Potterdom Film/Score Series Thread

[Datameister 2,042]

I've always thought of the theme heard most frequently in "Harry's Wondrous World" as Harry's theme, and then I've thought of the theme heard more briefly in the middle (just before the Quidditch music) as the family theme, although Williams was never very strict or literal about the leitmotivic meanings of ANY of his Potter themes. They're generally associated with certain characters and settings and objects and ideas, but he placed a higher value on getting the emotions right than on using the themes that were technically "correct."

EDIT: By the way, I forgot to mention that I agree with those who think the scene with Harry and Ron changing clothes and Hermione just standing there in her (admittedly hot) Bellatrix costume was a dreadful wasted opportunity, but oh well.

[MSM 126]

I've always thought of the theme heard most frequently in "Harry's Wondrous World" as Harry's theme, and then I've thought of the theme heard more briefly in the middle (just before the Quidditch music) as the family theme, although Williams was never very strict or literal about the leitmotivic meanings of ANY of his Potter themes. They're generally associated with certain characters and settings and objects and ideas, but he placed a higher value on getting the emotions right than on using the themes that were technically "correct."

I think we're talking about the same. The Family theme is indeed also in Harry's Wondrous World, it is the one accompanied by the high woodwind clustered chords.

[Jay 37,353]

I finally saw the film the other night as well. For the first half, I wasn't with it at all. Was almost bored actually, something wasn't just clicking. The way the movie opens with like 10 straight minutes of dialogue was off-putting, the Gringott's Escape wasn't what it could have been, Alberforth's scene just felt awkward and like it wasn't adapted right, the initial scenes at Hogwart's seemed kinda off as well. But then the Snape's Story sequence happened.

Absolutely the highlight of the film! It was so well done, and it was so CINEMATIC. It was the one time outside of maybe HPPOA that it truly felt like they were making an effort to ADAPT things for the cinema rather than just presenting scenes from the book. I loved how it was non-chronological, how it used footage from the other films, how it made you FEEL all the emotions Snape has felt for 40+ years. It was extremely well done. And then everything after that scene was much stronger than the first. Glad to get to see the kids and OOTP members fight so valiantly to save Hogwarts and help Harry's talk with the Ravenclaw ghost was fun (but made me miss John Cleese from the first two). I liked the interaction with Harry and Voldemort. Harry talking to the dead ones with the stone was pretty well done. The chase to kill Nagini was pretty good.

Here's some things I didn't like:

- HOW little screen time ALL the supporting cast got. People just show up for LITERALLY a shot or two, sometimes with no lines! Oh there's Trelawney, oop she's gone. Percy is back! Oh nevermind he has no lines, just like in the 5th movie. Pettigrew was only seen in the penseive, no resolution to his character. Tonks dies before we ever got to know her (in the films). The death of George (Fred?) was handled SO poorly. Yates REALLY should have dedicated some more screen time to showing the emotions of that. What was presented didn't do it for me.

-Didn't like how all the spells were visible. It was so silly when in Gringotts they Imperiused people, and you saw a green light covering their face. Was that supposed to be visible to the other characters?

- OK stick with me for a second. When Voldemort "killed" Harry in the woods, he SAID "Avada Kedavra", which is consistent with every other time that spell is used in the series. At various other points in their battle, Harry and Voldy would fire spells at each other at the same time and they would block each other out, like in GOF. At the end when Voldemort finally died, it looked like that, and not like an Avada Kadavra. What I mean is, he never SAID the spell name for that final shot, it was just more light flying at each other, with Voldy eventually falling back and dying. They made it seem like Harry overpowered Voldy somehow, instead of the spell bouncing off Harry and killing Voldy instead like in the book.

-What happened to Voldemort when he died. Isn't the point of Avada Kedavra that it kills someone with no mark, no way for (a muggle) to tell what killed them? Why did Voldemort turn into skin flecks that floated away? Is that what happened in the book? (I don't remember)

-The romance wasn't handled well. Columbus started setting up the Hermione/Ron romance at the end of movie 2, but then other than Ron's jealousy of Hermione at the Holiday ball in GOF, and Hermione's jealousy of Ron in HBP, they really didn't built it up much in the films, so it just seemed to sudden to suddenly kiss in the middle of a war in the film. Then again, I remember thinking Hermione and Ron's first kiss wasn't handled well in the book either when I first read it.

-Mrs Weasley saying "not my daughter you bitch!" just seemed out of place. Glad to see Bellatrix die on screen though (did she die the same way in the book?)

Other random thoughts:

- I really liked Hermione polyjuiced as Bellatrix. Was funny, and HBC actually managed to be attractive somehow. Hermione was also hot in her clothes afterwards when the spell wore off. Lamest scene in the movie: The camera spins round and round and round the trio and Harry and Ron take off their shirts completely, then put on clean shirts, while in that whole time Hermione manages to take off like, a jacket. Harumph.

-In the end they did screw up with Cho, I think. We were saying a few pages back that she should be at the Hogwarts battle because in the book she returns to fight, although that didn't explain her appearance on the train in DH1. Well now that doesn't matter anyway because in this film she was wearing her Hogwarts uniform, which she wouldn't have done if she was just there to help fight.

-The 19 Years Later epilogue was just an unnecessary in the film as it was in the books. Wish they hadn't bothered to film it. However, the music did sound wonderful.

Oh, and the end credits was indeed a re-recorded Hedwig's Theme (with sections removed), followed by some Desplat material. We left as soon as that started.

oh, speaking of the score, it was terrible! It was actually offended by how inappropriate it was sometimes. Out of all the post-Williams films, this was easily the one that needed an epic sounding fantasy score the most. And Desplat didn't deliver at all. Too many times the music was dull and un-imaginative. But mostly the spotting was off. There were times music was playing that there didn't need to be any, and LOTS of times that there was no music when there REALLY should have been. One that comes to mind is towards the end, when Harry is fighting Voldemort on the stairs, and in the background you see some random other people fighting too. BUT THERE IS NO MUSIC! It was just so wrong. Not a fan at all.

[MSM 126]

Thanks for the review. Lot of points I agree. You guys should copy and paste your reviews to the review thread!

[Datameister 2,042]

Oh, and the end credits was indeed a re-recorded Hedwig's Theme (with sections removed), followed by some Desplat material. We left as soon as that started.

Actually, I felt pretty certain that it was just the same old recording of Hedwig's Theme. For starters, there was absolutely nothing new in it, so it's not like it was a new arrangement that needed to be freshly recorded. (It actually might have been better if that had been the case...there were a few spots where they jumped rather awkwardly to different spots in the cue.) I did listen closely to the performance and couldn't pick up on any differences between it and the version recorded for the first film. It really just sounded like the same recording. I could be totally wrong, but I felt pretty certain as I was listening.

[indy4 155]

Oh, and the end credits was indeed a re-recorded Hedwig's Theme (with sections removed), followed by some Desplat material. We left as soon as that started.

Actually, I felt pretty certain that it was just the same old recording of Hedwig's Theme. For starters, there was absolutely nothing new in it, so it's not like it was a new arrangement that needed to be freshly recorded. (It actually might have been better if that had been the case...there were a few spots where they jumped rather awkwardly to different spots in the cue.) I did listen closely to the performance and couldn't pick up on any differences between it and the version recorded for the first film. It really just sounded like the same recording. I could be totally wrong, but I felt pretty certain as I was listening.

Wasn't there a new section with Hedwig's B Theme?

[MSM 126]

How about this: in 20 years they could make a remake of the Epilogue with the same actors, then really 20 years older. For the 20th Anniversary version

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

Harry's theme is indeed the second theme heard in Harry's Wondrous World, although sometimes the fist theme is also referred to as Harry's Theme or the Castle Theme, while it is in fact the secondary theme to Hedwig's Theme.

If you watch the movie (the first one, since that seems to be the only one where Williams cared about what his themes represent), it seems very clear to me that the primary theme of HWW is Harry's theme. It's used whenever Harry has some sort of personal moment or success, whereas the family theme (the secondary theme in HWW) is also often used to represent Harry in context with his friends and family.

[MSM 126]

Harry's theme is indeed the second theme heard in Harry's Wondrous World, although sometimes the fist theme is also referred to as Harry's Theme or the Castle Theme, while it is in fact the secondary theme to Hedwig's Theme.

If you watch the movie (the first one, since that seems to be the only one where Williams cared about what his themes represent), it seems very clear to me that the primary theme of HWW is Harry's theme. It's used whenever Harry has some sort of personal moment or success, whereas the family theme (the secondary theme in HWW) is also often used to represent Harry in context with his friends and family.

I think we are talking about the same thing. What you call the primary theme, I call the second theme, because the intro has already Hedwig's Theme B.

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

Yes, I think I misread part of your post the first time.

[fommes 153]

Jason, thanks for your review, which I mostly agree with. I love how you say the first half was bad, and then you say the montage scene turned the film around, while all your following criticism is from the second part! No disagreement here, I thought the whole thing was very poorly handled by director and screenwriter (while excellently handled by just about everyone else). Don't break your head over all the inconsistencies and weird decisions in the Kedavra scenes; not worth trying to make sense of them

Everyone keeps bringing up the montage scene as the best thing in the film, which I mostly agree with but it's due to Alan Rickman.

By the way, did anyone else notice that the people who argue Yates can direct always mention the montage scenes in the films almost exclusively as examples? I'm thinking that's undermining their own position (taking a few previously filmed bits and glue them together is not exactly the best example where directing shines through).

Anyway - back to the Snape montage scene - I thought the original idea was good, but it was again rather poorly executed: it's difficult to follow - not good difficult, but bad difficult (I would have slowed it down much more and letting it play out on Rickman's obvious strength - pronounce 'obvious' in the Rickman way, please!); there are a bunch of adaptation flaws in it (for example they're paying off some things they never even told us in previous movies); for non-book readers it even helps implying that Snape is Harry's father, as we discussed; and if I remember well it even uses tracked music in the end. I like the 'cinematic' attempt, but there's so much wrong with it.

But again, I would like to make my central point here: I don't dislike the montage scene - but I don't like it being so flawed. Basically what I'm trying to say is, almost everyone (including defenders) is walking away from this film content, thinking 'it could have been much worse'. Me too - but with these films (and this great source material), I wanted to walk away awed, thinking 'this couldn't have been any better'. I didn't want just entertainment, or mediocrity for these films.

I thought the score was awesome (one of the film's highlights, even though it shines more on CD) within the constraints set by the director - being familiar with Desplat's work and with Hooper's scores, I think it's safe to say that Yates or the producer is behind those: some of the meandering underscore that has the Nolan philosophy behind it, the RC-styled drums, the tracking. A lot of inappropriateness indeed. I'm glad Desplat made the most of it, but it's clear he's been held back. Again a missed chance.

It's just such a damn pity! The film series could have been so much more than the book series, but they decided to make book illustrations instead.

[crocodile 8,008]

I wonder whether someone will do a Tom Riddle prequel saga now.

Somehow I doube they will just let it lie. Not after such a box office run for 10 years.

Karol

[indy4 155]

Does Rowling have control over that kind of thing? I doubt she would allow it.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[fommes 153]

I wonder whether someone will do a Tom Riddle prequel saga now.

I've wondered about the prequel thing, too. They did leave out everything possible about any backstory of Voldemort and Dumbledore.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Because the movies are called Harry Potter and the....

Please, no prequels!

[Once 605]

Does Rowling have control over that kind of thing? I doubt she would allow it.

She owns the stories, not the characters. They can do what they want with them. But it seems like they care a lot about Rowling's input and decisions.

[Incanus 5,714]

Because the movies are called Harry Potter and the....

Please, no prequels!

Tom Riddle and the Deadly Prequels Parts I-XXV

They can haul all and I mean all living British actors to star in this series of drawn-out films.

[MSM 126]

Because the movies are called Harry Potter and the....

Please, no prequels!

How about sequels? About Albus Severus Potter

[Henry B 50]

Ack...

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

That name alone suggests she planned to never write next generation sequels.

[Incanus 5,714]

That name alone suggests she planned to never write next generation sequels.

That's the name of the new series!

Harry Potter the Next Generation

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Does Rowling have control over that kind of thing? I doubt she would allow it.

She owns the stories, not the characters. They can do what they want with them. But it seems like they care a lot about Rowling's input and decisions.

Bull, she owns it all. Let someone do something and watch her unleash legal hell.

[Once 605]

I think it was a Jonathan Ross interview in which he stated that they could basically makes "Harry Potter on Crack" if they wanted to.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I rather doubt it.

[fommes 153]

Well, we've already seen Dumbledore and Voldemort on crack - in the fourth movie - so we want more!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[King Mark 3,631]

Jason you bring up some interesting points that I agree with

Nevertheless I thought this was the most emotional of all movies. There was like a 45 minute stretch where I was holding back tears. The battle of Hogwarts had a lot of weight to it . The destruction almost seemed "real" and about a place you cared for

Also I tough the Gringott's sequence was extremely well done. The dragon is probably one of the best CGI creatures I ever saw. And they succeeded making me feel sorry for it. You could feel the pain it had of all those years spent down there

[scallenger 483]

An interesting IMDB thread (and that means a lot !), discussing deleted scenes from the Potter films (with pics and videos):

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1201607/board/thread/186604150

Thanks for that! I thought I knew of almost all of the deleted scenes and there were MANY surprises for me in that thread! Very awesome, though VERY frustrating, all at once.

[gkgyver 1,645]

I finally saw the film the other night as well. For the first half, I wasn't with it at all. Was almost bored actually, something wasn't just clicking. The way the movie opens with like 10 straight minutes of dialogue was off-putting, the Gringott's Escape wasn't what it could have been, Alberforth's scene just felt awkward and like it wasn't adapted right, the initial scenes at Hogwart's seemed kinda off as well.

I know what you mean.

I think with the Aberforth scenes being what they are, the movie would have benefitted greatly if they just had not included Aberforth at all. It just adds another unfinished story, and creates more craving for a revealing Dumbledore backstory that never comes.

And I like your statement saying the Snape memory is the only time the film feels like someone thought about creating a cinematic event. Indeed.

I find it truly amazing that they split the damn book into two 2 hour films, and still Yates managed to make the major parts of them feel rushed, with new stuff popping up everywhere without explanation.

[Datameister 2,042]

Whoa, yeah, I totally forgot about the abandoned Dumbledore backstory stuff while watching the film. Kind of peculiar to have Aberforth there otherwise.

[gkgyver 1,645]

Hermione saying "You are Aberforth, Dumbledore's brother, aren't you?" is just another one of these "I don't know how they know that, I don't know who this guy is, where the hell he came from or why he wasn't there earlier, it is apparently meant to be important and dramatic, so I'll just pretend it makes sense in the book" moments.

Of which there are plenty.

[MSM 126]

Who would you have liked as alternative actors in the films? Please only serious suggestions...

Some of my picks:

Young Lily Evans:

Luna Lovegood (although Evanna Lynch was pretty perfect):

Albus Dumbledore:

(He has the ascendency, the height, the age, the eyes and the voice and would have been a perfect substitute for Richard Harris IMO, more even than Ian McKellen or Peter O'Toole)

Dolores Umbridge:

Fleur Delacoeur:

Rita Skeeter:

Igor Karkaroff:

[Once 605]

I prefer the British actors. Although I did imagine Dench when I read the book.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The thing is that Dench is better then anyone in looking stern.

Imelda Staunton had that friendly, but demeaning smile down 100% in a way I doubt Dench could have done.

[Once 605]

Staunton was different from the book, but did really great.

I'd probably put Christopher Lee in there somewhere though.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

how THAT's what I call a Defence Against the Dark Arts teacher!

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

I do not want to imagine any of those actors (save obviously Dame Judi and maaaaybe Streep) attempting accents.

[Once 605]

If they wanted to go over-the-top with the famous British actors I could see Jeremy Irons as Igor Karkaroff and Andrew Garfield as Bill Weasley.

[MSM 126]

If they wanted to go over-the-top with the famous British actors I could see Jeremy Irons as Igor Karkaroff and Andrew Garfield as Bill Weasley.

Christopher Lee could have made a good Karkaroff as well.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Waste of a great actor.

[Datameister 2,042]

Hermione saying "You are Aberforth, Dumbledore's brother, aren't you?" is just another one of these "I don't know how they know that, I don't know who this guy is, where the hell he came from or why he wasn't there earlier, it is apparently meant to be important and dramatic, so I'll just pretend it makes sense in the book" moments.

Of which there are plenty.

That was the most awkward moment in the film for me. Really stuck out as a WTF moment. Many of the moments you're talking about didn't really bother me that much in this film, but this one did not work.

[Jeff 10]

We see Hermione reading "The Life and Lies. . ." in Part 1, which is where she found out about Aberforth. I wish there had been time to delve into that backstory, but there simply wasn't time. I don't blame them for leaving it out.

[MSM 126]

Waste of a great actor.

Less a waste than AotC.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Or ROTS! "Let's kill him in the first act and continue with a wheezing robot"

[Once 605]

Waste of a great actor.

Much of Potter is waste of great actors... somehow they manage to shine in all of their 2-9 minutes every film.

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

I always wanted Maximilan Schell as Karkaroff.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

there are legitimate reasons to criticize the Potter films, but criticizing the slew of great British Actors is not one of them.

Considering how much screen time Karkaroff got in the film I cannot find a reason to nitpick it.

I watched the film again yesterday and it moved me more yesterday than on opening day. I paid particular attention to some of the moments that others chose to nitpick. I really watched the final duel. This film is like football. There is a speed to the film that it's hard to always keep up with.

I think Warner Brothers plans to push this film for Best Picture is a worthy battle. This is the best reviewed film of the year. It's not only a great finale, it's a great movie. It does ask the viewer to be aware, but so many films do.

[gkgyver 1,645]

We see Hermione reading "The Life and Lies. . ." in Part 1, which is where she found out about Aberforth. I wish there had been time to delve into that backstory, but there simply wasn't time. I don't blame them for leaving it out.

I don't blame them for leaving out Dumbledore's backstory. I blame them for making it sound pretty important and interesting in part 1 and make it look like a teaser for part 2, and then never picking up on it again.

That's just bad adapting.

And by the way, why would there be no time? Deathly Hallows, both parts, clock in at just under 2 hours, that's a whopping 15 minutes shorter than PoA for instance.

Plenty of time.

And I bet they could have gone the LOTR route and make it 3 hours, people would still enjoy it just the same.

Speaking of which, I really wonder why extended versions of the films aren't released. Nobody can convince me there is no material.

It doesn't have to be the whole package, you know, 50 additional minutes with newly recorded score.

I'd be pretty content with 5, 10 minutes of new scenes and tracked music.

I think Warner Brothers plans to push this film for Best Picture is a worthy battle. This is the best reviewed film of the year. It's not only a great finale, it's a great movie.

It's not going to happen.

And since it's not going to happen, I won't even argue with you in length why I think it's not a great film.

But there are way too many cheap shortcuts in the story, and the film is not even completely logical and coherent within the movie series, or indeed its part 1.

It does ask the viewer to be aware, but so many films do.

It doesn't ask the viewer to be aware, it asks the viewer to be oblivious to and careless about plot holes, of which some wouldn't even be plot holes if somebody had felt the necessity to explain them, and poor character presentation, implementation and development.

[King Mark 3,631]

I think Warner Brothers plans to push this film for Best Picture is a worthy battle. This is the best reviewed film of the year. It's not only a great finale, it's a great movie. It does ask the viewer to be aware, but so many films do.

For once I agree with you