Intrada presents Spacecamp

[OneBuckFilms 319]

Delorean:

I almost feel like my issue with Thor's ideology takes a slightly different slant from most. Frankly, Thor, I'm a bit confused as to why you buy an album of music, or what you like about music in general. Particularly your comments on the Star Wars Anthology are baffling, because some major music from these works wasn't available until Disc 4. You're telling me that you rarely (if ever) listen to "Carbon Freeze"?

That's right. I have no particular need for that piece - or any other unreleased piece - as long as the representation I've got works as a fluid listening experience. Remember - I NEVER use the film as a frame-of-reference when enjoying soundtracks. Never.

It's as though you're trying to place film music in a pop box--the artist writes a bunch of tunes, and the ones they like the best make the cut--it's all for the goal of an album.

Yup, that is exactly what I think (pop music, classical, electronic, you name it), and it has been the ideology of soundtrack producers for many decades. It is only in the last decade or so that the C&C ideology has spread like wildfire.

When I buy a score album, I want to hear the music that the composer wrote for the film, straight up.

That's fine if you do. I, however, don't.

If he wants to revisit it on album, that's nice and I welcome the alternate experience, but in the world of film scores, we don't have the same kind of opportunity for both preservation and tinkering as some other genres.

I don't think there should be any more tinkering there than other genres. Except by the album producer when he prepares a listening program for us.

What do you think, by the way, of Intrada's approach that they tried with The Mean Season? You had the album experience, with all remaining cues off to the side, and those that are willing can resequence it in chronological order--and it costs the regular $20. Not every score could be done this way at the same price, but when they can, do find that to be satisfactory?

It's an OK compromise solution. It's only when you do the same across more CD's (and consequently higher price) that I don't like it. I would prefer two separate soundtrack releases, though.

Onebuckfilms:

Thor, virtually every thread this issue comes up, it is usually rooted in a comment to the effect that you don't want the score in the C & C form, or congratulating a re-issue of an existing Album release (as in this very thread) specifically for producing an Album presentation.

Of course. It is part of who I am and what I think about soundtracks. It will inevitably be part of my criticism if a score I have a relationship to is presented in a format I like/dislike. Just like when you guys complain about given cues that have been left off the soundtrack. It's kinda hard to leave it out, and I see no reason why I should. Album presentation is one out of many facets that warrants commenting - in addition to the music itself, the performance, the sound quality and so on.

The history is something I've seen through the posts I've observed since joining FSM a year or two back, and did I not also state that my OWN experience of debating you was healthy and friendly?

Your reputation is one largely of your own making here, and like anyone else, I can only speak to what I observe in both your writings, and other's replies.

Indeed, and if you've paid attention, you'll see that it is always a question of me receiving tons of personal offenses (not necessarily by you, but by many others) for just having a different taste in things. I never initiate these things; it's always a question of over-defensive people with low tolerance levels for opposing preferences.

Thor, you're not getting it. Being hit over the head with a broken record is irritating, and constantly bringing up one issue is going to generate a backlash.

I feel like you're fishing for it.

Great to have this out (I was on holiday and just barely caught in time), so that I can chuck the ol' CD-R of the Japanese CD in the trash bin. And even BETTER to see that it is NOT C&C and that they have kept the original LP program, in remastered format.

Applause to Intrada!

I never initiate these things; it's always a question of over-defensive people with low tolerance levels for opposing preferences.

I...never...initiate...whatever.

Thor, since you don't like complete and chronological, I won't tell you how I really feel about you. I'll just leave you with this:

Oh yeah....I forgot - I actually applauded Intrada for releasing a CD that catered to my taste.

Oh my, the controversy! The outrage! THE HUMANITY!

Yep, the line was cast ...

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

My order hasn't been fulfilled yet, but Intrada were a bit slow with me for Predator too.

[Frank Vincent 234]

There seems to be problems with the release. From the FSM message board:

Well, there's one small issue for me. There's a second to second and a half missing from "Max Finds Courage" at :30 in. There's a bump there that wasn't on the SLC release. Not sure if it's a mistake or not.

Is there also an error in "In Orbit"?

Hm. On my copy, the left channel drops out for a moment around 1:20. I presume you're hearing the same thing on your copy.

[John Crichton 4]

Listening to Training Montage for the first time...

Wow.

Still waiting for mine but I knew mine would arrive later this time since I ordered through SAE, out of habit more than anything else.

[Jay 37,363]

I still haven't even received a shipping notice from Intrada despite immediately getting an order acknowledgment from them when I ordered it at 1005pm on Monday. Grumble.

[Incanus 5,714]

My order hasn't been fulfilled yet, but Intrada were a bit slow with me for Predator too.

Yeah I still waiting for my order to be fulfilled as well. They have usually been very fast and reliable at Intrada though.

I would very much like to hear opinions of those who have already gotten it. Both of those who have heard it before and especially those who haven't.

And how are the linernotes?

[John Crichton 4]

I still haven't even received a shipping notice from Intrada despite immediately getting an order acknowledgment from them when I ordered it at 1005pm on Monday. Grumble.

That happens to me a lot too. Order early, but still end up on the bottom of the shipping pile.

[King Mark 3,631]

Got mine from SAE.Easier to pay with PayPal

[Thor 7,504]

Sorry for the quote-o-rama here. I'm trying to respond to everyone in the same post!

tell me how that gives you emotion, the film gives you emotion, listen to Desert Chase by itself, without Indy or anybody else being in peril you wouldnt know whats going on or feel the emotion, thats why i dont like classical music, but love film music

When I hear "Desert Chase", I don't think about Indy in peril (or at least try not to), but rather some kind of frenetic action sequence that can be about anything. That's the power of music alone. It doesn't have to be connected to one specific thing. I don't listen to film music any differently than I do classical or pop.

Indeed, and if you've paid attention, you'll see that it is always a question of me receiving tons of personal offenses (not necessarily by you, but by many others) for just having a different taste in things. I never initiate these things; it's always a question of over-defensive people with low tolerance levels for opposing preferences.

No,it's more that you make no sense whatsoever in some of your arguments. In that respect I think it's just a slightly delusional obsession you have so it's not worth debating you because when your cornered you revert to not making any sense.

I don't make sense to you because it's not YOUR preference. That's all it is. So you feel that as "threatening" to your own taste somehow (though I have no idea why) and revert to personal attacks like "delusional obsession", which is neither here nor there.

But see, I'm not talking about the film--I'm talking about the piece of music itself. The "film as a frame-of-reference" issue may apply to the "relive the film" crowd, but all I care about is the quality of music--is it music I want to hear? I enjoy the way music and film work together, but with regards to pointing out unreleased cues I want, the film functions more or less as a radio, alerting me to the existence of a piece of music that I want to be able to revisit.

That's fine. To me, however, the film plays NO part. In fact, I own soundtracks to LOTS of films I've never seen. It may happen once in a blue moon that I hear a piece of music in a film and then later discover that it's not on disc, but it doesn't bother me much. I'm in it for singular ALBUM EXPERIENCE, not bits and pieces. That album experience is an independent entity with an independent musical story to tell. For the most time, I'm blissfully unaware of whatever music was or wasn't in the film. That's not why I listen to soundtracks in the first place.

Again, I think you're definitely downplaying the constraints of album space and financial feasibility. I think it's perfectly reasonable--and wise!--to artfully move around the cues when you're having to select excerpts from a score. I can even enjoy the album presentation; I am greatly enjoying the expanded Batman, but there are also things I can enjoy from the album presentation, such as going from "The Bat Cave" to "The Joker's Poem." I'll even acknowledge that some of the greatest film composers have favored album reworkings, but I don't think it's so much that the C & C ideology has so much spread in the last ten years as it has been made more feasible.

I don't know. We never talked about this in the 90's, as far as I can recall, even though CD's had been around for a long time. I think it has more to do with the availability of music combined with the fact that these niche labels are run by fans who came to the interest through the FILMS themselves, not purely through music like myself (and others like me).

At this point, the thing that's making least sense for me in all of this is the apparent emphasis on form at the expense of content: I'm just not making sense of the seeming inability to allow in any more quality music from a given work once you've heard it in one form.

To me, form IS content in many ways. Also, I don't have so much problem with including more music as I have with HOW that music is arranged. Sometimes, though, it is necessary to weed out certain musical bits that either aren't very interesting or don't add anything to the overall listening experience. These are the choices that the composer/producer should make.

Thor, you're not getting it. Being hit over the head with a broken record is irritating, and constantly bringing up one issue is going to generate a backlash.

I feel like you're fishing for it.

Hardly. The view comes up often because labels keep releasing scores I like in a format I don't like. Easy as that. What would the alternative be? Just shut up about it because certain people can't tolerate a different approach to things? I'm sorry, but that's your problem, not mine.

We already agreed to disagree on this at another board, Onebuckfilms, and I'm a bit disappointed that you don't respect that mutual agreement. As you see, we come from two radical different places, so there's no way we can ever come to terms. I will not start liking C&C more and you will not start liking album presentations more, no matter how much we debate this.

Preferences are UN-DEBATABLE. That's the really the gist of this whole thing.

[Incanus 5,714]

More Space Camp, less album experience VS complete presentation!

[Quintus 5,399]

Hardly. The view comes up often because labels keep releasing scores I like in a format I don't like. Easy as that. What would the alternative be? Just shut up about it because certain people can't tolerate a different approach to things? I'm sorry, but that's your problem, not mine.

No Thor, it's your problem. Most people are clearly very happy to have as much music as possible. I think it's safe to you're in a minority, therefore it is your problem - everyone else is happy and you are not, see?

I agree with Buck: you were fishing. Methinks you like the sound of your own voice and you're perfectly happy to repeat yourself over and over and over and over...

Perhaps it's time you change the record? If I was made aware of the fact that I annoy the people I'm conversing with, I'd attempt to rectify it and try another approach. But it seems you're not interested in that.

You seem to act surprised when people have a go at you, indeed you attempt utilise the age old trick of turning something around and placing the problem or "fault" on another, as though it is their personal failing - not yours, but I think people here see through that as the defence mechanism that it is. In the end you dig yourself into a hole. It happens a lot, when you go online, right?

Hmm, I wonder who has the problem...

[Thor 7,504]

No Thor, it's your problem. Most people are clearly very happy to have as much music as possible. I think it's safe to you're in a minority, therefore it is your problem - everyone else is happy and you are not, see?

That niche labels don't usually cater to my interest is indeed my problem. That you have zero tolerance for opposing preferences, however, is entirely yours. I have no problem with you preferring C&C releases. So why do you have a problem with me preferring album arrangements?

You seem to act surprised when people have a go at you, indeed you attempt utilise the age old trick of turning something around and placing the problem or "fault" on another, as though it is their personal failing - not yours, but I think people here see through that as the defence mechanism that it is. In the end you dig yourself into a hole. It happens a lot, when you go online, right?

Why don't you just backtrack to my first post here, and see for yourself? All I did was to say how happy I was that Intrada released an album that catered to my taste. That's it. No more, no less. Is that "fishing for trouble"? The ensuing debate is only because certain people can't accept that; as if my taste is somehow a threat to their own. I've spent the entire time answering people who question my taste, something that shouldn't really be necessary. So yeah, you tell me where the fault for this derailing lies.

[Quintus 5,399]

If you remember, I initially defended your contributions??

What does it tell you, after reading your subsequent posts, that I am now in stern disagreement with you? You're blind to the grevious way in which you present your argument and to compound matters you continue to act all "hard done by" and wronged. You continue to wonder why people take issue with you, it's quite astounding. I'm not making this shit up. But who am I to say? Carry on.

[Thor 7,504]

If you remember, I initially defended your contributions??

What does it tell you, after reading your subsequent posts, that I am now in stern disagreement with you? You're blind to the grevious way in which you present your argument and to compound matters you continue to act all "hard done by" and wronged. You continue to wonder why people take issue with you, it's quite astounding. I'm not making this shit up. But who am I to say? Carry on.

So...you'd rather just have people criticizing my taste, but not allowing me the opportunity to answer back?

As I said early on, I would be more than happy to just say my piece and let that be that. As it should be in any normal environment. "I like pizza!", "well, I don't" we say, and usually move on. We don't make long debates out of it. However, things are somehow different here.

You haven't yet answered my question: What is the big problem with me preferring album arrangements?

[Quintus 5,399]

As I said early on, I would be more than happy to just say my piece and let that be that...However, things are somehow different here.

Oh you mean you would prefer to have the last word on everything? You would prefer it if nobody took you to task? Okay, I see.

You haven't yet answered my question: What is the big problem with me preferring album arrangements?

As stated, I have no problem with it, in fact as I've already said, I'd agree with you in some cases.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I also prefer watching an abridged 5 minute clip of a porno. Really, who the hell has the time or patience to watch a full 25 minute video?

[Thor 7,504]

Oh you mean you would prefer to have the last word on everything? You would prefer it if nobody took you to task? Okay, I see.

First of all, I don't understand why one should "be taken to task" for having a different taste/preference/approach to soundtracks.

Second, if a discussion ensues, everyone wants to have the last word in. You do, I do. So I could just as easily turn the table and ask "why don't you leave it be?". After all, we're talking preference here, and no amount of debate can change anything.

As stated, I have no problem with it, in fact as I've already said, I'd agree with you in some cases.

Great! Then I have no idea why we're having this discussion.

[A24 4,333]

I don't know if it's me but lately I missing some kind of musical narrative in Williams' soundtracks. The double vinyl of Star Wars, the original albums of E.T. or Close Encounters, Empire Of The Sun, ... The tracks aren't chronologically ordered and the albums don't contain all the music but my god, as albums, they stand on their own two feet while still evoking the film they were written for.

[Thor 7,504]

I don't know if it's me but lately I missing some kind of musical narrative in Williams' soundtracks. The double vinyl of Star Wars, the original albums of E.T. or Close Encounters, Empire Of The Sun, ... The tracks aren't chronologically ordered and the albums don't contain all the music but my god, as albums, they stand on their own two feet while still evoking the film they were written for.

That's my exact feeling too, which is why I sold off all my expansions of those scores (except EMPIRE, which has none) recently. Those original albums are the ones I keep returning to, and those are the ones I want to keep for eternity.

As far as SPACECAMP is concerned (trying to get this back on-topic), that's not a score I listen to very much in the first place, so I think they could even weed out some of the more "non-directional" cues that remind me of the "cloud" music from ALWAYS. I think it could easily lose some 8-10 minutes in order to be a more succinct listening experience. But it's pretty good as it is too.

[Richard Penna 3,688]

You haven't yet answered my question: What is the big problem with me preferring album arrangements?

I know this was directed at someone else, but I'm going to address it anyway.

Nothing at all wrong with preferring an album arrangement, but hoping that C&C editions never come out is bordering on selfish IMO. What about Intrada's new format of presenting an experience, with additional material as bonus tracks - does that meet your standards?

I've rejected rather a lot of promos/boots in favour of the composer's arrangement. However, I am still happy that those who would like more material can have access to it - you don't seem to be as happy with those situations. Is it really hard to believe that when a composer creates a CD, they'e not going to satisfy everyone in terms of what's included?

[Thor 7,504]

Nothing at all wrong with preferring an album arrangement, but hoping that C&C editions never come out is bordering on selfish IMO. What about Intrada's new format of presenting an experience, with additional material as bonus tracks - does that meet your standards?

As I said above - it's an OK compromise solution. The problem only occurs when you spread it out across two or more CD's, thus forcing the price up.

Also, I've not said that I hope C&C editions never come out. If you have TWO simultanous album presentations - one C&C and one album - that is perfectly fine in my book. Unfortunately, however, that is rarely possible. So you have to make a choice on what you would like to see out there. And my choice is always album presentations.

Preferences ARE selfish. That's the very definition of what they are.

Is it really hard to believe that when a composer creates a CD, they'e not going to satisfy everyone in terms of what's included?

Indeed they're not, just as their music isn't going to please everyone. Just as the performance isn't going to please everyone. Just as the sound quality isn't going to please everyone. That's the nature of artistic creation. The artist creates it, and then it's up to us whether we like it or not.

[Faleel 5,348]

Nothing at all wrong with preferring an album arrangement, but hoping that C&C editions never come out is bordering on selfish IMO. What about Intrada's new format of presenting an experience, with additional material as bonus tracks - does that meet your standards?

As I said above - it's an OK compromise solution. The problem only occurs when you spread it out across two or more CD's, thus forcing the price up.

Also, I've not said that I hope C&C editions never come out. If you have TWO simultanous album presentations - one C&C and one album - that is perfectly fine in my book. Unfortunately, however, that is rarely possible. So you have to make a choice on what you would like to see out there. And my choice is always album presentations.

Preferences ARE selfish. That's the very definition of what they are.

Is it really hard to believe that when a composer creates a CD, they'e not going to satisfy everyone in terms of what's included?

Indeed they're not, just as their music isn't going to please everyone. Just as the performance isn't going to please everyone. Just as the sound quality isn't going to please everyone. That's the nature of artistic creation. The artist creates it, and then it's up to us whether we like it or not.

i have a question: if you got a soundtrack OST and there was nothing on it but silence, and it was not a defect but "Artistic License", would you be happy with the "Album Representation"?

[Thor 7,504]

i have a question: if you got a soundtrack OST and there was nothing on it but silence, and it was not a defect but "Artistic License", would you be happy with the "Album Representation"?

He, he....great question.

No, of course I wouldn't. Because in that case it wouldn't be a good RE-presentation of the score (unless it was the soundtrack to a film without score).

I don't consider the Meco versions of STAR WARS a representative soundtrack album either. More of a curiousity.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

I like turtles.

[Ollie 1,059]

There seems to be problems with the release. From the FSM message board:

Well, there's one small issue for me. There's a second to second and a half missing from "Max Finds Courage" at :30 in. There's a bump there that wasn't on the SLC release. Not sure if it's a mistake or not.

Is there also an error in "In Orbit"?

Hm. On my copy, the left channel drops out for a moment around 1:20. I presume you're hearing the same thing on your copy.

There glitch in the Orbit cue is also present on the original CD, in the same spot.

Intrada is aware of the other glitch and will look into it.

[Delorean90 42]

It's becoming much clearer the wide differences in the way we're thinking about this, Thor, so I'm gonna just drop a few last responses and let this one go.

But see, I'm not talking about the film--I'm talking about the piece of music itself. The "film as a frame-of-reference" issue may apply to the "relive the film" crowd, but all I care about is the quality of music--is it music I want to hear? I enjoy the way music and film work together, but with regards to pointing out unreleased cues I want, the film functions more or less as a radio, alerting me to the existence of a piece of music that I want to be able to revisit.

That's fine. To me, however, the film plays NO part. In fact, I own soundtracks to LOTS of films I've never seen. It may happen once in a blue moon that I hear a piece of music in a film and then later discover that it's not on disc, but it doesn't bother me much. I'm in it for singular ALBUM EXPERIENCE, not bits and pieces. That album experience is an independent entity with an independent musical story to tell. For the most time, I'm blissfully unaware of whatever music was or wasn't in the film. That's not why I listen to soundtracks in the first place.

That can even work for me sometimes--in the case of Monsignor, I enjoy the album presentation, and am never going to see the film, and so when I found that essentially the remaining unreleased music is restatements of the theme, I was pretty okay with having what we've got. That said, I am still curious as to how it works in the original cue order.

I do think you're taking the independence of an album in a much farther degree than even the composers which agree with your stance to one extent or another--I can't think of any composers that have totally altered their titles so as to distance themselves from what the film is, and frequently they even refer to how the themes function to whom or to what they relate. And maybe you're aware of that and don't really care, but I do believe at that point you're beyond the "the composers agree with me" phase.

At this point, the thing that's making least sense for me in all of this is the apparent emphasis on form at the expense of content: I'm just not making sense of the seeming inability to allow in any more quality music from a given work once you've heard it in one form.

To me, form IS content in many ways. Also, I don't have so much problem with including more music as I have with HOW that music is arranged. Sometimes, though, it is necessary to weed out certain musical bits that either aren't very interesting or don't add anything to the overall listening experience. These are the choices that the composer/producer should make.

To a certain degree, I understand what you mean, in that the form can effect the way the music comes across, but nevertheless, when I say content I am speaking of the actual musical pieces that the composer wrote and recorded to make up this particular work. I can agree in rare instances that, say, a five second stinger cue would be best left off, or at the least combined with another cue in a relevant and interesting way. But our whole way of listening seems to be different. You tend to mention often (not so much here as at FSM) that film score is a different genre, and I agree, but after that, we part ways. You seem to think that because of this, it must be altered to fit your preconceptions based on pop and classical albums, whereas I am happy to enjoy the interesting ways that the great film composers have managed to work within and around the unique challenges and requirements of the film score genre in a musical way. I like film music, on its own merits. I too own very many scores that I have never seen the accompanying films for, and may still never. This is where I differ from a lot of the people that favor C & C--I don't need to revisit the film experience through album, I want to enjoy the experience of the full original work on its own merits--not the merits of the film or the way it works, and not the merits of some other experience it's been altered to become, but the original work that was written and recorded by the composer. The bottom line is that, as enjoyable as an album presentation can be, too often it leaves us without the ability to listen to some wonderful work in the composer's canon, and that is not a favorable prospect to me.

One last thought: You very often mention that preferences are by nature selfish, and tend to require someone to not get what they want. And yet this is where your much-loved pizza analogy breaks down: One guy preferring veggie pizza does not keep me from getting my sausage pizza. So if you're gonna keep going on this route, perhaps a better analogy would be in order?

[Incanus 5,714]

Less pizza analogies, more Space Camp!

[Quintus 5,399]

Space Camp can wait, I want fabricated half-inch pipe analogies!

[OneBuckFilms 319]

Sorry for the quote-o-rama here. I'm trying to respond to everyone in the same post!

tell me how that gives you emotion, the film gives you emotion, listen to Desert Chase by itself, without Indy or anybody else being in peril you wouldnt know whats going on or feel the emotion, thats why i dont like classical music, but love film music

When I hear "Desert Chase", I don't think about Indy in peril (or at least try not to), but rather some kind of frenetic action sequence that can be about anything. That's the power of music alone. It doesn't have to be connected to one specific thing. I don't listen to film music any differently than I do classical or pop.

Indeed, and if you've paid attention, you'll see that it is always a question of me receiving tons of personal offenses (not necessarily by you, but by many others) for just having a different taste in things. I never initiate these things; it's always a question of over-defensive people with low tolerance levels for opposing preferences.

No,it's more that you make no sense whatsoever in some of your arguments. In that respect I think it's just a slightly delusional obsession you have so it's not worth debating you because when your cornered you revert to not making any sense.

I don't make sense to you because it's not YOUR preference. That's all it is. So you feel that as "threatening" to your own taste somehow (though I have no idea why) and revert to personal attacks like "delusional obsession", which is neither here nor there.

But see, I'm not talking about the film--I'm talking about the piece of music itself. The "film as a frame-of-reference" issue may apply to the "relive the film" crowd, but all I care about is the quality of music--is it music I want to hear? I enjoy the way music and film work together, but with regards to pointing out unreleased cues I want, the film functions more or less as a radio, alerting me to the existence of a piece of music that I want to be able to revisit.

That's fine. To me, however, the film plays NO part. In fact, I own soundtracks to LOTS of films I've never seen. It may happen once in a blue moon that I hear a piece of music in a film and then later discover that it's not on disc, but it doesn't bother me much. I'm in it for singular ALBUM EXPERIENCE, not bits and pieces. That album experience is an independent entity with an independent musical story to tell. For the most time, I'm blissfully unaware of whatever music was or wasn't in the film. That's not why I listen to soundtracks in the first place.

Again, I think you're definitely downplaying the constraints of album space and financial feasibility. I think it's perfectly reasonable--and wise!--to artfully move around the cues when you're having to select excerpts from a score. I can even enjoy the album presentation; I am greatly enjoying the expanded Batman, but there are also things I can enjoy from the album presentation, such as going from "The Bat Cave" to "The Joker's Poem." I'll even acknowledge that some of the greatest film composers have favored album reworkings, but I don't think it's so much that the C & C ideology has so much spread in the last ten years as it has been made more feasible.

I don't know. We never talked about this in the 90's, as far as I can recall, even though CD's had been around for a long time. I think it has more to do with the availability of music combined with the fact that these niche labels are run by fans who came to the interest through the FILMS themselves, not purely through music like myself (and others like me).

At this point, the thing that's making least sense for me in all of this is the apparent emphasis on form at the expense of content: I'm just not making sense of the seeming inability to allow in any more quality music from a given work once you've heard it in one form.

To me, form IS content in many ways. Also, I don't have so much problem with including more music as I have with HOW that music is arranged. Sometimes, though, it is necessary to weed out certain musical bits that either aren't very interesting or don't add anything to the overall listening experience. These are the choices that the composer/producer should make.

Thor, you're not getting it. Being hit over the head with a broken record is irritating, and constantly bringing up one issue is going to generate a backlash.

I feel like you're fishing for it.

Hardly. The view comes up often because labels keep releasing scores I like in a format I don't like. Easy as that. What would the alternative be? Just shut up about it because certain people can't tolerate a different approach to things? I'm sorry, but that's your problem, not mine.

We already agreed to disagree on this at another board, Onebuckfilms, and I'm a bit disappointed that you don't respect that mutual agreement. As you see, we come from two radical different places, so there's no way we can ever come to terms. I will not start liking C&C more and you will not start liking album presentations more, no matter how much we debate this.

Preferences are UN-DEBATABLE. That's the really the gist of this whole thing.

I'm confronting your presentation, not your taste. This is the last I will say about the matter.

[Thor 7,504]

I do think you're taking the independence of an album in a much farther degree than even the composers which agree with your stance to one extent or another--I can't think of any composers that have totally altered their titles so as to distance themselves from what the film is, and frequently they even refer to how the themes function to whom or to what they relate. And maybe you're aware of that and don't really care, but I do believe at that point you're beyond the "the composers agree with me" phase.

Maybe. The composers DO agree with me (as they tend to rearrange their albums for listening too), but where I am more extreme is perhaps that I don't have - or don't WANT TO have - any associations to the film whatsoever when I listen to soundtracks. This comes entirely from the fact that I began listening to soundtracks as an extension of other musical genres, NOT of how the music worked in film.

I want to enjoy the experience of the full original work on its own merits--not the merits of the film or the way it works, and not the merits of some other experience it's been altered to become, but the original work that was written and recorded by the composer.

Yes, that's where we depart. I feel there MUST be some alteration to the filmatic raw material; otherwise it's not presented on purely musical terms, it's presented on filmical. And if I want to get a grip on how the music works in a filmical sense, I'll put on the film.

One last thought: You very often mention that preferences are by nature selfish, and tend to require someone to not get what they want. And yet this is where your much-loved pizza analogy breaks down: One guy preferring veggie pizza does not keep me from getting my sausage pizza. So if you're gonna keep going on this route, perhaps a better analogy would be in order?

Well, analogies can be twisted any which way possible. The point, however, was that one person LAMBASTED the other for liking a different pizza (or different dish) than oneself - which is really not something that can be criticized in the first place. It's part of who you are; your taste; your very being. Criticizing that is like criticizing the colour of your eyes.

I'm confronting your presentation, not your taste. This is the last I will say about the matter.

Presentation?!? I'm afraid you lost me there, pal.

[Datameister 2,042]

That was fun.

I hope SpaceCamp arrives today!

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I hope it ships today!

[Joe Brausam 214]

Mine didn't ship till last night, my Predator shipped pretty late too. It's all good though, I'm glad to have it coming!

[Quintus 5,399]

Just listening to The Computer Room now. Are those first few seconds a deliberate nod to Courage's Star Trek?

This score does have that beautiful vintage Williams sound, but it I would not call it vintage Williams. Know what I mean? It's too obscure to be considered as such. Nice music all the same.

[Henry B 50]

Thor, it's interesting that you brought up the time limitations of LPs forcing composers/producers to think creatively. Other times you view the composer's presentation as absolute. That's very much a contradiction. For example, with Star Wars, you've got the Star Wars OST at 75 minutes, the Empire Strikes Back OST at 75 minutes and the Return of the Jedi OST at 35 minutes. Are you quite sure this is because Williams just wanted 40 minutes less music on Return of the Jedi, and not because the market transition between LPs and CDs forced him to cut the music down to a single LP? Just as C&C fans sometimes have no respect for the composers' wishes, you seem to insist that every - well, almost every - album represents the composers' wishes, even if they never make a statement supporting this; even if they say that they actually wanted to include more music; even if the score is snubbed in favor of pop songs. 99.9% of albums are the best assembly possible? I just don't know about that.

Then the listening itself seems so peculiar. Let me stress that I'm not saying your enjoyment of album presentations is somehow "wrong" because that's just what makes you happy. I'm only curious to know more about it. It seems that if you only enjoy a film score in an album assembly, then you're somehow not... processing things individually. I'm not sure how to put this. For me, a piece of music can grab me in seconds. I'd prefer to listen to things in the dark with a good pair of headphones and no distractions, but sometimes I can be standing around in CVS when suddenly I notice an engaging pop song on the loudspeaker. It's as disjointed a listening experience as possible, with lots of outside noise and an incomplete presentation of the music, but nevertheless it grabs me. I love this spontaneous aspect of music. Similarly, if I hear an unreleased piece of music on a web site and it takes me, what am I to do? That's why it's so important that labels provide sound clips. I've bought lots of albums because I was attracted to little snippets, not the entire score presentation, which obviously can't be previewed (legally).

For me it just boils down to taking things on a score by score basis. Sometimes I love the unique flow of the album; sometimes I just wish all the missing music was there. But to stick to an album presentation every single time? (99.9% of the time, I should say...) Regardless of every limiting factor that went into the album's creation, regardless of how you feel about the unreleased music? It seems, Thor, like you take a sort of priestly approach to listening, as if the album presentation is your salvation and the unreleased music is your sin. As if hearing something that the composer didn't intend for the album (or you assume he didn't intend) is somehow vulgar and should not be enjoyed. Apologies if I'm going too far with the analogy. I just find it hard to believe that you're never affected by music in the moment; that music is dead to you if not presented in the album format.

[King Mark 3,631]

Like I said he doesn't make any sense. He's placing the album assembly and track orders above musical composition.

I think it's generally agreed murky underscore can be left of a score album , but he doesn't even want masterpiece cues (like Carbon Freeze) if they were left off the OST. His problem

[Datameister 2,042]

We're still talking about this?

[Faleel 5,348]

We're still talking about this?

lol

[Thor 7,504]

The discussion that won't die, eh?

Thor, it's interesting that you brought up the time limitations of LPs forcing composers/producers to think creatively. Other times you view the composer's presentation as absolute. That's very much a contradiction.

I don't see it as a contradiction at all. The time limitation of previous media was an incentive to reconceptualize the music, true, but most composers would like this reconceptualization anyway - back then and now. A CD can hold far more music, but you still see Williams, Elfman, Zimmer etc. release albums that they feel represent the score properly while holding up as a listening experience. They're not interested in "cramming" the disc with music just because they can. INCEPTION was, what, 50 minutes?

It seems that if you only enjoy a film score in an album assembly, then you're somehow not... processing things individually. I'm not sure how to put this. For me, a piece of music can grab me in seconds.

I wouldn't say that. I love those big "moments" too, but when I press "play" on my CD player, it's to have one full listening experience from start to finish. I don't jump around in tracks. A spontaneous experience of music is not mutually exclusive from being given a full musical journey. It's just located INSIDE that musical journey.

But to stick to an album presentation every single time? (99.9% of the time, I should say...) Regardless of every limiting factor that went into the album's creation, regardless of how you feel about the unreleased music? It seems, Thor, like you take a sort of priestly approach to listening, as if the album presentation is your salvation and the unreleased music is your sin.

I wouldn't use such strong words. I don't consider unreleased music a 'sin'. I'm just totally indifferent to it. What matters to me is the soundtrack in front of me, and whether or not that works. Even if there's a brand new Beethoven symphony tucked away in the score that is not on the album. I just don't care. The film (and the music in it) has no relevance when I'm listening. They could take a score such as STAR WARS and rename it "Pink Star Elephants" for the album release and I still wouldn't mind, that's how little relevance the film has.

I realize this is probably difficult to grasp for most people here, but if you consider the fact - and I've said this a few times now - that my journey into soundtracks came from listening to prog rock concept albums and instrumental electronic music (NOT by falling in love with scores through the films themselves), then perhaps it's easier to understand. It's certainly a minority approach (at least around here), but no less valid.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Thread has gone bye-bye, Egon. Not to sound like the forum police, but this would have been a great discussion in ANOTHER thread. THIS thread is about Lea Thompson's ass in a jumpsuit.

[Demondm810 399]

Thread has gone bye-bye, Egon. Not to sound like the forum police, but this would have been a great discussion in ANOTHER thread. THIS thread is about Lea Thompson's ass in a jumpsuit.

Christ, we would need 2 threads for Lea Thompson.

[Faleel 5,348]

We're still talking about this?

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

So from multiple listens, sound quality is a bit disappointing. It isn't BAD, but it's not exactly great. There are also a couple errors I've noticed, I'd assume related to the shape of the masters or the recording/mixing. Little channel cut-outs ("In Orbit", also on old CD) and a skip ("Max Finds Courage").

Liner notes are good but gave me somewhat of a quarter life crisis.

That Sony logo on the case was new to me. It made me instantly think if we'll be seeing that logo on Hook.

[Henry B 50]

The discussion that won't die, eh?

Thor, it's interesting that you brought up the time limitations of LPs forcing composers/producers to think creatively. Other times you view the composer's presentation as absolute. That's very much a contradiction.

I don't see it as a contradiction at all. The time limitation of previous media was an incentive to reconceptualize the music, true, but most composers would like this reconceptualization anyway - back then and now. A CD can hold far more music, but you still see Williams, Elfman, Zimmer etc. release albums that they feel represent the score properly while holding up as a listening experience. They're not interested in "cramming" the disc with music just because they can. INCEPTION was, what, 50 minutes?

It is a contradiction in the myriad cases in which the album was compromised for financial or technical reasons. See my Return of the Jedi example. As for Inception, I'm not sure 50 minutes was Zimmer's wish because he put up unreleased cues on his web site.

It seems that if you only enjoy a film score in an album assembly, then you're somehow not... processing things individually. I'm not sure how to put this. For me, a piece of music can grab me in seconds.

I wouldn't say that. I love those big "moments" too, but when I press "play" on my CD player, it's to have one full listening experience from start to finish. I don't jump around in tracks. A spontaneous experience of music is not mutually exclusive from being given a full musical journey. It's just located INSIDE that musical journey.

Yeah, makes sense. I guess a simpler way of asking this is: do you never hear music in fragmented settings and react to it or want to hear it again? I like the album experience, but I also like the spontaneous, isolated experience, which a C&C release can facilitate.

But to stick to an album presentation every single time? (99.9% of the time, I should say...) Regardless of every limiting factor that went into the album's creation, regardless of how you feel about the unreleased music? It seems, Thor, like you take a sort of priestly approach to listening, as if the album presentation is your salvation and the unreleased music is your sin.

I wouldn't use such strong words. I don't consider unreleased music a 'sin'. I'm just totally indifferent to it. What matters to me is the soundtrack in front of me, and whether or not that works. Even if there's a brand new Beethoven symphony tucked away in the score that is not on the album. I just don't care. The film (and the music in it) has no relevance when I'm listening. They could take a score such as STAR WARS and rename it "Pink Star Elephants" for the album release and I still wouldn't mind, that's how little relevance the film has.

I realize this is probably difficult to grasp for most people here, but if you consider the fact - which I've said a few times now - that my journey into soundtracks came from listening to prog rock concept albums and instrumental electronic music (NOT by falling in love with scores through the films themselves), then perhaps it's easier to understand. It's certainly a minority approach (at least around here), but no less valid.

Yes. Sorry about the melodramatic analogy. I should emphasize, though, that I'm not drawn to C&C because of the film. Honestly, I don't watch a whole lot of films, so in most cases my memories of the film while listening to something C&C are distant or nonexistent. It really is about the music for me, with the music's role in the film being a secondary interest. (I do think it's interesting to note how scores are tailored to images... it's an interesting discussion in its own right and not just about reliving my favorite cool action scenes or something.) Spartacus ... well, that's a classic film and no doubt a great example of music accentuating imagery, but I haven't seen it. It really doesn't stop me from enjoying the whole score. I don't derive the same euphoria from every moment of it - "Spartacus March Excerpt #3" or whatever isn't the most amazing thing ever to grace a CD - but I appreciate the musical narrative, which, although built around the film, is valid in its own right (or so I see it). I appreciate the contribution every piece makes to it. I could go into musical specifics and why, with various C&C scores, I see an aesthetic appeal that goes beyond the structure of the film, but I won't bore you with that. The point is that C&C, while admittedly sometimes influenced by the film, is usually about the music itself for me.

[Thor 7,504]

It is a contradiction in the myriad cases in which the album was compromised for financial or technical reasons. See my Return of the Jedi example. As for Inception, I'm not sure 50 minutes was Zimmer's wish because he put up unreleased cues on his web site.

That's true, but they were mostly ad hoc bits. It seems to me that you're beginning to argue for a scenario where composers DON'T think in terms of listening experience when they assemble albums, and that they're always at the mercy of technical and financial limitations. Is that it? If so, that's certainly a first. My point is that YES, there are always financial or technical concerns in a soundtrack-producing situation, but the composer/producer's wishes and desire to present a listening experience transcend that. If they had wanted C&C presentations, they would have done everything in their power to do that, not waste time on thematic recaps, the insertion of suites (Elfman's "Ape Suites" from POTA, for example), chronological jumbling and other such issues. I quote ol' Miklos Rozsa, when Royal S Brown asked about this:

RSB: How do you regard the recording of film music separately from the film? /.../ What do you think a film music recording should be? Should it be all of the cues, should it be rearranged?

MR: It should be rearranged. It should be rearranged for listening. Without seeing something, it's a different experience.

RSB: Do you prefer a concert suite or do you prefer simply arranging the cues as they were written in a different order?

MR: It could be both.

Yeah, makes sense. I guess a simpler way of asking this is: do you never hear music in fragmented settings and react to it or want to hear it again?

Sure. Mostly outside film music, though.

If I hear a piece of music in a film that I like, I might say "hey, that's nice". But then I quickly forget about it. And it definitely has no bearing on the soundtrack, should I pick that up. As long as that works as it is, I have no particular need for that single track that I liked once upon a time.

Yes. Sorry about the melodramatic analogy. I should emphasize, though, that I'm not drawn to C&C because of the film. Honestly, I don't watch a whole lot of films, so in most cases my memories of the film while listening to something C&C are distant or nonexistent. It really is about the music for me, with the music's role in the film being a secondary interest. (I do think it's interesting to note how scores are tailored to images...

I think that's very interesting too, and in fact wrote my Ph.D. dissertation on it. But it's only part of my FILM interest (music as a tool in film) and has no relation to my soundtrack listening.

The point is that C&C, while admittedly sometimes influenced by the film, is usually about the music itself for me.

Well yes, it IS music, but if you subscribe to the C&C idelogy, you also subscribe to the structures from its previous medium, the film. Otherwise, it wouldn't matter what they did with it. You're letting the FILM dictate how the music should be presented, even when the film is long gone and you're only left with the music itself.

[Datameister 2,042]

We're still talking about this?

[Thor 7,504]

He, he...I'm with you, Datameister, but I'm gonna keep responding as long as others do. No harm, though. I'm sure the SPACECAMP comments will begin to roll in as soon as the CD's arrive in people's mailboxes (including my own).

[Faleel 5,348]

It is a contradiction in the myriad cases in which the album was compromised for financial or technical reasons. See my Return of the Jedi example. As for Inception, I'm not sure 50 minutes was Zimmer's wish because he put up unreleased cues on his web site.

That's true, but they were mostly ad hoc bits. It seems to me that you're beginning to argue for a scenario where composers DON'T think in terms of listening experience when they assemble albums, and that they're always at the mercy of technical and financial limitations. Is that it? If so, that's certainly a first. My point is that YES, there are always financial or technical concerns in a soundtrack-producing situation, but the composer/producer's wishes and desire to present a listening experience transcend that. If they had wanted C&C presentations, they would have done everything in their power to do that, not waste time on thematic recaps, the insertion of suites (Elfman's "Ape Suites" from POTA, for example), chronological jumbling and other such issues. I quote ol' Miklos Rozsa, when Royal S Brown asked about this:

RSB: How do you regard the recording of film music separately from the film? /.../ What do you think a film music recording should be? Should it be all of the cues, should it be rearranged?

MR: It should be rearranged. It should be rearranged for listening. Without seeing something, it's a different experience.

RSB: Do you prefer a concert suite or do you prefer simply arranging the cues as they were written in a different order?

MR: It could be both.

Yeah, makes sense. I guess a simpler way of asking this is: do you never hear music in fragmented settings and react to it or want to hear it again?

Sure. Mostly outside film music, though.

If I hear a piece of music in a film that I like, I might say "hey, that's nice". But then I quickly forget about it. And it definitely has no bearing on the soundtrack, should I pick that up. As long as that works as it is, I have no particular need for that single track that I liked once upon a time.

Yes. Sorry about the melodramatic analogy. I should emphasize, though, that I'm not drawn to C&C because of the film. Honestly, I don't watch a whole lot of films, so in most cases my memories of the film while listening to something C&C are distant or nonexistent. It really is about the music for me, with the music's role in the film being a secondary interest. (I do think it's interesting to note how scores are tailored to images...

I think that's very interesting too, and in fact wrote my Ph.D. dissertation on it. But it's only part of my FILM interest (music as a tool in film) and has no relation to my soundtrack listening.

The point is that C&C, while admittedly sometimes influenced by the film, is usually about the music itself for me.

Well yes, it IS music, but if you subscribe to the C&C idelogy, you also subscribe to the structures from its previous medium, the film. Otherwise, it wouldn't matter what they did with it. You're letting the FILM dictate how the music should be presented, even when the film is long gone and you're only left with the music itself.

were still talking about this?

[Datameister 2,042]

He, he...I'm with you, Datameister, but I'm gonna keep responding as long as others do.

And they're gonna keep responding as long as you do. See how that works? All you have to do is just...stop. Because, as you pointed out, no one's opinions are going to change here, and it's not as if anyone's saying anything new. You've explained your opinions in full detail many times over, and you're clearly not confused about what the majority thinks. There's no benefit to continuing the conversation in a thread that was supposed to be about something else altogether.

As an example of this "just stop" technique, I hereby refuse to respond to any debate about the content of this post I've just written. I do, however, reserve the right to continue quoting myself ad infinitum.

[Thor 7,504]

He, he...I'm with you, Datameister, but I'm gonna keep responding as long as others do.

And they're gonna keep responding as long as you do. See how that works? All you have to do is just...stop. Because, as you pointed out, no one's opinions are going to change here, and it's not as if anyone's saying anything new. You've explained your opinions in full detail many times over, and you're clearly not confused about what the majority thinks. There's no benefit to continuing the conversation in a thread that was supposed to be about something else altogether.

As an example of this "just stop" technique, I hereby refuse to respond to any debate about the content of this post I've just written. I do, however, reserve the right to continue quoting myself ad infinitum.

Well, I'm not the one questioning the other. I'm merely responding to accusations, questions and various other arguments related to my taste here. I'm the recipient, not the sender. I think the power to "stop this", if it is so bothersome for you to read, is in the other court.

Then again, I don't really see the harm in going off-topic for a while. What else is there related to SPACECAMP that you so want to discuss at this time?