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Does anyone agree that wailing voices in film music is the worst type of music ,the worst of all is when there is arab sounding voices on a film that does`nt require it at all,makes me cringe hearing it in a film,thank god i have`nt got that sorta music on ost.That sorta sound as been going on for years now,i blame hans zimmer lol.

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Does anyone agree that wailing voices in film music is the worst type of music ,the worst of all is when there is arab sounding voices on a film that does`nt require it at all,makes me cringe hearing it in a film,thank god i have`nt got that sorta music on ost.That sorta sound as been going on for years now,i blame hans zimmer lol.

I would agree with this, but I also think that the female voice on "Minority Report" adds an emotional depth to the score, giving Agatha a "voice" of her own.

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Who doesn't like a sexy wailing woman to a score?

Who doesn't like to score a sexy wailing woman?

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The only time I think I've ever thought this worked well was in "Shutting Down Grace's Lab". It was a bit overdramatic in the movie, but the music itself sounds fine.

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Who doesn't like a sexy wailing woman to a score?

Listen to Yared's Troy and you might change your mind. :)

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I think it effectively works in "Padmé's Ruminations".

Ugh, I find that cue unlistenable on album, and awkward in the movie. I recall my dad's comment when he first saw RotS. "Apparently, John Williams collaborated with Yoko Ono for this scene." :)

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It can be used well and has been on many occasions, but it's been so overused at this point that it has become annoying and cliched. You could say literally the exact same thing about synths, which Zimmer and co. also frequently use.

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I don't really see the connection. A wailing voice is a style of singing. A synth is just an instrument. Like an orchestra it can be used for an endless range of styles.

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I think Red Rabbit is referring to when a synth is used as a purely electronic sound, more of a sound effect than an instrument.

Well, I think it would only make sense if it was a very specific sound, like an overused factory preset or something, because 'sound effects' can be anything what you want it to be. If everyone started using 'scraped gongs' in their horror scores, yes, then we'll get tired of that. Or the 'Sarrar' sound of the Fairlight CMI in the '80s. Or violing screeches a la Psycho.

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I love that wailing vocal in AotC when Dooku meets Sidious.

I also think it can be used to great effect when used properly - preety much like any instrument or technique. The problem - as usual - is that composers, especially in Holywood, rarely write anything inspired and/or complex, but are expected to regurgitate old ideas that sooner or later become clishes. The same happened to wailing vocal, which on its own isn't bad musical concept at all.

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I love that wailing vocal in AotC when Dooku meets Sidious.

I also think it can be used to great effect when used properly - preety much like any instrument or technique. The problem - as usual - is that composers, especially in Holywood, rarely write anything inspired and/or complex, but are expected to regurgitate old ideas that sooner or later become clishes. The same happened to wailing vocal, which on its own isn't bad musical concept at all.

That solo part in AotC has always sounded more operatic singing than Middle Eastern wailing to me.

And it really depends on the film whether the "wailing" singing style fits. It has become something of a cliché in Hollywood scoring but it does sound appropriate in some films like Minority Report where it has no Middle Eastern connection but dramatic connection to the tragedy of Anne Lively expressing pain and ghostly horror. In Munich the music fits the setting of the story and is musically very affecting and not irritating at all. In ROTS it feels very contrived, just another gimmick from Lucas' bag of tricks he felt would add cool new musical stylings to the film.

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In ROTS it feels very contrived, just another gimmick from Lucas' bag of tricks he felt would add cool new musical stylings to the film.

You think Lucas asked Williams for a wailing voice because it's hip?

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.... when there is arab sounding voices on a film that does`nt require it at all

Quite an assumption in itself,as the so called 'wailing' is sometimes from ancient musical singing traditions from within Europe.

Quint's answer is best, that sometimes it works brilliantly but yes has been overused at times.

But I guess there are always musical trends within soundtracks of each era.

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I'm not a big fan of it generally - it's like the composer/director is trying too hard to convey the emotion.

One place I hate it is in Requiem for the Fallen in Torchwood: Children of Earth. Everything about that scene reeks of cliche and the music added such a mucusy layer.

Also, Montage from Hidalgo. Ugh. I don't get why it's so highly praised. That solo voice is annoying.

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In ROTS it feels very contrived, just another gimmick from Lucas' bag of tricks he felt would add cool new musical stylings to the film.

You think Lucas asked Williams for a wailing voice because it's hip?

Yeap.

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I did a quick scan of the replies, and I did not see a comment regarding this (I apologize, if incorrect)

Theodore Shapiro's score to "Tropic Thunder" utilized this cliche to comic perfection.

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I thought about posting that. The thing with Tropic Thunder, the score is truly a good score in its own right. You could throw that on an actual war film and it'd be Oscar worthy. Love the Lisbeth Scott vocals, I was the only one in the theater laughing at the score.

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The wailing voice works extremely well in Gladiator (Zimmer), Munich (Williams), and La Luz Prodigiosa (Morricone).

Nah, I always thought it came off as awkward in Munich. It makes the sex scene hard to take seriously. We watched it in class, and the whole class laughed, not because of the sex, but because of the wailing during that scene.

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I think Red Rabbit is referring to when a synth is used as a purely electronic sound, more of a sound effect than an instrument.

That's what I meant, yeah.

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Sigh ... As I already replied to that, it doesn't make sense, unless always the same 'preset' is used. It's a bad comparison because a wailing voice has much more definitive characteristics while synth effects can be anything you want them to be.

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Sigh ... As I already replied to that, it doesn't make sense, unless always the same 'preset' is used. It's a bad comparison because a wailing voice has much more definitive characteristics while synth effects can be anything you want them to be.

It's not the sound itself so much as it is the use of the effect. Any time a composer uses a synth in such an obvious/overbearing way it is comparable to the way they use the wailing voice (which are both mostly associated with MV composers).

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Synths can be at the very forefront of the soundscape and not even the most hardcore Zimmer hater will have a problem with it if they're used certain ways. Who here wept at Williams' fall to the dark side when they heard him use synth celeste as the signature sound for HP:SS? I certainly didn't...synths were the best choice to get the dexterity and the control over the sound, and the result still sounds acoustic. It's all about how the synths are used. Zimmer tends to slather them on like an overly liberal greasing of hair gel, and although the results may seem slick from a distance or at first glance, they can get old pretty fast.

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Does anyone agree that wailing voices in film music is the worst type of music ,the worst of all is when there is arab sounding voices on a film that does`nt require it at all,makes me cringe hearing it in a film,thank god i have`nt got that sorta music on ost.That sorta sound as been going on for years now,i blame hans zimmer lol.

I would agree with this, but I also think that the female voice on "Minority Report" adds an emotional depth to the score, giving Agatha a "voice" of her own.

And John Williams uses is also in Star Wars III, and it works. But I get what you mean, it can sound very tasteless when used a lot, if used sparingly it can be quite lovely, like anything, too much of it is a bad thing.

Does anyone agree that wailing voices in film music is the worst type of music ,the worst of all is when there is arab sounding voices on a film that does`nt require it at all,makes me cringe hearing it in a film,thank god i have`nt got that sorta music on ost.That sorta sound as been going on for years now,i blame hans zimmer lol.

I would agree with this, but I also think that the female voice on "Minority Report" adds an emotional depth to the score, giving Agatha a "voice" of her own.

And John Williams uses is also in Star Wars III, and it works. But I get what you mean, it can sound very tasteless when used a lot, if used sparingly it can be quite lovely, like anything, too much of it is a bad thing.

This 'wailing' is called Melismas for the record. Derives from Arabic traditions and even used in Flamenco music styles nowadays... maybe it should remain there for the majority of the time!? lol :beerchug:

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My favorite use of it is actually in Zimmer's "Prince of Egypt". He used an Israeli woman named Ofra Haza, who in my opinion, had one of the best voices of our time until her untimely death in 2000. She also sang a song in the film. But here's an example of her "wailing", used during a scene of a character wandering and losing himself in the desert, abandoning all he ever knew:

(skip to four minutes in)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfrrHkZhNLs

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In ROTS it feels very contrived, just another gimmick from Lucas' bag of tricks he felt would add cool new musical stylings to the film.

You think Lucas asked Williams for a wailing voice because it's hip?

Yeap.

i also think so. That's not something Williams would score this way normally

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In ROTS it feels very contrived, just another gimmick from Lucas' bag of tricks he felt would add cool new musical stylings to the film.

You think Lucas asked Williams for a wailing voice because it's hip?

Yeap.

i also think so. That's not something Williams would score this way normally

Of course not, because we obviously know Williams' musical thought processes more than the man himself! I mean, it's not like he used it in another score that very same year. Oh wait... guess George Lucas butted in on Munich too.

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My favorite use of it is actually in Zimmer's "Prince of Egypt". He used an Israeli woman named Ofra Haza, who in my opinion, had one of the best voices of our time until her untimely death in 2000. She also sang a song in the film. But here's an example of her "wailing", used during a scene of a character wandering and losing himself in the desert, abandoning all he ever knew: (skip to four minutes in)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfrrHkZhNLs

Wonderful stuff. I was aware of her work (mostly her early works) but didn't know she'd been involved in film scores. If there was ever yet another version of Ben Hur made for film, inclusion of this kind of sound within the score given the geographical settings involved, would make it superb. One like this that has always been a favourite, is the awesome 'Tales of the Future 'from Bladerunner.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebDYbpsIemY

And the eternally evokative 'Damask Rose'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=murpBzpGCKo&feature=related

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In ROTS it feels very contrived, just another gimmick from Lucas' bag of tricks he felt would add cool new musical stylings to the film.

You think Lucas asked Williams for a wailing voice because it's hip?

Yeap.

i also think so. That's not something Williams would score this way normally

Of course not, because we obviously know Williams' musical thought processes more than the man himself! I mean, it's not like he used it in another score that very same year. Oh wait... guess George Lucas butted in on Munich too.

On the set of Minority Report

George Lucas barges onto the set. Hey Stevie, you gotta have the wailing woman in this. Its hip!

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On the set of Minority Report

George Lucas barges onto the set. Hey Stevie, you gotta have the wailing woman in this. Its hip!

Williams actually says on the DVD extras that the use of a vocalist to represent Anne Lively in Minority Report was Spielberg's idea and suggestion.

But I am sure Lucas could be the mastermind behind it somehow, bullying poor Steven into all kinds of things by constantly nagging and nagging until he says yes in exhaustion.

I am not making any claims of knowing how Williams thinks or downplaying his personal creativity (he has gotten more adventurous with his music in the past decade) but certainly he is as vulnerable as the next composer to the trends and ideas of the directors he works for.

And to me it feels that the use of the lone ululating female voice in ROTS might not have been Williams' first instinct if he had had free hand in composing for that scene. But as you guys say perhaps it was all JWs idea. I trust him to be inventive and innovative when need be.

Oh and Koray, you actually think ROTS affected Munich so heavily that the single scene created an urge to use the vocals again in a score that is ethnically Arabic/Middle Eastern? Might be a natural impulse wouldn't you say and not because it was composed the same year.

For some really blood curdling wailing voices people should listen to Gabriel Yared's rejected score for Troy which has certainly authentic sounding female soloists singing songs of mourning and lamentation. Belongs more to the world of diegetic music but is still pretty hair raising.

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I actually kind of like the wailing voice in Minority Report.

Padme's Ruminations isn't a bad track, but it doesn't suit the movie at all. It's more comfortable in, say, the Memoirs of a Geisha universe.

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My favorite use of it is actually in Zimmer's "Prince of Egypt". He used an Israeli woman named Ofra Haza, who in my opinion, had one of the best voices of our time until her untimely death in 2000. She also sang a song in the film. But here's an example of her "wailing", used during a scene of a character wandering and losing himself in the desert, abandoning all he ever knew: (skip to four minutes in)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfrrHkZhNLs

Wonderful stuff. I was aware of her work (mostly her early works) but didn't know she'd been involved in film scores.

Yeah, within the last couple years of her life. She also provided vocals on the film "The Governess" and some foreign film that I can't remember the name of. She was actually supposed to do the vocals for the score of "Gladiator", but then she died.

You really must check out her later works - it's amazing what that little (yet proud) voice in that video you linked to turned into:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlIJOAZ1pak

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For some really blood curdling wailing voices people should listen to Gabriel Yared's rejected score for Troy which has certainly authentic sounding female soloists singing songs of mourning and lamentation. Belongs more to the world of diegetic music but is still pretty hair raising.

Indeed. It's quite chilling and effective.

Love that score as a whole, by the way.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlIJOAZ1pak

Ah yes, a beautiful song that one.

Are you familar with Fairuz, the famous Christian Lebanese singer?

I kept hearing her work on my middle east journey, and folks were always giving me free CDs of hers :lol:

I recognized the name, and then remembered that Shakira had sung her song "A' atiny El Naya" as an intro to her last world tour. Those links above, though, are the first I've heard of Fairuz herself, and she does have a very unique voice. It's interesting in that first video how it's almost like she's in a trace.

Here's one of Ofra's pieces from the film "The Governess":

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Yeah. I totally hate it. It's a terrible cliche that tends to be fairly annoying and devoid of emotion.

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It's interesting in that first video how it's almost like she's in a trace.

Yep, that particular song is remembering her husband who died (theoretical one for the song) and about her loss.

Here's one of Ofra's pieces from the film "The Governess":

When it began, my response was - "Oh this is certainly my cup of tea, this".

And then the melody kicked in, and it was recognized immediately.

It's in instrumental form on a CD of Sephardic Romances (Link) that I have.

On the Amazon Audio Samples, it is Number 6 (Si Verias)

Cheers for posting that even more haunting version of it :lol:

As a Scooby Snack..........one which has that kind of musical element in it.

Gardens of Delight, from the Alexander Soundtrack.

It's lounging on heaps of silken cushions with your favourite concubines, being fed grapes while being given an oil massage, this one :lol:

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I like the munich piece.

I dont mind when wailing voices are in middle east scores.

When it does fit, it's akward.

Like that middle east music in the Nevada dessert of Elfman's HULK.

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Yep, that particular song is remembering her husband who died (theoretical one for the song) and about her loss.

Wow... well it sure worked!

When it began, my response was - "Oh this is certainly my cup of tea, this".

And then the melody kicked in, and it was recognized immediately.

It's in instrumental form on a CD of Sephardic Romances (Link) that I have.

On the Amazon Audio Samples, it is Number 6 (Si Verias)

Cheers for posting that even more haunting version of it :cool:

Well what do you know! That's quite interesting. As far as I know, the film does have heavy tones of Judaism to it, so I suppose it would make sense to use Sephardic music in the score. Thanks a bunch for pointing that out, very interesting indeed. Of course, Ofra's voice in the movie's version makes it all the better!

As a Scooby Snack..........one which has that kind of musical element in it.

Gardens of Delight, from the Alexander Soundtrack.

It's lounging on heaps of silken cushions with your favourite concubines, being fed grapes while being given an oil massage, this one :)

That piece from Alexander is very nice. I was picturing more of an ancient temple for the first minute or so, but when the drums kicked in, I could indeed picture one enjoying the luxuries of ancient days. I also like how in the latter half of the song, there's more of a Mid-East choir than an actual soloist. My favorite types of music are choral, orchestral, and Middle Eastern, so any combination of the three is always welcome.

Here's another piece from Governess, this time featuring the film's main theme on a violin a couple minutes or so in (usually in the score it's played much more warmly and not as haunting, but I can't find any examples of it on Youtube... not a very well known score, unfortunaely). Nevertheless:

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