, too.

not really, he's scored a lineup of seriously bad films like AOTC, ROTS, Terminal, Munich. Neither had to take those assignments

No, nobody put a gun to their back and said "thou shalt score this." But JW valued his professional and personal friendship with SS too much to say no, and regardless of JW's opinion of GL's treatment of his TPM score, the franchise had become larger than either of them: could JW have walked away from Star Wars without destroying his rep and incurring the wrath of the world?

[publicist 4,643]

not really, he's scored a lineup of seriously bad films like AOTC, ROTS, Terminal, Munich. Neither had to take those assignments

"Seriously bad" according to you, high-profile to most film composers. If we're talking on that scale, scoring a massive blockbuster like KOTCS is like scoring KING SOLOMON'S MINES. Both are bad, but still they're light years apart in terms of public recognition, media coverage and, let's be frank here for a minute, money involved (salary-wise).

[airmanjerm 78]

Composers becoming alcoholics is a real problem. One of my own former composition teachers (who I won't name) had real trouble with this starting in the 80s, and still attends AA meetings. After becoming a writer myself, it's easy to understand how it happens.

Writing music is a very lonely job. You have to seclude yourself for long periods of time, neglecting everyone and everything else. When you write music, you also become so totally engrossed in it that it's often hard to concentrate or focus on anything else. Occasionally, a well-timed cocktail is nice and may help stop the notes from dancing around in your head when you're done, or give you a little relief while you're working.

The problem is when composers start having that one drink more often. It becomes two, then soon drinking becomes a part of the musical process itself - you just can't sit down to write music without it. And since you've already gotten that whole "family-neglect" thing down, well...you can see how that becomes a problem.

Luckily I've never had this kind of trouble personally, although I do enjoy a cocktail at the right time and place. I never knew that about Jerry Goldsmith, although it doesn't make me enjoy his music any less.

[Quintus 5,399]

REAL men don't drink poncey cocktails!

[airmanjerm 78]

REAL men don't drink poncey cocktails!

Ha!

"Cocktail" = code for "Double Jack on the Rocks."

You Quint? You strike me as a Scotch man....?

[Charlie Brigden 7]

I bet Goldsmith's idea of a cocktail was tequila and white spirit. That's why his hair suddenly turned white in 1982.

[Quintus 5,399]

REAL men don't drink poncey cocktails!

Ha!

"Cocktail" = code for "Double Jack on the Rocks."

You Quint? You strike me as a Scotch man....?

Nah, I'm just your typical middle class wino. Sorry to disappoint

I bet Goldsmith's idea of a cocktail was tequila and white spirit. That's why his hair suddenly turned white in 1982.

I always thought he'd stole his hairstyle from the Beast - as seen in the movie he'd recently scored. He always was conscious of current fashion trends, was Goldsmith.

[Andy 4,119]

A little surprising to hear it from Lukas. I wonder what transpired between him and the Goldsmith family.

[Ollie 1,059]

I believe Lukas was helping them seek a publisher and showed the book to someone without asking permission from the family.

Based on the excerpts published and Lukas' comments, this book isn't going to see the light of day anytime soon, probably never.

If it ever does, it will probably be a watered down version. Part of it sounds like Carrie Goldsmith needed some closure with her dad before he passed. And someone asked Mrs. Goldsmith about the book at Ubeda one year and her statement didn't come across as an endorsement. I believe one of the Ubeda threads here or at FSM have those comments.

[Wojo 2,453]

Three became four and four became ten

Tell me, what's my name again?

[David Coscina 3]

I don't think Williams writes "pop" hits- his music vocabulary is one of the most diverse among film composers past or present. It's hard to slag Goldsmith as we don't know what he really said though. All of these "quotes" are heresay and I won't regard them as anything but. I actually find it somewhat distasteful that Mr. Kendall would divulge this kind of information especially with the connotation that he's doing so because of being slighted by Goldsmith's family or some such business....

Jerry Goldsmith, like John Williams was a person- not a demi-god. He very well may have been envious of Williams' celebrity outside core film score fandom. I think Williams was smart enough and lucky enough to fall in with some very good directors- Spielberg and Lucas- well the latter is powerful, maybe not very good...Anyhow, I like a lot of Goldsmith's stuff although I admit to liking his '70s music the most, with exception of First Blood which to me was still scored in a '70s manner. Synths used very minimally. I love The Edge and Mulan from his '90s period even if they aren't as complex as his earlier material. His style was different than Williams and his influences were too. Goldsmith was much more influenced by Bartok, Berg and Stravinsky to my ears. Williams more Prokofiev, Elgar with a touch of Stravinsky, jazz, Ligeti (CEOT3K). Both wrote compelling, challenging, rewarding music. I don't care what they are like in real life. Most artists are irascible characters in truth.

[Jay 37,346]

Lukas has made a bunch more posts about JG and his alcoholic-ness and workaholic-ness over in the thread on FSM:

http://filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=69798

[publicist 4,643]

I find it all rather amusing - no harm in divulging in some dirty composer laundry.

[Andy 4,119]

It is fascinating, to be sure. To suggest that there is a "Jerry 2.0" as Lucas calls it, and that the abstinence from alcohol is the reason his music changed in the 90s. Very fascinating.

[Elmo Lewis 6]

Substances enhance creativity. No debate about that. The question is whether that's cheating or even if it's worth it.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

I guess he wrote better music while he was drinking

And Williams wrote better music when he was a shitty father.

The idea of Goldsmith being envious of Williams and becoming a drunkard...I don't know. I find it hilarious, but then I feel a bit sorry because he's passed. If it's in any way true, it must have sucked for Goldsmith.

I'll say this. The impression I got of Goldsmith from the few interviews I've seen or heard is that's he was a bit pompous and dickish. I mean, in any interview with Williams, he just seems like the nicest dude. He's very passive, while Goldsmith seems aggressive. I think it was on the Star Trek DVD feature where he talks about composing the theme for The Motion Picture that he came off as a bit of a dick. But that's my opinion.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

I'll say this. The impression I got of Goldsmith from the few interviews I've seen or heard is that's he was a bit pompous and dickish. I mean, in any interview with Williams, he just seems like the nicest dude. He's very passive, while Goldsmith seems aggressive. I think it was on the Star Trek DVD feature where he talks about composing the theme for The Motion Picture that he came off as a bit of a dick. But that's my opinion.

Ironically in the industry it's been John Williams that was pompous and arrogant. Goldsmith was more just simply combative, locking horns with director/producers over music. I know of at least one case where John Williams basically walked out on a director. Also part of the reason Williams-Cuaron was a bit of an icy partnership was I think John Williams didn't like some unknown-cult director telling him how to approach a franchise he made popular.

I think it's unwise to go on tightly controlled public images as a gauge for any famous individual's true personality.

When I go on business meetings with other companies I'm a very sugar-coating-everything and charming individual. I'm sure they all think I'm a sweet young businessman. People who work under me on the other hand probably hate me for being too honest. We all have personalities for public situations and for people we are familiar with and usually they are different.

Anyways, I haven't visited FSM's message boards in 10 years. Don't care to. So if anything interesting happens give me some quotes!

[indy4 155]

I'll say this. The impression I got of Goldsmith from the few interviews I've seen or heard is that's he was a bit pompous and dickish. I mean, in any interview with Williams, he just seems like the nicest dude. He's very passive, while Goldsmith seems aggressive. I think it was on the Star Trek DVD feature where he talks about composing the theme for The Motion Picture that he came off as a bit of a dick. But that's my opinion.

Ironically in the industry it's been John Williams that was pompous and arrogant. Goldsmith was more just simply combative, locking horns with director/producers over music. I know of at least one case where John Williams basically walked out on a director. Part of the reason Williams-Cuaron was a bit of an icy partnership was I think John Williams didn't like some unknown-cult director telling him how to approach a franchise he made popular.

Source?

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

I agree. I'd never believe that, but I'd still like to hear more.

[Admiral Holdo 16]

Goldsmith always came off a bit like a smartass. Fortunately, I love smartasses.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Source?

On Prisoner of Azkaban? I am familiar with an individual who was a higher up at Warner Bros at the time.

On Williams walking out of a project? I can't remember for the life of me...that was from over a decade ago. Maybe someone here who's been around the block can corroborate.

Oh and he stormed off the stage after getting angry with the BSO or Boston Pops? Again I can't remember sources for the life of me, but maybe someone else can back me up.

[Quintus 5,399]

None of which takes away the fact that both Goldsmith and Williams are gods among men with the most incredible legacys left behind them.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Agreed. I don't see how the Boston Pops thing is a strike against Williams. A few members of the orchestra hissed or something and he didn't want to deal with it. He never left anyways, so it wasn't a big deal.

[indy4 155]

Agreed. I don't see how the Boston Pops thing is a strike against Williams. A few members of the orchestra hissed or something and he didn't want to deal with it. He never left anyways, so it wasn't a big deal.

Yeah, if this counts as an "arrogant and pompous" moment when really it is a reasonable reaction that only seems unreasonable when given out of context, then the credibility of the other two examples is seriously damaged in my mind.

Regardless, I know I like his music. But it is interesting to know this stuff, and it is nice to admire someone for more than their talents.

[King Mark 3,631]

Agreed. I don't see how the Boston Pops thing is a strike against Williams. A few members of the orchestra hissed or something and he didn't want to deal with it. He never left anyways, so it wasn't a big deal.

I think there was an incident involving his song "America the Dream Goes On"

[Marian Schedenig 8,191]

Agreed. I don't see how the Boston Pops thing is a strike against Williams. A few members of the orchestra hissed or something and he didn't want to deal with it. He never left anyways, so it wasn't a big deal.

I think there was an incident involving his song "America the Dream Goes On"

And it's really not so hard to understand the orchestra's reaction.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Agreed. I don't see how the Boston Pops thing is a strike against Williams. A few members of the orchestra hissed or something and he didn't want to deal with it. He never left anyways, so it wasn't a big deal.

I think there was an incident involving his song "America the Dream Goes On"

And it's really not so hard to understand the orchestra's reaction.

I read somewhere that it was a custom of sorts for the orchestra to hiss a new piece or voice their opinions, I guess. Williams just overreacted.

This thread's title is underrated. It may be the greatest thread title in the history of the internet thus far.

[King Mark 3,631]

People sure "read" a lot of things I never did on this MB

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Well, it's perhaps a loose interpretation, but it does have some basis in text outside of a message board. And am I to assume you've "read" everything?

[Henry B 50]

Source?

On Williams walking out of a project? I can't remember for the life of me...that was from over a decade ago. Maybe someone here who's been around the block can corroborate.

Superman II?

[publicist 4,643]

Williams was, and is, a far cleverer PR man than others.

You can read between the lines, i. e. there was an old FSM issue with an article about a successful female agent, who told her story and alluded to the fact how people like Lionel Newman and Williams really bevahed condescensing and macho-like towards her because she was a woman. I don't see a big problem there (another time), but it surely is indicative of the fact that fanboy dreams about a whitewashed public image can be shattered very easily when you only dig deep enough.

As for Goldsmith, even when i was younger i sensed that he seemed insecure in interviews, which perfectly correlates with this supposed drinking problem. I mean, come on, insecure artist under a lot of stress...today, you maybe would meditate or practice yoga, but 1970, 1980?

[Melange 446]

Alcoholism is pretty common. I've got a funny mental image of a drunken Jerry getting frustrated with his Yamaha keyboard and smashing his half-full bottle of scotch over it, inadvertently getting the right wheezing electronic sound for his score to Link.

Or the "Splat" sound so often used in Rambo II and III

[Morn 8]

...Anyhow, I like a lot of Goldsmith's stuff although I admit to liking his '70s music the most, with exception of First Blood which to me was still scored in a '70s manner. Synths used very minimally. I love The Edge and Mulan from his '90s period even if they aren't as complex as his earlier material. His style was different than Williams and his influences were too. Goldsmith was much more influenced by Bartok, Berg and Stravinsky to my ears. Williams more Prokofiev, Elgar with a touch of Stravinsky, jazz, Ligeti (CEOT3K). Both wrote compelling, challenging, rewarding music. I don't care what they are like in real life. Most artists are irascible characters in truth.

I'd rather say Goldsmith is influenced by Alex North and Williams more Alfred Newman and Erich Wolfgang Korngold.

[Quintus 5,399]

Lukas has made a bunch more posts about JG and his alcoholic-ness and workaholic-ness over in the thread on FSM:

http://filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=69798

Never visit FSM, but I just skimmed over a bit of the discussion surrounding The Edge and holy shit - talk about over analysing! Some folk can't rest until they've sucked every last drop of possible ambiguity out of a creative work, I mean, not only is it anal, but it's downright ridiculous that everything has to be an absolute for these people.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

not really, he's scored a lineup of seriously bad films like AOTC, ROTS, Terminal, Munich. Neither had to take those assignments

"Seriously bad" according to you, high-profile to most film composers. If we're talking on that scale, scoring a massive blockbuster like KOTCS is like scoring KING SOLOMON'S MINES. Both are bad, but still they're light years apart in terms of public recognition, media coverage and, let's be frank here for a minute, money involved (salary-wise).

you can look at it that way, but KSM was never a big budget film with A-listers and bigtime director and writers, and yet KOTCS isn't any better than KSM and it had all the tools at its disposal to be a great movie and yet it failed.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,515]

Jerry always gave me the impression that he thought his job of film scoring was less than worthy or satisfactory to him, like it was beneath him, that is one reason why I prefer John Williams, and that John wrote better music in general.

If Williams had to score a lineup of films like BAD GIRLS or CHAIN REACTION, he would give this impression, too.

not really, he's scored a lineup of seriously bad films like AOTC, ROTS, Terminal, Munich. Neither had to take those assignments

I guess that it is not our beeswax to ask why certain projects are scored by certain composers, but rather to enjoy (or not) the music which is produced by these projects. Take "The Swarm", for example: a bad film maybe, but if J.G. has not composed the music for it, then we would have not heard one of the very best J.G. scores ever...Why people score what they score is their business, and we have no right to question their decisions.