Discovering the True John Williams

[Sandor 459]

Since I've been a fan of John Williams, I've never fully exposed myself to his concert works. I often felt his concertos were a bit too modern and I've always prefered his more romantic film compositions. I still do. However; recently I've accepted the fact that the most personal works John Williams has ever created are his concert works, in particular those dealing with John's love for trees.

These last few weeks I've been listening to several of these concertos and I find myself appreciating them more and more. A few years ago I thought them to be devoid of thematic and harmonic material, but I was wrong. There are themes and melodies, but these are profound and incredibly complex. Discovering them and the unique structure in which they are presented is very rewarding. Discovering a different, more personal side of John Williams is even more rewarding.

I'm really interested in your opinions concerning John's concert works.

[Quintus 5,391]

I've not listened to them, simply because I've never gotten around to it. Hopefully I'll eventually get a chance.

Don't agree with your "True" statement though. I think John Williams is as romantic as his vintage era music suggests.

[Sandor 459]

I've not listened to them, simply because I've never gotten around to it. Hopefully I'll eventually get a chance.

Don't agree with your "True" statement though. I think John Williams is as romantic as his vintage era music suggests.

Yeah, the content of the actual post is not really in line with the topic title I admit. Basically I'm talking about compositions being dictated by a narrative personally chosen by Williams (his love for trees) as opposed to film scores where the narrative is determined by the film studios.

[King Mark 2,924]

I think the opposite. I think the True John Williams (what defines him) is film scores. He's the best film composer but he's far from the best concert music composer

[Quintus 5,391]

Basically I'm talking about compositions being dictated by a narrative personally chosen by Williams (his love for trees)

Indeed. As well as his interest in politics. Let's talk about the way in which JW approaches his music for political figures. What are his motivations? What personal feelings does he have when deciding on a musical narrative? Is he a Republican?

Oh wait...

We'd better stick to the trees stuff.

[Docteur Qui 1,248]

I think the opposite. I think the True John Williams (what defines him) is film scores. He's the best film composer but he's far from the best concert music composer

Because you listen to so much contemporary concert music, don't you...

[Quintus 5,391]

Heh heh

[Sandor 459]

I think the opposite. I think the True John Williams (what defines him) is film scores.

Nobody would disagree with you that film scores define Williams for the general public. However, if you had read my initial post...

[Ollie 859]

Since I've been a fan of John Williams, I've never fully exposed myself to his concert works. I often felt his concertos were a bit too modern and I've always prefered his more romantic film compositions. I still do. However; recently I've accepted the fact that the most personal works John Williams has ever created are his concert works, in particular those dealing with John's love for trees.

These last few weeks I've been listening to several of these concertos and I find myself appreciating them more and more. A few years ago I thought them to be devoid of thematic and harmonic material, but I was wrong. There are themes and melodies, but these are profound and incredibly complex. Discovering them and the unique structure in which they are presented is very rewarding. Discovering a different, more personal side of John Williams is even more rewarding.

I'm really interested in your opinions concerning John's concert works.

There is a fresh sound to his concert works that can be lacking in some of his film music. I can understand how some might be put off by them but for me it's a change of pace when I find myself "tired" of his film music and looking for something different.

[Salacius 7]

I think the opposite. I think the True John Williams (what defines him) is film scores. He's the best film composer but he's far from the best concert music composer

I agree with you, JW is always at his best when he is inspired by the visuals, also probably because he is pressed for time and the work ethic gets him into a place where he is most comfortable and inspired.

With his concert works, it seems to me that he tried to get accepted by the society of the so called 'serious music' which spearheads atonal music that in my opinion has been reduced to nonsense in search for the next "new" sounding composition. I personally prefer a composer who follows the basic rules such as Melody, rhythm & harmony any day of the week than hearing people hitting violins with a fish (this is actually true) to create a new orchestral sound. I don't think Williams belongs in the world of the latest offering from the 'modern' orchestral world, and thank God for that...

[Luke Skywalker 1,285]

Ironically some of the best cues from his filmscores are the concert versions

[Datameister 1,394]

I haven't heard too much of Williams' concert works, but I haven't been particularly impressed by the ones I've heard. Indeed, Williams is at his best when he's being inspired by and breathing life into the visuals of a film.

[Henry B 49]

With his concert works, it seems to me that he tried to get accepted by the society of the so called 'serious music' which spearheads atonal music that in my opinion has been reduced to nonsense in search for the next "new" sounding composition. I personally prefer a composer who follows the basic rules such as Melody, rhythm & harmony any day of the week than hearing people hitting violins with a fish (this is actually true) to create a new orchestral sound. I don't think Williams belongs in the world of the latest offering from the 'modern' orchestral world, and thank God for that...

Not everything in the concert music world is avant garde. It's actually much more conservative than it was in the 50s and 60s, when many composers really were abandoning melody and harmony.

[Hlao-roo 388]

I don't doubt that the composer has more artistic freedom, but I don't know that his concert works are automatically more "personal" than his film works. In conceiving and writing his concerti, certainly, he is ever mindful of the performer's artistic strengths and idiosyncracies, which help define the compositional emphases and horizons of the piece along with any formalistic considerations. Obviously the concert hall doesn't demand the click track precision of the silver screen, but it is still very much subject to external forces.

[karelm 2,355]

I don't doubt that the composer has more artistic freedom, but I don't know that his concert works are automatically more "personal" than his film works. In conceiving and writing his concerti, certainly, he is ever mindful of the performer's artistic strengths and idiosyncracies, which help define the compositional emphases and horizons of the piece along with any formalistic considerations. Obviously the concert hall doesn't demand the click track precision of the silver screen, but it is still very much subject to external forces.

That is actually an interesting point - the film music is really his personal response to the story and drama. He said in an interview that he likes to watch without reading the script so he discovers the plot twists and development like the audience would. He would know when he was getting bored to help pick up the pace musically, or when he was surprised, how he would personally react and then he has the skill to translate his personal feelings into music - so I think you are right - his music for film is personal as is his concert music. I think the difference is in what the nature of the inspiration is - many famous concert works have had the source of the inspiration dictated to the composer who was then hired to write in their trademark style (for example: Prokofiev's Eisenstein films, his ballets, Edward Grieg's Peer Gynt, Bach's Brandenberg Concerto, Stravinsky's Firebird, etc.)

I do think the pinnacle of Williams’s achievement lies in his large scale operatic film scores with heart on their sleeves sentiment. With that said, we see another side of him in his concert music – less overt sentimentality perhaps because it is more personal in nature. I think Miklos Rozsa’s concert music was very accomplished and very different from his film music – you can hardly tell it’s the same person but it is very good. It does not sell out concert venues the way his film music might. Basically, his legacy does not rest on his concert music but on his film works. Bernard Herrmann’s concert music was pretty much exactly the same as his film music. Williams is probably somewhere in between – you can hear the same fingerprint, just the degree of sentimentality is toned down (not as sweeping melodically – more introverted and reflective in general) but the harmonic ingenuity, colors are all there.

I believe John Williams's legacy will rest on his film works where the concert music adds to the body of skills and techniques he mastered, however that is not where he will be remembered. It is almost like how Leonardo DaVinci was a scientist (The areas of his scientific study included aeronautics, anatomy, astronomy, botany, engineering, chemistry, geology, math, physics, etc.) however he is most remembered as a painter/sculptor. His mastery of so many varied mediums adds to our understanding of his unique genius.

[Hlao-roo 388]

I don't doubt that the composer has more artistic freedom, but I don't know that his concert works are automatically more "personal" than his film works. In conceiving and writing his concerti, certainly, he is ever mindful of the performer's artistic strengths and idiosyncracies, which help define the compositional emphases and horizons of the piece along with any formalistic considerations. Obviously the concert hall doesn't demand the click track precision of the silver screen, but it is still very much subject to external forces.

That is actually an interesting point - the film music is really his personal response to the story and drama. He said in an interview that he likes to watch without reading the script so he discovers the plot twists and development like the audience would. He would know when he was getting bored to help pick up the pace musically, or when he was surprised, how he would personally react and then he has the skill to translate his personal feelings into music - so I think you are right - his music for film is personal as is his concert music. I think the difference is in what the nature of the inspiration is - many famous concert works have had the source of the inspiration dictated to the composer who was then hired to write in their trademark style (for example: Prokofiev's Eisenstein films, his ballets, Edward Grieg's Peer Gynt, Bach's Brandenberg Concerto, Stravinsky's Firebird, etc.)

I do think the pinnacle of Williams’s achievement lies in his large scale operatic film scores with heart on their sleeves sentiment. With that said, we see another side of him in his concert music – less overt sentimentality perhaps because it is more personal in nature. I think Miklos Rozsa’s concert music was very accomplished and very different from his film music – you can hardly tell it’s the same person. Bernard Herrmann’s concert music was pretty much exactly the same as his film music. Williams is probably somewhere in between – you can hear the same fingerprint, just the degree of sentimentality is toned down (not as sweeping melodically – more introverted and reflective in general) but the harmonic ingenuity, colors are all there.

Great points.

[Sandor 459]

I don't doubt that the composer has more artistic freedom, but I don't know that his concert works are automatically more "personal" than his film works. In conceiving and writing his concerti, certainly, he is ever mindful of the performer's artistic strengths and idiosyncracies, which help define the compositional emphases and horizons of the piece along with any formalistic considerations. Obviously the concert hall doesn't demand the click track precision of the silver screen, but it is still very much subject to external forces.

That is actually an interesting point - the film music is really his personal response to the story and drama. He said in an interview that he likes to watch without reading the script so he discovers the plot twists and development like the audience would. He would know when he was getting bored to help pick up the pace musically, or when he was surprised, how he would personally react and then he has the skill to translate his personal feelings into music - so I think you are right - his music for film is personal as is his concert music. I think the difference is in what the nature of the inspiration is - many famous concert works have had the source of the inspiration dictated to the composer who was then hired to write in their trademark style (for example: Prokofiev's Eisenstein films, his ballets, Edward Grieg's Peer Gynt, Bach's Brandenberg Concerto, Stravinsky's Firebird, etc.)

I do think the pinnacle of Williams’s achievement lies in his large scale operatic film scores with heart on their sleeves sentiment. With that said, we see another side of him in his concert music – less overt sentimentality perhaps because it is more personal in nature. I think Miklos Rozsa’s concert music was very accomplished and very different from his film music – you can hardly tell it’s the same person. Bernard Herrmann’s concert music was pretty much exactly the same as his film music. Williams is probably somewhere in between – you can hear the same fingerprint, just the degree of sentimentality is toned down (not as sweeping melodically – more introverted and reflective in general) but the harmonic ingenuity, colors are all there.

Great points.

Well, of course John Williams will be more remembered for his famous, operatic scores.

This was never in dispute.

However, when somebody states that Listen Without Prejudice Vol. 1 is an album presenting a more honest and true George Michael, and then everybody is saying that he will be remembered more for his Wham! hits, one can wonder if the discussion is taking the right course.

[Thor 5,273]

I've got all of Williams' concert works that are available, and they're really quite engaging once you "get to know them". They vary in complexity and modernity too - from the truly avant garde, like the flute concerto, to the more accesible and romantically inclined, like the violin concerto, the tuba concerto or several of his tree compositions ("The Five Sacred Trees" being the best by far, IMO).

I'm not sure I would say that one is more "true" than the other, though. They're all different faces of Williams' musical personality.

[King Mark 2,924]

Well Williams concertos are all right ,I never said they weren't they just aren't great compared to what others have written

In his film music , he has written some of the best music EVER by any composer (classical music or film scores)

And also ,his film works :Indiana Jones,Star Wars Harry Potter,E.T..that is also mostly what Williams likes to conduct in concerts, so you can't say he likes them less than his concertos on a personal level

[JoeinAR 1,759]

the true John Williams is a jazzist turned film composer who has begun dedicating his life to this latest venture. No one here really knows the true JW. We are free to appreciate any aspect of his music.

[Koray Savas 2,095]

And also ,his film works :Indiana Jones,Star Wars Harry Potter,E.T..that is also mostly what Williams likes to conduct in concerts, so you can't say he likes them less than his concertos on a personal level

While those could be personal favorite scores of his, they are also the ones that sell seats...

[Tom 2,726]

Based on various comments from Williams himself, I get the sense that the "true" Williams-if that adjective has any definite meaning in this context-is the one inspired by a project. Regarding his concertos, he speaks fondly of writing music for the particular performer in question. One gets the sense that that is the true impetus for his concertos. He also speaks in a similar vein about writing for movies. If a particular project moves him, or as he uncomfortably put it in an interview from a year or two ago "turns him on," then he his inspired to write music for it.

Hence, the true Williams is not defined by genre, but by his subjective enthusiasm for a project-whether it is film or concert piece.

[Hlao-roo 388]

Like all men, Williams is defined by his erections.

[Koray Savas 2,095]

"Do I-do I conduct with my penis?"

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,476]

I don't listen to his concert works much at all.

Star Wars, Jaws, E.T., Superman, Close Encounters...only then have you obtained the one TRUE Williams.

[ChrisAfonso 159]

I think Miklos Rozsa’s concert music was very accomplished and very different from his film music – you can hardly tell it’s the same person but it is very good.

Interestingly, I find that Rozsa is one composer who has a more unified style between concert works and film scores, as opposed to Williams.