Intrada presents Spacecamp

[Datameister 2,041]

Ah.

[fommes 153]

(Just wanted to add for the record that I think Thor's a very nice guy, and often has interesting stuff to add to discussions, but yeah when it comes to this particular topic he's a bit of an MB "troll" unfortunately. No offence!)

[Hlao-roo 389]

This gentlemen is the reason I put Thor on ignore on FSM and on here. I got tired of reading the same bullshit posts when ever a Limited Edition CD came out, especially if it was complete. I have to agree with Fommes, don't let this thread get degraded by his smelly bullshit. It aint worth the effort.

I will say in final closing on this matter...for someone who doesn't give a rats ass about complete presentation of the scores that are released it's a big insult to the labels. Considering how much legal shit they have to go through in order to get these releases out to us. For someone who is so against complete releases you would think he would be into other music other than film scores.

To simply put, Thor is a troll, nothing more.

Trent, you call him a "troll," yet your post contains far more invective than I've ever seen Thor dish out himself. His opinions on album presentations (among other things) are provocative and encased in what I deem to be airtight dogmatism, but he should still be treated with civility and respect. The presence of an "ignore" function is not a license to engage in personal attacks.

[John Crichton 4]

I don't agree with Thor about album presentations and I don't frequent FSM, but I've never seen him exhibit any trollish characteristics in his visits here.

[OneBuckFilms 319]

Thor wants a shorter Score,

which pushes Trent to click Ignore,

and the uninitiated to oppose him and Implore,

for him to support us all hearing a little more.

But on this issue, he'll make us snore,

while omitted cues we want to restore.

What a bore, is the short score chasing Thor

To quote my favorite starship Captain:

"I'll say this much for him, he's consistent."

[King Mark 3,631]

what's the ignore function?

[Thor 7,493]

Great to have this out (I was on holiday and just barely caught in time), so that I can chuck the ol' CD-R of the Japanese CD in the trash bin. And even BETTER to see that it is NOT C&C and that they have kept the original LP program, in remastered format.

I must admit, I'm confused about why you'd be happy to see it not complete and chronological. I'm not too bothered by the fact that it's not, but actually being grateful for the absence of some music doesn't make sense to me. If they'd provided the whole score, it would have been easy enough to re-create the original LP program from that. You'd basically get two presentations of the score in one. But re-creating the whole score from the LP program is impossible.

I realize that you've probably not been around FSM to read all the debates I've had on this, but to put it very shortly:

I hate C&C releases, as they go against the very reason I'm into soundtracks. I'm in it ONLY for the music listening, as if it were any other concept album (prog rock, electronic, classical, what-have-you). The film has no relevance whatsoever, and I don't care what music was left off as long as what I've got works. Thus, I expect the album to be arranged (by the producer or composer) BEFORE I buy it, as I'm a) not qualified to "play" record producer myself and b) shouldn't be required to do so. Album production is an artform for the few, and part of the package I'm buying - just as you buy a painting WITH the colours and a car WITH the steering wheel attached. I realize that means that you won't have all the music you wish, but so be it. I think the only solution to please both camps is to have two simultaneous soundtracks - one album-arranged and one C&C.

There, that's the gist of it. It basically just boils down to a different preference and different approach to soundtrack listening, but as you can see from the replies above, some people take it as a personal offense. Strange. As if you were outraged that some people didn't like anchovies on the pizza while you happened to love it.

[Hlao-roo 389]

Great to have this out (I was on holiday and just barely caught in time), so that I can chuck the ol' CD-R of the Japanese CD in the trash bin. And even BETTER to see that it is NOT C&C and that they have kept the original LP program, in remastered format.

I must admit, I'm confused about why you'd be happy to see it not complete and chronological. I'm not too bothered by the fact that it's not, but actually being grateful for the absence of some music doesn't make sense to me. If they'd provided the whole score, it would have been easy enough to re-create the original LP program from that. You'd basically get two presentations of the score in one. But re-creating the whole score from the LP program is impossible.

I realize that you've probably not been around FSM to read all the debates I've had on this, but to put it very shortly:

I hate C&C releases, as they go against the very reason I'm into soundtracks. I'm in it ONLY for the music listening, as if it were any other concept album (prog rock, electronic, classical, what-have-you). The film has no relevance whatsoever, and I don't care what music was left off as long as what I've got works. Thus, I expect the album to be arranged (by the producer or composer) BEFORE I buy it, as I'm a) not qualified to "play" record producer myself and b) shouldn't be required to do so. Album production is part of the package I'm buying. I realize that means that you won't have all the music you wish, but so be it. I think the only solution to please both camps is to have two simultaneous soundtracks - one album-arranged and on C&C.

There, that's the gist of it. It basically just boils down to a different preference and different approach to soundtrack listening, but as you can say from the replies above, some people take it as a personal offense. Strange. As if you were outraged that some people didn't like anchovies on the pizza while you happened to love it.

Some may take it as a personal offense, but, for me, it's more of a personal "irritant," if you will. When I read an opinion with which I disagree, even as I intellectually welcome the difference of perspective, I instinctively find it grating. I suspect I'm not alone. In general, we tend to respond favorably to that which is consonant with our own feelings and predilections and unfavorably to that which is not. We can train ourselves otherwise, but the instinct remains.

In this case, what makes it all the more grating is not that, for the sake of argument, you dislike anchovies on your pizza. Rather, it's that you dislike anchovies so much that you think the pizza parlor should refrain from putting anchovies on anyone's pizza. Granted, the analogy breaks down fairly easily, but the point is that personal preference stops being "personal" when it impinges on the preferences of others. When you so openly root against a given release being "complete and chronological," particularly when it is expected to contain music omitted from the original album release that is near and dear to the hearts of other listeners, they may feel that you're not only expressing a discordant opinion, you're doing violence to theirs.

Of course, it's a two way street. I'm actually sympathetic to your position. I don't like to play "record producer," either, and generally don't. Like you, I consider it an unwarranted hassle. I would hate to be in a situation in which comfortably experiencing film music became a chore for me. Where you and I depart is that, if it came down to it, I would rather have the option of having more music. Even if it's a terrific listen on its own, I don't hold the original album presentation to be sacrosanct. Sometimes, or even often, more is, well, more -- or at least different in a good way.

[publicist 4,643]

I hate C&C releases, as they go against the very reason I'm into soundtracks. I'm in it ONLY for the music listening, as if it were any other concept album (prog rock, electronic, classical, what-have-you). The film has no relevance whatsoever, and I don't care what music was left off as long as what I've got works. Thus, I expect the album to be arranged (by the producer or composer) BEFORE I buy it, as I'm a) not qualified to "play" record producer myself and b) shouldn't be required to do so. Album production is an artform for the few, and part of the package I'm buying - just as you buy a painting WITH the colours and a car WITH the steering wheel attached. I realize that means that you won't have all the music you wish, but so be it. I think the only solution to please both camps is to have two simultaneous soundtracks - one album-arranged and one C&C.

Problem is that those 'qualified' album producers you cite more often than not fuck up releases for reasons beyond their control. The number of scores having unsatisfying releases because the score was not ready is legion (MUMMY RETURNS, the Arnold Bond scores etc.). Sometimes, commercial reasons overcome artistic considerations (pop song!!), for a lack of time album presentation may have been done by some underlings without much musical sense and a myriad of other things can happen which you may never know.

I'm mostly pro-Thor when it comes to filmscorenerd's dearest pet, the complete release, which more often than not just betrays an ill-considered understanding of music per se. But i'm realistic enough to know that releases like FIRST KNIGHT [insert other 90's Goldsmith here] or ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE just shouldn't be the way they are. I don't want them C&C either...just better made. So C&C in those cases for me.

[Quintus 5,399]

I never visit FSM, but I have to say I agree with Thor's "it makes for a better record" preference and approach. Unlike him; my taste in scores is largely reliant upon whether or not I've seen and enjoy the respective films in question, but that still isn't to say that I absolutely must have the complete score if I like what I here during the movie. On the contrary; I would much rather have a well produced, thoughtfully edited representation of the score, in album form. First and foremost I think the ost should attempt to tell a musical story, with any future expanded or complete release being a grateful collectors bonus, but not at any time should it be the priority. In this respect, I'd suggest that with JW we have some of the best film score osts or "albums" available - a fact that the most obsessive of collectors seem quick to forget, blinded by their rabid desire to acquire every single note written. Yeah it's nice to have, but it does not make for a good record. It's a shame that complete score releases have become the be all and end all for some, instead of just being happy to listen to all the brilliant music which they have got - like how they did before the internet.

As for the personal attacks, I see nothing here which warrants them.

[Nemesis 245]

The only actual fault with the product is the pitch/speed issue with some of the tracks in Raiders. The rest of the issues are with product concept and implementation, and the curious choice of the album cut of the Desert Chase.

That's not quite correct. The pitch issue is also on the Temple of Doom cd, I think it's much worse than on Raiders.

Especially when trying to edit the cues together which belong together.

Otherwise I am extrem happy with this set.

[Thor 7,493]

Some may take it as a personal offense, but, for me, it's more of a personal "irritant," if you will. When I read an opinion with which I disagree, even as I intellectually welcome the difference of perspective, I instinctively find it grating. I suspect I'm not alone. In general, we tend to respond favorably to that which is consonant with our own feelings and predilections and unfavorably to that which is not. We can train ourselves otherwise, but the instinct remains.

Well, the world is full of people who disagree with you or who don't share your taste in things. That's just how it is. It's better not to make it personal and just move on. Or - alternatively - discuss things constructively. When it comes to preference, however, no amount of rational debate will change one's taste. No matter how much you argue for the excellence of anchovies, I will still dislike it.

Granted, the analogy breaks down fairly easily, but the point is that personal preference stops being "personal" when it impinges on the preferences of others. When you so openly root against a given release being "complete and chronological," particularly when it is expected to contain music omitted from the original album release that is near and dear to the hearts of other listeners, they may feel that you're not only expressing a discordant opinion, you're doing violence to theirs.

Personal preference does BY DEFINITION exclude others who don't share that preference. Just think about it, what would the alternative be? To say "I prefer album presentations, but because I don't want to "violate" everyone else's preference, I will just let you have it your way and withdraw from my soundtrack interest altogether"? Does that sound fair? It's fine to be solidaric and everything, but when it comes to preference, it's all by nature egoistic. You like a thing a certain way, and you want it to be presented to you a certain way. At least you can be thankful that I have no power among niche labels, which seem to veer more towards YOUR preference. All I can do is EXPRESS my taste (as you can yours), and as far as I can tell - there is no harm in that.

The release of SPACECAMP with the LP program intact was a RARE opportunity for me to APPLAUD a niche label that catered to my taste, and I hope that is allowed, just as all of you constantly applaud a given C&C release that cater to your taste.

Of course, it's a two way street. I'm actually sympathetic to your position. I don't like to play "record producer," either, and generally don't. Like you, I consider it an unwarranted hassle. I would hate to be in a situation in which comfortably experiencing film music became a chore for me. Where you and I depart is that, if it came down to it, I would rather have the option of having more music. Even if it's a terrific listen on its own, I don't hold the original album presentation to be sacrosanct.

Yup, that's where we depart. I consider the album presentation as sacrosanct as the composition itself, the performance, the recording....all the elements that go into the artistic realization.

Problem is that those 'qualified' album producers you cite more often than not fuck up releases for reasons beyond their control. The number of scores having unsatisfying releases because the score was not ready is legion (MUMMY RETURNS, the Arnold Bond scores etc.). Sometimes, commercial reasons overcome artistic considerations (pop song!!), for a lack of time album presentation may have been done by some underlings without much musical sense and a myriad of other things can happen which you may never know.

IMO, album producers who produce albums with listening experience in mind, almost always get it right. There are exceptions, of course, but they do at any rate provide a better experience than C&C 99.9% of the time.

[Ollie 1,059]

Thanks fellas.....

I'm beginning to think I've had enough of these boards and the past few weeks aren't helping matters.

[Joe Brausam 214]

Thanks fellas.....

I'm beginning to think I've had enough of these boards and the past few weeks aren't helping matters.

Feel exactly the same..

[Datameister 2,041]

Been there, done that, Mark. Don't worry, even if you leave in an angry YAGE, as I did, you'll return before too long, as I did. At least, I hope so!

[Wojo 2,453]

I'm just glad that Thor is just a poster that riles people up, instead of somebody who actually seems to have any pull with the soundtrack albums regarding getting albums released. If he likes listening to short jumbled up "concept albums," bless him. I don't.

I'm starting to regret having bought SpaceCamp because it offers no improvement over the bootleg version. Listening experience? I define my own. I have that power as a consumer. I'm not insulted when I edit tracks. I relish every moment of it.

I buy a painting with the colors? Wow. I can no more change the colors of the painting than I can change what instruments played a specific melody in a passage of music. But I buy my own picture frame, choose what wall it goes onto, what light shines on it, and what furniture goes near the painting to complete the experience.

I buy a car with the steering wheel attached? Every car has a steering wheel, unless I replace it with a flight stick after I retire from the air force. But I can buy a wheel cover with my favorite sports team to cover the dull factory supplied material. I can no more customize the wheel itself than I can ask Intrada to supply an album in a triangular-shaped compact disc.

Short albums are a byproduct of the restrictions of the media. Records, cassettes, and CDs all have finite lengths. If you want more material to complete the set, you have to add another physical piece, which increases costs. The first 45 minutes of a soundtrack would miss the great climactic scenes, so soundtrack albums would mix stuff around to create a good listening experience within the confines of the medium. <Yawn>

[Ollie 1,059]

It's not just Thor, all though I do prefer not to have those type of discussions here because I find them pointless and insulting to the labels that do all the hard work.

It's just the behavior, that this place thankfully avoids for the most part, that's been going on lately in the film score community.

It's just starting to get to a point where I'm embarrassed to be associated with this hobby.

[Thor 7,493]

I'm just glad that Thor is just a poster that riles people up, instead of somebody who actually seems to have any pull with the soundtrack albums regarding getting albums released. If he likes listening to short jumbled up "concept albums," bless him. I don't.

That's fine. To each their own. It's pretty incredible, though, that a different preference is able to "rile people up". Imagine sitting at a restaurant with a bunch of friends, and one of them orders a pizza and the other a beef. Then suddenly the guy ordering the pizza says to the other "what, did you order beef? How COULD you? What kind of drivel is that, beef tastes like crap? I see it as a personal insult against me and the people running this restaurant! Fuck You!".

Pretty insane.

I buy a painting with the colors? Wow. I can no more change the colors of the painting than I can change what instruments played a specific melody in a passage of music. But I buy my own picture frame, choose what wall it goes onto, what light shines on it, and what furniture goes near the painting to complete the experience.

The difference being, of course, that I equate album production with the colours and the compositions themselves. It's INTEGRAL to the package, not something outside it that can or should be altered after you've bought it. It's not raw material that anyone can play around with. It's part of the artist's (usually the composer's) artistic creation; the way he wants to communicate his music to us outside the film medium. You can then choose to like or dislike it, but you have no right to say HOW he should present it to you.

I buy a car with the steering wheel attached? Every car has a steering wheel,

Exactly! Presenting a score on CD without some form of arrangement is, IMO, akin to selling a car without a steering wheel. Without album production, it is not finished!

Short albums are a byproduct of the restrictions of the media. Records, cassettes, and CDs all have finite lengths. If you want more material to complete the set, you have to add another physical piece, which increases costs. The first 45 minutes of a soundtrack would miss the great climactic scenes, so soundtrack albums would mix stuff around to create a good listening experience within the confines of the medium.

I actually think the LP length limitation of yesteryear was a PLUS because it "forced" producers and composers to reconceptualize their music for a different medium. I'm glad that most composers STILL think that way when they produce new, commercial soundtracks, even though length limitation has almost doubled, but sad that niche labels usually don't do the same. Except Intrada in this particular case.

[Ollie 1,059]

I'm starting to regret having bought SpaceCamp because it offers no improvement over the bootleg version. Listening experience? I define my own. I have that power as a consumer. I'm not insulted when I edit tracks. I relish every moment of it.

I'd put one of the two on eBay a few months from now and get all I could.

[Thor 7,493]

It's not just Thor, all though I do prefer not to have those type of discussions here because I find them pointless and insulting to the labels that do all the hard work.

It's hardly insulting to have a preference that goes against a given product. Should we just applaud whatever is thrown our way, even if we don't like it or the ideology that drives it?

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I prefer shorter albums too because I can't wait for the bloody thing to finish.

[filmmusic 1,826]

I think the bootleg has one track missing (the synth one), and adds the Kunzel rerecording, if I'm not mistaken. I don't have it though. But do a search, the info's somewhere on the MB, and it can't be hard to track down.

Yes, that's correct, but since the bootleg omits a track and adds another in its place, it still should have 14 tracks and not 15.

the reason for this is that the track 7 from the Japanese release (or track 7 from Intrada) is split into 2 tracks in the bootleg version (7 + 12).

and another difference is that I think the tracks are in the right order in the bootleg version/

[Jacob 0]

Great to have this out (I was on holiday and just barely caught in time), so that I can chuck the ol' CD-R of the Japanese CD in the trash bin. And even BETTER to see that it is NOT C&C and that they have kept the original LP program, in remastered format.

Applause to Intrada!

Well, they wanted to expand it, but:

... the licensor that controlled the extra material just wasn't mobilizing. At least, I waited a year and finally decided to move along. But honestly, this had always been a long program and a great album. There was really only one additional cue (and a short one), that I wanted to add. But the masters for the extra music were of differing sound quality, so it would have been in a bonus section anyway.

http://www.intrada.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=42042#p42042

Anyway, I'm not an FSM vet, but I don't see anything wrong, insulting, or even particularly unreasonable about Thor's position or the way he's presented it (in this thread anyway).

It's just unpopular and backwards to the thinking of most other fans.

[Quintus 5,399]

If anything it seems that people for some reason get annoyed at the idea that some score fans might prefer a humble (75min) ost to a complete recording set - as if it goes against the very fabric of what makes a true score enthusiast! I mean, what's the big deal here? Can someone please explain? I don't see Thor criticising others for preferring complete releases over shorter albums, as he does; so why the witch-hunt?

Like I said, I don't visit FSM, so if the dude has a history of being a twat over there then I'll keep stum and say no more, but if that isn't the case then what's the problem with him saying what he likes? Because at the moment, it's others who look like twats.

[OneBuckFilms 319]

Quint,

I actually, like many, see both sides of the coin. Don't mistake honest, heated debate on an issue with any kind of targetting by either side.

I like instances of both kinds of albums, and it really depends on the score as to how it works best when presented.

I think the problem comes when some want music as recorded with as few edits as possible, in film order, and we're getting this a lot. Intrada's Alien is a great presentation of both the complete score AND the OST, and I love this approach.

Thor, however, seems to have a very, I don't know, almost militant way of bringing up the subject ad-nauseam on occasion, and when people disagree, two posts turn into a debate where the same points are brought up multiple times.

He and I had a heated, friendly debate (I think over on FSM), agreed to disagree, and that was it. People just feel like they're being overbearingly hit by a hammer when Thor wields his viewpoint like one. I've observed that he believes that an Album presentation, that can often omit great music, should be the industry standard, while many of us want a complete/expanded release with film versions of the cues and in film order, something Thor has stated that he "hates" with a passion.

There is a long history with Thor over on FSM that may color people's judgement of him here. I can only really speak adequately to my own history, however, which is one long, friendly debate from two film score enthusiasts with a different viewpoints on the Complete vs. Album presentation of a score.

[TownerFan 4,983]

Well said. We should make peace with the fact we all have different tastes and opinions. It's healthy to debate them and even challenge them. But without bringing the same viewpoints on and on.

[Wojo 2,453]

That's fine. To each their own. It's pretty incredible, though, that a different preference is able to "rile people up". Imagine sitting at a restaurant with a bunch of friends, and one of them orders a pizza and the other a beef. Then suddenly the guy ordering the pizza says to the other "what, did you order beef? How COULD you? What kind of drivel is that, beef tastes like crap? I see it as a personal insult against me and the people running this restaurant! Fuck You!".

Pretty insane.

Actually, you'd get more flack at this place if one of the friends bought his pizza without cheese.

If I haven't seen the movie or it's been decades since I did, then I probably don't care if the album is complete or not. I last saw SpaceCamp in 1994 so I feel no heartache over a missing fanfare. I never saw None but the Brave so I don't care how complete that album is. I never saw Conan the Barbarian, so the only real reason that I'd want it reprinted is to legitimately own a copy; I wouldn't care about an expansion. I've heard an isolated score version of Pirates 3 and all the cuts make it garbage; I'd prefer the OST. Yes, I double dipped for Intrada's The Blue Max and haven't unloaded the prior version yet.

But if I've seen the movie, especially if I am very fond of it, then I usually I want the C&C album. I am genetically flawed in that I often relive the movie through the soundtrack. I like to know what's going on in a particular sequence, and want to make sure that my favorite moments of music from the movie got onto the soundtrack. I sold my ID4 and Star Trek OST's when the C&C versions came out. There are exceptions. I'm fine with the Stargate OST and don't need the few extra minutes. Close Encounters isn't complete? Doesn't bother me. Attack of the Clones is missing music? It's probably for the better.

Consider Disc 4 of the Star Wars Anthology. Is it fair to assume that just because all of the outstanding music on that disc could not fit onto the original albums or even onto discs 1-3, the cues were unfit for listening? Because they weren't good enough for the original concept albums, they should be considered to be inferior and never be heard outside the film?

Pretty insane.

[Quintus 5,399]

Quint,

I actually, like many, see both sides of the coin. Don't mistake honest, heated debate on an issue with any kind of targetting by either side.

Thor, however, seems to have a very, I don't know, almost militant way of bringing up the subject ad-nauseam on occasion...People just feel like they're being overbearingly hit by a hammer when Thor wields his viewpoint like one. I've observed that he believes that an Album presentation, that can often omit great music, should be the industry standard, while many of us want a complete/expanded release with film versions of the cues and in film order, something Thor has stated that he "hates" with a passion.

There is a long history with Thor over on FSM that may color people's judgement of him here.

Ah, thank you for explaining. I can now understand the reasoning of those here who oppose Thor's pov - there is after all nothing worse than "ad-nauseam" and on that note I'll quit being a nosy sod and return to the shadows.

Must just say though that I haven't a clue why ANYONE would "hate with a passion" the option of having expanded/complete score releases, if they were on offer. I mean, it makes no sense to deliberately deprive people if they are happy to pay for it. For the sake of an album's artistic integrity? Get out of it!

[Jacob 0]

If I haven't seen the movie or it's been decades since I did, then I probably don't care if the album is complete or not.

...

But if I've seen the movie, especially if I am very fond of it, then I usually I want the C&C album.

Ditto. If only because there's that one favorite cue that inevitably gets left off.

In other news, my SpaceCamp order arrived just now.

[Thor 7,493]

Thor, however, seems to have a very, I don't know, almost militant way of bringing up the subject ad-nauseam on occasion, and when people disagree, two posts turn into a debate where the same points are brought up multiple times.

I would appreciate it if you gave a more nuanced picture of the situation if you're going to reference previous debates. The fact is that I've never - EVER - thrown out personal insults unless provoked first, but I've been the recipient of HUNDREDS (from being likened to cancer to being wished dead....I kid you not!....and only because I have a different approach to soundtracks)! You talk about me being "militant" and repetitative, but I only give my views when it is relevant for a score I like that is presented in a format I DON'T like. The ensuing debates only occur because people continually question my taste - as if the world crumbles beneath their feet because someone else likes a thing differently than they do. I would be perfectly content to just say my piece and leave it be, but others want it differently. I've been a member of the FSM board since the beginning, many years before yourself, so I would appreciate it if you bore that in mind before you quoted "FSM history". Thank you.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

While I don't agree with Thor's opinion on score releases, I'll say he's overall a nice guy and generally has good taste in film music. But yeah, I haven't posted on FSM for long and the debate has come up a lot more often than it should.

[Thor 7,493]

Must just say though that I haven't a clue why ANYONE would "hate with a passion" the option of having expanded/complete score releases, if they were on offer. I mean, it makes no sense to deliberately deprive people if they are happy to pay for it. For the sake of artistic integrity? Get out of it!

Well, I'm sorry, but if I were into soundtracks for the benefit of everyone else, I would do something else instead. Like building schools in poor countries or working on a cure for cancer or something. I'm into soundtracks because they - if properly rearranged - provide great concept albums, a la Pink Floyd's THE WALL or Jean Michel Jarre's OXYGENE or Claude Debussy's IMAGES. That's my right and privilege, as is my right to let that approach guide my views on how soundtracks should be presented.

But if I've seen the movie, especially if I am very fond of it, then I usually I want the C&C album. I am genetically flawed in that I often relive the movie through the soundtrack.

That's fine by me. Very different from how I listen to soundtracks, but I've got no problem with you having a different approach.

Consider Disc 4 of the Star Wars Anthology. Is it fair to assume that just because all of the outstanding music on that disc could not fit onto the original albums or even onto discs 1-3, the cues were unfit for listening? Because they weren't good enough for the original concept albums, they should be considered to be inferior and never be heard outside the film?

Yeah, in a way. Although I don't mind them being on that "bonus disc", as I never play it anyway. I've got my STAR WARS experience covered by the previous three discs.

[Quintus 5,399]

Must just say though that I haven't a clue why ANYONE would "hate with a passion" the option of having expanded/complete score releases, if they were on offer. I mean, it makes no sense to deliberately deprive people if they are happy to pay for it. For the sake of artistic integrity? Get out of it!

Well, I'm sorry, but if I were into soundtracks for the benefit of everyone else, I would do something else instead. Like building schools in poor countries or working on a cure for cancer or something. I'm into soundtracks because they - if properly rearranged - provide great concept albums, a la Pink Floyd's THE WALL or Jean Michel Jarre's OXYGENE or Claude Debussy's IMAGES. That's my right and privilege, as is my right to let that approach guide my views on how soundtracks should be presented.

...and so in your opinion, your particular preference of how scores would be released, as say for example, as a "concept album", should be the only way one would be able to own them?

[pixie_twinkle 48]

I prefer shorter albums too because I can't wait for the bloody thing to finish.

Beautiful!

[Wojo 2,453]

Must just say though that I haven't a clue why ANYONE would "hate with a passion" the option of having expanded/complete score releases, if they were on offer. I mean, it makes no sense to deliberately deprive people if they are happy to pay for it. For the sake of an album's artistic integrity? Get out of it!

Especially because many albums do offer a choice.

You don't like the Varese two-disc Star Trek? The OST is still in print.

You don't like the LOTR CR's? The OST's are still available and are much more affordable.

You think that LLR's Independence Day is overkill? The OST is dirt cheap these days.

There are exceptions.

You don't want to pay top dollar for Spartacus overkill? You'll pay a third as much for the original album.

You don't want the Star Wars Special Editions or even the Anthology? The OSTs are probably rare by now.

Who is to say, after all, that a C&C album has no artistic integrity? This implies that you cannot listen to a C&C album without distancing it from the movie in your mind. It says more about the listener than it does the album maker.

I don't need a composer to hand-make an album for me. He wrote conducted the music for the movie. Now please, stand aside, remove the movie from the music, press it to CD, and I'll pay you. That's all I ask. The "album" is just the container.

[Nemesis 245]

I think the remastered sound is it worth.

[Wojo 2,453]

Consider Disc 4 of the Star Wars Anthology. Is it fair to assume that just because all of the outstanding music on that disc could not fit onto the original albums or even onto discs 1-3, the cues were unfit for listening? Because they weren't good enough for the original concept albums, they should be considered to be inferior and never be heard outside the film?

Yeah, in a way. Although I don't mind them being on that "bonus disc", as I never play it anyway. I've got my STAR WARS experience covered by the previous three discs.

Unbelievable. I'm glad I don't know you and can't call you a friend, because that's the only thing keeping me from calling you an idiot.

[Thor 7,493]

..and so in your opinion, your particular preference of how scores would be released, as say for example, as a "concept album", should be the only way one would be able to own them?

As I said earlier, the IDEAL situation - and the ONLY way to please both camps - is to have TWO simultaneous soundtrack releases: one album and one C&C.

However, that is not often feasible, so we need to make a CHOICE. And since I have the preference I do, I need to choose whatever suits that. Just as you would choose the C&C and consequently rob ME of MY preference. That's how the world goes. We choose what we like, not on behalf of what everyone else likes.

Consider Disc 4 of the Star Wars Anthology. Is it fair to assume that just because all of the outstanding music on that disc could not fit onto the original albums or even onto discs 1-3, the cues were unfit for listening? Because they weren't good enough for the original concept albums, they should be considered to be inferior and never be heard outside the film?

Yeah, in a way. Although I don't mind them being on that "bonus disc", as I never play it anyway. I've got my STAR WARS experience covered by the previous three discs.

Unbelievable. I'm glad I don't know you and can't call you a friend, because that's the only thing keeping me from calling you an idiot.

Great! More personal insults. Real classy.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

I don't mind a shortened soundtrack release if it is a different recording (providing the original score can be made available too). To be honest I MUCH prefer first (re-recorded) Jaws release to the expanded version containing the original score as used in the film because I prefer the performances, and the arrangements are better IMO. I feel the same way about The Fury. That's not to say I have no use for the full expanded score, not at all. It's just that in those rare instances I think the music benefited from the extra time John Williams had arfetr the scoring sessions to refine the music for the soundtrack release. I will always get excited over a complete soundtrack release.

[Datameister 2,041]

I suppose what it really comes down to is whether we're interested in soundtracks or film scores. Thor likes soundtracks, most of us like film scores, and if the studios wisened up, every score would get a 1-disc release in abridged form, with the option to also download the complete score in a format of your choice for a few bucks more. Everyone gets what they want. </debate>

Anyway...SpaceCamp, yeah! I'm looking forward to its arrival. Space plus 80s Williams can only be a good thing.

[Wojo 2,453]

Ok, now I think you're an idiot for misunderstanding me for thinking that I called you an idiot. Much like if I thought the "Fuck You!" and "Pretty insane" your above post were directed at me, then I'd be an idiot.

But yes, I listen to complete soundtracks. I have no class. Someone ban me before I tell Thor what I really think of him.

[Thor 7,493]

I suppose what it really comes down to is whether we're interested in soundtracks or film scores. Thor likes soundtracks, most of us like film scores, and if the studios wisened up, every score would get a 1-disc release in abridged form, with the option to also download the complete score in a format of your choice for a few bucks more. Everyone gets what they want. </debate>

Exactly! Thumbs up for that.

Ok, now I think you're an idiot for misunderstanding me for thinking that I called you an idiot. Much like if I thought the "Fuck You!" and "Pretty insane" your above post were directed at me, then I'd be an idiot.

But yes, I listen to complete soundtracks. I have no class. Someone ban me before I tell Thor what I really think of him.

Dude, why the aggression? Did I kill your sister or something?

So I like soundtracks differently than you. So what? Get over it!

Geez.

[Wojo 2,453]

I suppose what it really comes down to is whether we're interested in soundtracks or film scores. Thor likes soundtracks, most of us like film scores, and if the studios wisened up, every score would get a 1-disc release in abridged form, with the option to also download the complete score in a format of your choice for a few bucks more. Everyone gets what they want. </debate>

Exactly! Thumbs up for that.

Uh, we're in a recession. Who can afford to carry that much nearly identical stock on their shelves?

Dude, why the aggression? Did I kill your sister or something?

That's not funny.

[Datameister 2,041]

Read my post again, Wojo. I said they should release exactly one physical album, just like they currently do. It'd just offer you a code inside so you could download the complete soundtrack for a few bucks more if you wanted to. Preferably with a lossless option. Digital storage and bandwidth aren't very expensive, and if fewer people buy, the costs are lower, too. It'd be a very easy and financially viable solution. Everyone could get what they wanted. Most of us would take advantage of the download option, Thor wouldn't, the labels wouldn't lose any money, and this whole debate would be one giant moot point.

[Thor 7,493]

It's not supposed to be funny, Mojo. I just don't understand how you can be so angry for something which is basically a non-issue.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Klaus Badelt is the future.

[Datameister 2,041]

But the studios and labels would never embrace his awesome current approach to releasing his music. The solution I'm suggesting could totally work, and the people who distribute the music would still make their profits.

[Quintus 5,399]

..and so in your opinion, your particular preference of how scores would be released, as say for example, as a "concept album", should be the only way one would be able to own them?

As I said earlier, the IDEAL situation - and the ONLY way to please both camps - is to have TWO simultaneous soundtrack releases: one album and one C&C.

However, that is not often feasible, so we need to make a CHOICE. And since I have the preference I do, I need to choose whatever suits that. Just as you would choose the C&C and consequently rob ME of MY preference. That's how the world goes. We choose what we like, not on behalf of what everyone else likes.

As stated earlier, I don't actually disagree with you - I too often prefer a good ost album over an expanded one. Given the choice, if I could somehow make sure that every single score was produced to my exact specifications, at the detriment of others, I wouldn't personally see it done - if it meant that by doing so I'd be depriving everyone else of a complete score release. Thankfully that situation will never arise, so it seems there really is no "CHOICE" to be made after all.

[Wojo 2,453]

It's not supposed to be funny, Mojo. I just don't understand how you can be so angry for something which is basically a non-issue.

A non-issue? It's only a non-issue because people like you don't make soundtracks. The day that happens, I'll stop buying soundtracks.

[Thor 7,493]

As stated earlier, I don't actually disagree with you - I too often prefer a good ost album over an expanded one. Given the choice, I wouldn't personally deprive everyone else of complete score releases, if it meant that I could somehow make sure that every single score was produced to my exact specifications at the detriment of what others might have wanted. Thankfully that situation will never arise, so it seems there really is no "CHOICE" to be made after all.

Well, you're certainly right about that. These "choices" only exist on a fantasy level. The niche labels will continue to do what they do (present scores in C&C) and the bigger, commercial soundtracks will continue to do what they do (present scores for listening), no matter what you and I say.

However, we can still SPEAK UP and put our preferences, choices and tastes into words. In fact, I believe that is what boards such as these are made for. Even if they won't have any practical application beyond that.

It's not supposed to be funny, Mojo. I just don't understand how you can be so angry for something which is basically a non-issue.

A non-issue? It's only a non-issue because people like you don't make soundtracks. The day that happens, I'll stop buying soundtracks.

As I have already started to do, much due to the pervasive C&C ideology. Thankfully, most commercial labels outside the niche labels still present soundtracks "my way", so I still buy the occasional soundtrack. And of course - when FSM or some other label releases a C&C soundtrack of a Williams score that has not been previously available, I have no choice but to pick it up (since I am a Williams completist). I'll just have to live with that.