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Posted
4 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

The Shadow has amazing themes.

3 minutes ago, The Score Cleaner said:

The Shadow has fabulous themes.

 

The Shadow Knows GIF - The Shadow Knows - Discover & Share GIFs

 

 

But would even the big Total Recall fans make such a claim about that score? I assume they have to like it for its other fine qualities.

 

Of course, not every score has to have great themes. Planet of the Apes is a masterpiece and its central idea isn't exactly an earworm. But Total Recall, for me, has a relatively mediocre main theme/motif at its core, which I've always found to be somewhat boring. (Sorry!)

 

Yavar

Posted
2 hours ago, Yavar Moradi said:

And Total Recall has the great synth/orchestra combination and cool soundscapes of The Shadow... but it is *severely* lacking in good themes.

 

Yes, ok, but I say it doesn't need them. And its use of *motifs* is excellent and far more intricate than I'm usually aware. I honestly don't see how a great theme would even fit in there. It's got a permanent spot among my (not numbered or counted) top tier Goldsmith scores.

Posted
42 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

Yes, ok, but I say it doesn't need them. And its use of *motifs* is excellent and far more intricate than I'm usually aware.


But par for the course, with Goldsmith, to be honest. The Shadow has four excellent themes, plus additional motifs, which get a lot of development in intricate fashion throughout the score. I’d rather listen to The Shadow over Total Recall, any day.

 

42 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

I honestly don't see how a great theme would even fit in there.


So how does The Shadow (not to mention a whole heap of other Goldsmith scores) manage it? ;)

 

42 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

It's got a permanent spot among my (not numbered or counted) top tier Goldsmith scores.


Hey, I get it — my Goldsmith Top 20 must have like 50 scores. 🤣 

 

Yavar

Posted
4 hours ago, Yavar Moradi said:

I enjoy First Knight a lot but it's often overly simplistic

What? I don't remember anything being that way.

As for The Shadow, I've listened to it once and I don't remember it grabbing me.

I might be mistaken though, I should listen to it again..

 

 

Posted
3 hours ago, Yavar Moradi said:

 

The short answer is: "Things get pretty messy trying to figure out a chronological 'story' playlist, because for the album Goldsmith combined cues from different parts of the film, and even composed special linking material to connect them so you can't easily split them apart."

 

Longer: Here's the chronological listing of cues from the sketches at the Academy's Herrick Library...

https://academycollection.org/web/arena/search#/entity/academy/71303030/under-fire---music-sketches

 

1-1a "Main Title," 4 pages; 1-1 "Main Title," 3 pages; 1-1 "Main Title," 8 pages [full score; orchestrated by Arthur Morton]

3-2 "The Nightclub," 2 pages

4-1 "Sandinistas," 5 pages

4-2/5-1 "Under Ground," 5 pages

5-3 "The Sniper," 8 pages; "new end," 2 pages; "tag," 1 page; 5-3 "The Sniper," 15 pages [full score; orchestrated by Arthur Morton]

5-4 "Have We Changed," 9 pages

6-1 "No Parties," 4 pages

7-1 "Periodista," 4 pages

7-2 "The River," 9 pages; 7-2 "The River (revised)," 6 pages

8-1 "The Picture," 10 pages; 8-1 "The Picture (revised)," 3 pages

8-2 "Rebel Victory," 10 pages [and "new ending," 1 page]; 8-2 "Rebel Victory (revised)," 7 pages

9-1 "The Pictures," 3 pages

9-1/10-1 "Link," 1 page

10-1 "The Secret Room," 5 pages

11-1 "Directions," 2 pages

11-2 "Alex's Death," 12 pages; "new tag," 1 page

11-3 "Bulletin," 1 page

12-2 "Just a Story," 1 page

13-1 "The Flag," 9 pages; 13-1 "The Flag," 15 pages [full score; orchestrated by Arthur Morton]

13-3 "50 Thousand Dead," 3 pages

6-1/13-3 "Link," 1 page

14-1 "It's Over," 5 pages

14-3 "End Title," 12 pages

"Love Theme," 5 pages

"Guitar Suite," 17 pages [several pages are photocopied come sopras]

 

Those last two compositions are for the album's "A New Love" and "Bajo Fuego", the two pieces written and recorded just for the album (which is why they don't have reel and part numbers), as the opening track of each side of the original LP. I think at least some of the listed revisions, plus stuff like "new ending", "new tag", and maybe even the cues marked "Link", are all probably examples of this:

https://www.filmscoremonthly.com/cds/Under-Fire/

 

The FSM liner notes themselves go even further in depth:

https://musicbrainz.org/release/b093f9f6-c853-484d-b3a8-76e5fd756003/cover-art

 

So all of those caveats in mind (man, even though not a lot of minutes are missing, if tapes can ever be found it would be great to have a 2CD set of this score some day with the original film versions before the edits/revisions/linking material, on their own disc), if you want to have as chronological a presentation of the score as possible (prioritizing the most important cues keeping their proper placement), here's what I'd go with:

 

1. Bajo Fuego (aka "Guitar Suite"...you can either move this mini guitar concerto written for Pat Metheny to the end of the whole program where I'm putting the other album track "A New Love", or leave it here at the beginning. It's such a great and familiar opening piece that I'm inclined to leave it here as a sort of Overture, even though it's not in the film...this placement makes it kinda foreshadow that overlapping minute of "Alex's Death" rather than reprising it)

2. Sniper ("The Sniper", 5M3, both parts)

3. House of Hammocks ("Have We Changed?", 5M4)

11. Rafael's Theme ("The Picture", 8M1)

6. Rafael ("Rebel Victory", 8M2)

4. Betrayal ("The Pictures", 9M1 / "Link" / "The Secret Room", 10M1 ... these two cues linked for the album are at least for consecutive cues in the film)

Intrada's BONUS cue: Alex's Death (falls in the film between "The Secret Room" and "The Flag", although there are other shorter cues missing on either side of it)

8. Sandino ("Sandinistas", 4M1 / "The Flag", 13M1 ... though the first cue is actually the film's earliest which appears on the album, it is less than half the track so I'm deferring to the second in terms of placement)

9. Alex's Theme ("No Parties", 6M1 / "50 Thousand Dead", 13M2 ...presumably the Herrick number 13-3 is slightly off, possibly due to the film being re-edited?)

5. 19 de Julio ("Periodista", 7M1 / "It's Over" 14M1 ...the first cue is only about 40 seconds long so I'm deferring to the much more important second cue, in terms of placement)

10. Fall of Managua ("Just a Story, 12M1 / "Rebel Victory (plus new ending)", 14M2A... see FSM notes about this being unused at the end, in the film)

12. Nicaragua ("End Title", 14M3)

7. A New Love (aka "Love Theme", special album arrangement of Rafael's Theme which I think works well at the end of the program)

 

Hope that helps, but as you can see it's not perfect. We'd need something on the level of Intrada's complete & chronological Secret of NIMH presentation for this score, ideally.

 

Yavar

In other words, the completely unreleased cues that we don't have right now are:

  • 1M1/1M1a Main Titles - Which apparently got 3 versions, one shorter with just 3 pages, one slightly longer at 4 pages and one much longer at 8 pages. Which one is the film version?
  • 3M2 The Nightclub - Judging by the name, this is a source cue, right?
  • 4M2/5M1 Under Ground 
  • 7M2 The River - Probably the longest unreleased cue, alongside with the long version of the Main Titles, if more pages = more music written = a longer cue.
  • 11M1 Directions
  • 11M3 Bulletin
  • 6M1/13M1 Link - The most curious case... There are two short cues named "Link", one of which (9M1/10M1) is on the OST at track 4, and the other one that isn't. The one that isn't is marked with two different reel/part numbers, which makes me think it was written for Reel 6 but then got tracked into Reel 13 (or perhaps the opposite, written for 13 and tracked for 6).

And that's not accounting for alternates and the like.

 

If (and that's a huge if) one day an expanded edition is released, there's also an additional challenge. You said Goldsmith wrote and recorded material to link (no relation to the two cues named "Link", right?) cues from different parts of the movie for the OST. So how would a potential expanded edition do it?

 

My guess: a 2 CD version, with film versions and alternates on CD 1 (I assume there aren't too many alternates so that they can fit them all on one disc alongside the main program) and the remastered OST on CD 2.

Posted
4 hours ago, Yavar Moradi said:

 

 I think at least some of the listed revisions, plus stuff like "new ending", "new tag", and maybe even the cues marked "Link", 

 

3 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

 (no relation to the two cues named "Link", right?) 

 

Posted

9M1/10M1 Link is in OST track 4, linking 9M1 The Picture to 10M1 The Secret Room there.

 

6M3/13M3 Link is is OST track 9, linking 6M3 No Parties to 13M3 50 Thousand Dead there.

 

 

13 hours ago, Edmilson said:

You said Goldsmith wrote and recorded material to link (no relation to the two cues named "Link", right?)

 

That's exactly what the name means and what those cues are. Linking material for the album.

Posted

Thanks. Allow me to post a revised version of the potentially unreleased cues then:

  • 1M1/1M1a Main Titles - Which apparently got 3 versions, one shorter with just 3 pages, one slightly longer at 4 pages, and one much longer at 8 pages. Which one is the film version?
  • 3M2 The Nightclub - Judging by the name, this is a source cue, right?
  • 4M2/5M1 Under Ground 
  • 7M2 The River - Probably the longest unreleased cue, alongside the long version of the Main Titles, if more pages = more music written = a longer cue.
  • 11M1 Directions
  • 11M3 Bulletin

In other words, 6 totally unreleased cues, one of which may be a source cue and one that has versions. And that's not accounting for other potential revisions, inserts, alternates and the like.

 

If an expanded edition is ever released, hopefully it'll be a 2CD version: the film score in chronological order plus the alternates on CD 1, and the remastered OST on CD 2.

Posted

I love Total Recall, but it leaves me cold if I’m not in the right mood for it. It’s lacking in any warmth or humanity. Boasts some of the greatest action music ever done by anyone so it’s A-tier Goldsmith on my list and not up at the top.

 

It’s surreal seeing my old posts where I didn’t like Goldsmith’s Mummy and preferred Silvestri’s. Couldn’t be more opposite these days, though Silvestri’s has a couple good cues.

My playlist I burned to a CD keeps some extra cues (The Locusts, Sand Storm, Librarian, Undiscovered Creature and Desert Burial) and I vastly prefer Intrada’s rougher mix to how dull the Decca album sounds (probably why I didn’t click with the score on its own until the Intrada release). 

Maybe someday 13th Warrior will jive with me, but for now I say it lacks sauce. The Mummy has sauce. And a cat. It’s got a cat.

Posted

I find it funny how Schwarzenegger movies after Conan often used the same musical style for the main titles.

I think, it started with Conan, with this metallic percussion, then the long trombone notes (ok, in Terminator it were synth).

But somehow they seem all like a Conan tribute.

 

 

 

 

Posted

It was apparently an intentional in-joke of Jerry’s with his friend Basil — they wanted to see if Paul Verhoeven (or anyone?) would notice.

 

 

12 hours ago, filmmusic said:

What? I don't remember anything being that way.


It’s all relative. Just because it’s a more simple and streamlined 90s Goldsmith score compared with The Shadow, or The Mummy, or things from previous decades like Lionheart, doesn’t mean it isn’t fairly complex still, relative to what most other composers were writing in the era.

 

12 hours ago, filmmusic said:

As for The Shadow, I've listened to it once and I don't remember it grabbing me.

I might be mistaken though, I should listen to it again..


You absolutely should! Maybe the expanded program was just a bit too long for you at an hour and a half, or maybe you were turned off by Goldsmith basically being asked to write a score in the vein of Elfman’s Batman… but Goldsmith really transcended that assignment, IMO, and made it his own with a score full of depth, complexity, and thematic development.

 

Yavar

Posted
14 minutes ago, Yavar Moradi said:

It was apparently an intentional in-joke of Jerry’s with his friend Basil — they wanted to see if Paul Verhoeven (or anyone?) would notice.

 

Is that for real?

Posted
1 hour ago, Yavar Moradi said:

It was apparently an intentional in-joke of Jerry’s with his friend Basil — they wanted to see if Paul Verhoeven (or anyone?) would notice.

We noticed, alright. We noticed, in 1990 :lol:

Posted
1 hour ago, Tallguy said:

Is that for real?

 

Yup. I can't remember who told me now, but it was somebody who knew Jerry and would know. The two composers were very close friends and shared a sense of humor.

 

5 minutes ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

We noticed, alright. We noticed, in 1990 :lol:

 

I think it was more of a test of people working on the film, as opposed to us nerdy film music fans. ;)

 

Yavar

Posted
30 minutes ago, Yavar Moradi said:

Yup. I can't remember who told me now, but it was somebody who knew Jerry and would know. The two composers were very close friends and shared a sense of humor.

 

So cool that they were friends. (Did Jerry surf?) So weird that they would do this. Even weirder still since so many people consider this score to be Top Jerry.

Posted
47 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

So cool that they were friends. (Did Jerry surf?) So weird that they would do this. Even weirder still since so many people consider this score to be Top Jerry.

 

 

My impression is that their connection was music, and mutual admiration of each others'. Someday maybe I'll interview Zoe Poledouris and ask her... or maybe Richard Kraft would know, since he was agent to both of them.

 

I agree it's kinda weird that it happened. But not surprised that it doesn't affect people's love of Total Recall as a score (even if I don't share it). After all, it's only a few seconds at the beginning of the first cue and then becomes something totally different.


Yavar

Posted

Call The Midwife, Vol. 2 - Maurizio Malagnini

 

I love Malagnini's music! His scores for Copellia & Peter & Wendy are outstanding. He's been mostly scoring this BBC drama for the last 10 years. The music is highly classical, focusing mostly on piano and strings and just radiates beauty. It's all just wonderful and for me is just highlight after highlight!

 

The show is ending this year, so I'm hoping Malagnini will be scoring more new and diverse things in the future. He's such an excellent composer!

Posted
21 hours ago, Yavar Moradi said:
22 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said:

I honestly don't see how a great theme would even fit in there.


So how does The Shadow (not to mention a whole heap of other Goldsmith scores) manage it? ;)

 

I enjoy The Shadow very much, but I don't consider it on the same level as Total Recall… so I guess for me it doesn't. :lol:

Posted
1 hour ago, Yavar Moradi said:

On what criteria does Total Recall succeed better than The Shadow, for you?

 

I should spend some more time with The Shadow, because I definitely don't know it half as well as Total Recall - but so far, it's always felt like a fine score with some standout highlights, whereas Total Recall just feels so… integral. I always say this, Rambo II, and Baby are the pinnacle of Goldsmith's action scoring, but of those three, TR certainly is the most consistent. Aside from all the intricate action writing and the gorgeous Mars miracle music in between, I guess what makes it so strong throughout is that it flows so well from beginning to end.

Posted
1 hour ago, Marian Schedenig said:

and Baby 

You mean Baby: Secret of the Lost Legend?

Oh, I should listen to that one again, I don't remember anything!

Posted

Taps_KR20027.jpg

I searhed for this based on this comment at another forum:

Quote

I absolutely love Maurice Jarre's score to The Only Game In Town and will always be grateful for the Kritzerland label for releasing it on CD. A very atypical score for Jarre as it doesn't sound like anything else he's ever done.

Well, I listened to it yesterday, but I don't remember anything from Taps.

And the thing I remember from The only game in town is that it didn't sound like a typical Jarre score indeed, and it was like source music.

Posted
On 22/01/2026 at 4:06 PM, Yavar Moradi said:

It was apparently an intentional in-joke of Jerry’s with his friend Basil — they wanted to see if Paul Verhoeven (or anyone?) would notice.

 

First time I heard Poledouris' Conan, its main title reminded me a bit of Capricorn One. 

 

Jerry took far too much flack for 'cribbing' from Basil 

Posted
17 hours ago, Edmilson said:

Thanks. Allow me to post a revised version of the potentially unreleased cues then:

  • 1M1/1M1a Main Titles - Which apparently got 3 versions, one shorter with just 3 pages, one slightly longer at 4 pages, and one much longer at 8 pages. Which one is the film version?
  • 3M2 The Nightclub - Judging by the name, this is a source cue, right?
  • 4M2/5M1 Under Ground 
  • 7M2 The River - Probably the longest unreleased cue, alongside the long version of the Main Titles, if more pages = more music written = a longer cue.
  • 11M1 Directions
  • 11M3 Bulletin

In other words, 6 totally unreleased cues, one of which may be a source cue and one that has versions. And that's not accounting for other potential revisions, inserts, alternates and the like.

 

If an expanded edition is ever released, hopefully it'll be a 2CD version: the film score in chronological order plus the alternates on CD 1, and the remastered OST on CD 2.

 

I'm pretty sure this is all accurate, yes, and that suggested 2CD approach (along the lines of what Intrada did for The Secret of NIMH last year) is exactly what I would hope for, since special sweeteners and revisions and connecting music were done for Under Fire's album maybe more than any other Goldsmith score (to the point that some people assumed it was a unique album recording). Hopefully elements turn up some day as they did for NIMH, after a decade of hearing they were lost.

 

Judging from my Twilight Time isolated M&E rip, no "The Nightclub" is not a source cue. It's a 22 second score cue, in the film. On the M&E I hear the sound of photos being taken... probably of a nightclub exterior, from outside. Also, I can tell you from listening to this that "Sandinistas", the cue immediately following it, was cut down on the album (perhaps to effect a transition into "The Flag"). It absolutely has a lot of unique stuff in the second half that was cut out (1:41 of it is on the album, vs. 3:08 in the film). If you want to know the length of the other unreleased cues here's what I can tell from the iso (which of course doesn't include any music that may have been recorded, if it was cut from the film):

 

1. Main Title 2:02

2. The Nightclub 0:22

3. Sandinistas 3:08 (1:27 of which is not on the album)

4. Under Ground 0:57

5. The Sniper (Part 1? A little bit of music unique to the film is at the end, and the second half of the cue on album is not in the film -- see the FSM notes) 1:40

6. Have We Changed? 3:11 (aka "House of Hammocks" on the album)

7. No Parties 1:30 (I think a bit of this is unique to the film; on album this cue gets 1:20)

8. Periodista 1:34 (0:54 of which is not on the album; only the first 40 seconds or so is used in the album track 19 de Julio)

9. The River 2:28 (yes, this has a much faster tempo than the very low-key Main Title cue... perhaps the original version of this Goldsmith composed was for a longer cut of the scene because it was half again as many pages of written music as the revised film version)

10. The Picture 3:41 (some of what Goldsmith wrote and recorded -- all present on the album -- is cut out of the film, which is why the corresponding album track labeled "Rafael's Theme" is half a minute longer)

11. Rebel Victory 2:33 (aka "Rafael" on the album)

12. The Pictures 1:06 (opening of "Betrayal" on the album; all used though there might be sweetener differences)

13. ??? 0:41 (this is not "The Secret Room" which I would expect going by the list of sketches; I'll have to figure out whether this 41 seconds of music corresponds to anything on the album but it might be a cue we don't know the title of)

14. The Secret Room 2:57 (this seems to exactly correspond to the second part of "Betrayal" on the album, after the brief "Link" music Goldsmith used to connect it to "The Pictures")

15. Directions 2:09 (How did only two pages of written music result in a cue this long? Well, if you listen to it on the iso track you'll understand; there's really very little going on here in this suspense cue and I could well imagine skipping it on a complete album.)

16. Alex's Death 3:04 (bolding this because the original recording is still unreleased, though I'm so grateful for Intrada recording it)

17. Bulletin 0:34 (short and lovely low-key cue, but still more substance here than in all of "Directions")

18. Just a Story 0:27 (included in full on the album as the opening of "Fall of Managua")

19. The Flag (opening 0:41 not on the album track "Sandino")

20. 50 Thousand Dead (second half of album track "Alex's Theme)

21. It's Over (gets dialed out a bit early in the film; presumably complete as second part of album track "19 de Julio")

22. End Title (the opening seems different in the film so maybe something was tracked, but most of the music and the overall timings match up)

 

So I actually was off in my previous assessment that there's only a few minutes of music still missing besides "Alex's Death". I was thrown off by the album having a decent amount of music (besides the two tracks recorded specifically for it) which didn't make it into the film. Including the original recording of "Alex's Death", there's maybe about a quarter hour of material in the film which isn't on album. Not insignificant! And of course it's possible that Goldsmith wrote and recorded some material (maybe longer early versions of cues, like "The River" which was 9 pages in its original version vs. 6 pages revised?) which didn't ever make it into the film or onto the album.

 

Yavar

Posted

Don Davis - The Matrix (Varese Complete)

Listened to my physical copy of the SACD release, accidentally opened because I forgot I bought it along with the standard CD version.  Oh well.  Boy, what a great score!

Posted

qr612.jpg

 

I'm afraid I didn't like this (besides some source-sounding cues which were OK).

Delerue is great in dramas, but I don't know about other genres.

Posted

Mao's Last Dancer - Christopher Gordon

 

 

Another excellent score from Gordon, so melodic, beautiful and a perfectly dramatic structure from beginning to end. But it wouldn't have sounded this good if the musicians weren't up to par with the writing. The Sydney musicians sound just as impeccable and spot-on as their counterparts in Los Angeles or London.

 

Producers and studios keep sleeping on Gordon's compositional talents. He would be on my top 3 composer list if I directed a comic book movie.

Posted

Jerry Goldsmith The Edge

IMG_8269.jpeg

 

Ahhh now that’s more like it.  This was my first listen outside the film. Easily one of his best 90s scores.  It’s like a showcase of all his best techniques. The soaring wilderness theme, the bear motif, some rambunctious percussion.  Jerry even brings back the motif from ALIEN heard in “The Shaft”.  And at one disc with a few bonus tracks, it doesn’t go in too long.  This will get a lot of play from me.  Better than Medicine Man, another 90s outdoorsy drama, and the last Jerry score I listened to. 
 

John Barry - Thunderball 

IMG_8270.jpeg

 

Well the sound quality is just brilliant, but I have to dial back my enthusiasm for the full score a bit.  Chronologically, it takes a lot of sneaking around music to get to the more dramatic and exciting bits. Somehow I think this played better on the 2003 disc.  So maybe it could use some trimming, but I never will do that.  Maybe just some time to get used to its narrative, because once that 007 theme from FRWL kicks in, it’s balls to the wall action.  I understand Barry was in a hurry to finish this.  It’s too bad because I think both Thunderball and Mr Kiss Kiss Bang Bang are terrific themes that could’ve been integrated more frequently to add interest.  But no matter, these restorations are so freaking amazing and important.  I just love them, and this is coming from someone who hasn’t even seen all the Bond movies. 
 

Patrick Gleeson’s Star Wars

 

IMG_8271.jpeg

 

1977.  Not 1978. This guy wasted no time in getting out his synthesizer/prog rock/ disco fusion of John Williams’ 1977 sensation.  And it’s f*ing brilliant.  He starts out adhering to Williams’ compositions, but quickly goes wonderfully off the rails with pieces entitled “Droids” and “The Death Star”  We’re all making a fuss over the trio of musicians doing John Williams Reimagined but this pioneer was really going off the reservation with his interpretations.  I live for this stuff. Not only is it a perfect time capsule of a Star Wars mania cash in, but you also get cylon voices “singing” lyrics like “Artoo Detoo! Artoo Detoo!”  The liner notes suggest this Gleeson fellow thought Lucas should have chosen him for the score.  While I can’t agree, I love this album available from BSX, but sadly  with updated inferior cover art.  Just check out the reverse art of an airbrushed image of the righteous Gleeson himself. 
 

IMG_8272.jpeg
 

I want to listen on 8 track in a black van with shag carpeting and airbrushed artwork on the exterior: a mix of Star Wars, the CE3K mothership, the TOS Enterprise, and some Frazetta barbarians and women, all off-model. 
 

IMG_8273.jpeg

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