Sandor 796 Posted October 18, 2010 Share Posted October 18, 2010 I've been wondering about this issue for quite some time, but haven't read anything conclusive about it. The Shire Theme (the opening melody that is) resembles the traditional Christian hymn 'This Is My Father's World'. Melody starts a few seconds in the song. Did Howard Shore INTENTIONALLY quote the hymn (perhaps knowing Tolkien was a devout Catholic) or is it pure coincidental? Does Doug Adams mention anything about this in his book? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,713 Posted October 18, 2010 Share Posted October 18, 2010 I do not think the similarity is intentional, perhaps unconscious but unintentional. The Hymn setting of the Shire theme is obviously rooted in the Western religious hymn tradition as Doug Adams says in his book but I do not think there is further connection. I do not deny the similarity but rather the intentionality. Certainly there is no acknowledged connetion from the composer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissPadmé 17 Posted October 18, 2010 Share Posted October 18, 2010 This is of course intentional, because in the songbook it is said Shore got it from, this song is song No. 111111, you get it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muad'Dib 1,801 Posted October 18, 2010 Share Posted October 18, 2010 Very interesting! It reminds of the situation between one of the themes from the animated "The Hobbit" and "Far and Away". They both start in the same direction, but then separate. It happens practically the same here.Any more LOTR influences? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,340 Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Very interesting! It reminds of the situation between one of the themes from the animated "The Hobbit" and "Far and Away". They both start in the same direction, but then separate. It happens practically the same here.Any more LOTR influences?What theme in The Hobbit?(sorry for digging up such an old post) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muad'Dib 1,801 Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 On 5/11/2011 at 9:48 PM, Faleel said: What theme in The Hobbit? (sorry for digging up such an old post) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,340 Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 and which cue in far and away? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrbellamy 6,272 Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Yeah, I hear it. Go to 47 seconds: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Oh my god! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,059 Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Hmm, I never noticed that and I had the LP of The Hobbit when I was a young lad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 I was surprised in my searches of the forum to find no discussion of Shore's direct quote of the popular Christian hymn "This Is My Father's World" (music written in 1915) for The Shire theme. I haven't followed coverage/discussion of these scores as closely as any one in this subforum so I wanted to ask if Shore ever talked about the connection? Was it a coincidence or did he quote it for a specific reason? If anyone is unaware of this, it's melody of the opening line of the hymn: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post BloodBoal 7,538 Posted August 17, 2016 Popular Post Share Posted August 17, 2016 No. The Shire theme was based on Whip Crackaway. Oh, and: Simon McBride, Disco Stu, mstrox and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 Damn. I tried like 3 different searches and didn't find that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 Obviously, you didn't try hard enough! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 It's because the search engine is neither use nor ornament. I don't think it's based on this hymn either; the opening similarity is a simple coincidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 It very likely is a coincidence. Seven identical notes, and both being the central melody of their pieces, is quite the coincidence though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Doug Adams 494 Posted August 17, 2016 Popular Post Share Posted August 17, 2016 I asked him. It's not based on it. Incanus, Jay, SafeUnderHill and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,314 Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 8 minutes ago, Doug Adams said: I asked him. It's not based on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 Good to know, thanks Doug! With his Jewish background it wasn't even an unconscious recall from childhood I guess! ;P Still, definitely a one in a million coincidence. Growing up, my dad was the organist at our church and the first thing he said leaving the theater after seeing FOTR was how much he liked the use of "This is My Father's World"! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,713 Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 This was discussed already back in 2002 or 2003. And now we have the definitive answer from Doug. Case closed. Bilbo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 I don't think of it as a case to be prosecuted. It's an interesting musical coincidence that is more than worth pointing out. A precisely duplicated melody, even not duplicated on purpose, must remain a permanent part of the historical analysis of these scores IMO, if that makes any sense. It's not something to be swept under the rug. Besides I was 15 in 2002 and not exactly following online film score discussions closely. EDIT: OK, here's an analogy I thought of. Imagine if the opening couple of measures of a new John Williams theme for a movie was an exact quote of the opening melody of "Hey Jude" by The Beatles. You could rationally know that Williams might not have done it on purpose, but it's all you'd be able to hear. For people who grew up going to certain types of Christian churches where "This is My Father's World" is a very popular and common hymn to sing on Sundays, that's what it's like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,314 Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 There's absolutely nothing wrong with old conversations happening again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstrox 6,647 Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 For what it's worth, it took me a long time to get past this similarity in 2001. Also, when I would listen to FOTR at home, my parents would note the similarity as well. I'm sure it's unintentional, but it is similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kühni 485 Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,713 Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 4 hours ago, mstrox said: For what it's worth, it took me a long time to get past this similarity in 2001. Also, when I would listen to FOTR at home, my parents would note the similarity as well. I'm sure it's unintentional, but it is similar. It's the same with some of Horner's melodies that unfortunately resemble some older Finnish pop tunes. As fond of borrowing he was, he wasn't that desperate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SafeUnderHill 205 Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,713 Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 2 minutes ago, SafeUnderHill said: I'd never heard of this piece until I saw it being pointed out in comparison to the Shire theme. It is unfortunate that that one melodic fragment is identical to one setting of the Shire theme. Why is it unfortunate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SafeUnderHill 205 Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 At this point, so many years later, it is always there in the back of my mind when I listen to the soundtracks or watch the movies, but it long ago stopped being a distraction. I think it helps that I vastly prefer where Shore takes that opening melody to where the hymn goes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,314 Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 3 minutes ago, SafeUnderHill said: Because it draws attention away from the music itself. People discuss why Shore used that melody, or whether it was intentional etc when at the end of the day it's a pure coincidence. Indeed SafeUnderHill 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstrox 6,647 Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 This thread has been bumped twice in six years, so I'm fairly certain the 13 other pages of analysis threads in this subforum didn't suffer too badly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SafeUnderHill 205 Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 Also, all you non-Methodists/Baptists/whatever who had never heard it before are heathens! Eternal damnation awaits! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,233 Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 This was never one of my favorite hymn tunes. Shore improved it, I say! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 Yup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,233 Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 The original post's rendition is syrupy anyway, but even in a stately (read: Anglo-Catholic) setting, something about the tune just doesn't really work for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrbellamy 6,272 Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 21 hours ago, Doug Adams said: I asked him. It's not based on it. Shore was also pretty blunt about it in his Reddit AMA https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2osjqp/this_is_composer_howard_shore_lets_talk_about/cmq616t?context=3#cmq5qb6 SafeUnderHill 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,314 Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 43 minutes ago, mrbellamy said: Shore was also pretty blunt about it in his Reddit AMA https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2osjqp/this_is_composer_howard_shore_lets_talk_about/cmq616t?context=3#cmq5qb6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,713 Posted August 19, 2016 Share Posted August 19, 2016 9 hours ago, mrbellamy said: Shore was also pretty blunt about it in his Reddit AMA https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2osjqp/this_is_composer_howard_shore_lets_talk_about/cmq616t?context=3#cmq5qb6 What else is there to say really? Short and sweet (or blunt). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstrox 6,647 Posted August 19, 2016 Share Posted August 19, 2016 I bet it's a particular question he gets a lot, and is p. tired of Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted August 19, 2016 Share Posted August 19, 2016 He should just get used to it, it's not going to stop coming up with new people. (Well, it probably will eventually stop coming up given the continued popularity of these movies and the declining popularity of attending church in the developed world) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gkgyver 1,645 Posted August 19, 2016 Share Posted August 19, 2016 If churches started playing cues from LotR on the organ, I'd definitely go more often. Or at all. Bilbo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,233 Posted August 19, 2016 Share Posted August 19, 2016 Come to Santa Monica for mass or vespers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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