Harry Potter And The Deathly Hallows Part 1 by Alexandre Desplat

[Ollie 1,059]

Now whether any director actually wants these themes in their film is another story...

Bingo!!!!

[crocodile 8,006]

The bottom line is, however, Desplat can't be blamed for that. The accusations of ignorance are silly.

Karol

[SF1_freeze 131]

My understanding always was: This is the same franchise, the rights to all the music belong to WB and so every composer working on the franchise is allowed to use whatever former theme they wanted

Why is critizism ever pointless, thats just a strange claim...

There is no problem with the filmtracks review, the only problem are people who don't want to accept that continuity in a franchise makes the difference between rather average ( bad continuity -> GoF, HbP, OotP and probably DHpt1) and great scores for the franchise Harry Potter ( good continuity ->PoA).

If they are heard without the connection to the franchise Harry Potter GoF and DHpt1 are very good scores, but they dissapoint as true Potter scores!!!

And if you don't like Clemmensons review/opinion then thats probably more your own feeling of dissapointment towards a score everyone wished to be a masterpiece but what turned out to be just a rather mediocre effort in the end. Clemmenson just wrote it down "in your face" rather than completely ignore the shortcomings and give 5 stars because it is Desplat...

[crocodile 8,006]

My understanding always was: This is the same franchise, the rights to all the music belong to WB and so every composer working on the franchise is allowed to use whatever former theme they wanted

That is an assumption, not a fact. And using that to accuse composer of ignorance is rather immature, you must agree. Otherwise I don't care for anybody's opinion on the score. Opinions are opinions and I haven't got an issue with these.

Karol

[SF1_freeze 131]

My understanding always was: This is the same franchise, the rights to all the music belong to WB and so every composer working on the franchise is allowed to use whatever former theme they wanted

That is an assumption, not a fact. And using that to accuse composer of ignorance is rather immature, you must agree. Otherwise I don't care for anybody's opinion on the score. Opinions are opinions and I haven't got an issue with these.

Karol

Why is it immature to express critizism and draw a conclusion? You just have to conclude even if you are non biased that for an 8 movie franchise, the behaviour to scrap the complete thematic approach and almost all the continuity is an ignorant behaviour whoevers fault it was(maybe Heyman's, maybe Desplat's, probably Yates)! That are just the facts nothing more and nothing less.

[crocodile 8,006]

My understanding always was: This is the same franchise, the rights to all the music belong to WB and so every composer working on the franchise is allowed to use whatever former theme they wanted

That is an assumption, not a fact. And using that to accuse composer of ignorance is rather immature, you must agree. Otherwise I don't care for anybody's opinion on the score. Opinions are opinions and I haven't got an issue with these.

Karol

Why is it immature to express critizism and draw a conclusion? You just have to conclude even if you are non biased that for an 8 movie franchise, the behaviour to scrap the complete thematic approach and almost all the continuity is an ignorant behaviour whoevers fault it was(maybe Heyman's, maybe Desplat's, probably Yates)! That are just the facts nothing more and nothing less.

You obviosuly don't get it. I'm not debating whether they should (or shouldn't) use JW's themes and or how you feel about the finished product. You opinion is valid, of course. As is anybody else's.

In his initial comments about the score Clemmensen wrote: "I just wish that these sequel composers wouldn't act like dogs pissing on a fire hydrant." Which implies they chose not to use JW's themes by themselves. This is NOT a fact. Desplat himself stated he wanted to use Hedwig's theme "wherever he can". It's possible he wrote tons of material using it and then it was then tossed.

Is it clear now?

Karol

[Wojo 2,453]

But there is no complete thematic approach to the film franchise. John Williams wrote themes that he used for three movies. Three-eighths are less than one-half, meaning that regardless of being "first" or "best," Williams' approach is now the minority.

Maybe the producers and directors recognized that a half-assed attempt to copy and paste Williams' established themes verbatim would still have drawn the ire of fans who didn't want a copy and paste job, and decided to just go their own way with the music.

Besides, who here has heard the complete score in the film beyond what we heard from the soundtrack album? I would laugh myself stupid if the movie is wall-to-wall Hedwig's Theme in the moments we don't hear on album.

[Richard Penna 3,686]

Now whether any director actually wants these themes in their film is another story...

Bingo!!!!

Hit the nail on the head. The composer writes what the director wants. I think directors/ producers are much more responsible for what we perceive as lazy scoring than we think.

I mean look at how many alternate cues some scores have, and how minor the differences can be. Takes a director/producer who's seriously in touch with the score, down to the last note. In fact there's a whole section on the 'making-of' part of the Signs DVD where JNH explains how hard it was to write The Hand of Fate so M.Night's approval.

I think that if Yates wanted Williams' themes used more, he would've asked Desplat to do it. Maybe Bryan Singer asked Ottman to make those chord changes in the SR love theme which many around here find barbaric.

The notion that these composers aren't capable is rubbish IMO.

[crocodile 8,006]

Now whether any director actually wants these themes in their film is another story...

Bingo!!!!

Hit the nail on the head. The composer writes what the director wants. I think directors/ producers are much more responsible for what we perceive as lazy scoring than we think.

I mean look at how many alternate cues some scores have, and how minor the differences can be. Takes a director/producer who's seriously in touch with the score, down to the last note. In fact there's a whole section on the 'making-of' part of the Signs DVD where JNH explains how hard it was to write The Hand of Fate so M.Night's approval.

I think that if Yates wanted Williams' themes used more, he would've asked Desplat to do it. Maybe Bryan Singer asked Ottman to make those chord changes in the SR love theme which many around here find barbaric.

Yes! Speaking of which, it is just as possible that so-called "lazy JW's re-using" of old material in KOTCS was a direct effect of that kind of control from the movie's director and producer. Why? Because usually when JW is using direct passages from older scores that's because there is a need for quick rewrite or no time to write new material, for whatever reason. It happened before. Who knows? Maybe there are alternates somewhere for these bits.

Karol

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[ChrisAfonso 186]

There is no problem with the filmtracks review, the only problem are people who don't want to accept that continuity in a franchise makes the difference between rather average ( bad continuity -> GoF, HbP, OotP and probably DHpt1) and great scores for the franchise Harry Potter ( good continuity ->PoA).

If they are heard without the connection to the franchise Harry Potter GoF and DHpt1 are very good scores, but they dissapoint as true Potter scores!!!

Sorry, but I think this "rule" for "great scores for a franchise" is just silly. Would PoA be a bad score for the franchise if it was the same, just with the one transitionary Hedwig's theme in the middle removed (or even its B part - come on, that's only 1/4 of new notes compared to the A part, the second half is nearly identical)? GoF, OotP, and DH1 have several statements of Hedwig's theme within the film (HBP less so, as far as I recall), GoF and OotP even a comparatively rousing one (with timpani and all) on CD, so I think this point is moot here: In the usage of the main theme, those movies's difference to PoA is a gradual, not a qualitative one.

So how does the rest of the scores hold up?

-PoA gave us some some new themes (Window to the Past, Double Trouble) and motifs (Sirius, Wormtail) that are heard frequently in the film, and some setpieces that are basically just for one scene (Aunt Marge, Knight Bus, Buckbeak's Flight (with a short reprise at the end, as it's a very similar scene), Quidditch).

-GoF had the new Harry theme, new motifs for Voldemort and the Goblet, all appearing frequently; and a row of setpieces for different scenes (Quidditch WC, the tasks to varying degree, the Yule ball waltzes, the Hogwarts March)

-OotP had the Umbridge theme and possession theme/motif (I think the line is blurry here) and several action or montage setpieces (the flight of the order, Room of Requirement, Fireworks)

-HBP continued to use the possession theme (to a grand a dramatic buildup in the last part of the film), had a sorrowful theme for Dumbledore, one for Malfoy's struggle, a light romantic motif, he even adapted Williams's "Quidditch, Third Year" motif for several action sequences, and a very chilling and melancholic theme for the memories of Harry's mother in the later Slughorn scenes; also some fun setpieces (e.g. Wizard's wheezes, Living Death)

-DH1 has the main theme (which alone is greatly developed into some very emotional material later on), the Voldemort/Death Eater motifs, the Harry's allies/OotP theme, all recurring frequently, motifs/themes for Dobby, the Locket, Dumbledore, and the Hallows, that pop up in several places, and setpieces like Sky Battle, The Ministry of Magic, Xeno Lovegood...

It comes down to how much you appreciate the themes and motifs that each film introduces, the flow of underscore and setpieces, and the "Potter-ness" of the character and instrumentation of the music. In this regard I can say that for me, DH1 and OotP have very Potterish sound, HBP slightly less, and GoF more of a different style. Desplat shows the most Williams-ish orchestrations and several compository Williams like gestures (especially in the action music), Doyle has his distinctive refined style that overdoes the bombast and sappiness in parts, and Hooper gets the magic right but struggles with employing the whole orchestra in an engaging way, making much of his scores relatively sparse-sounding. None really reaches the wealth of Williams's themes for the first three films, but then I must add that some of Williams's themes are a bit on the cartoony side.

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

I imagine Desplat will bring some older themes for the finale. The epilogue could work wonderfully with something among the lines of "Reunion of Friends", maybe adding "A Window to the Past" and Desplat's own friendship theme to the mix.

[ChrisAfonso 186]

Of course it would be great if Desplat would employ "A Window to the past" in the Resurrection Stone scene

[SF1_freeze 131]

There is no problem with the filmtracks review, the only problem are people who don't want to accept that continuity in a franchise makes the difference between rather average ( bad continuity -> GoF, HbP, OotP and probably DHpt1) and great scores for the franchise Harry Potter ( good continuity ->PoA).

If they are heard without the connection to the franchise Harry Potter GoF and DHpt1 are very good scores, but they dissapoint as true Potter scores!!!

Sorry, but I think this "rule" for "great scores for a franchise" is just silly. Would PoA be a bad score for the franchise if it was the same, just with the one transitionary Hedwig's theme in the middle removed (or even its B part - come on, that's only 1/4 of new notes compared to the A part, the second half is nearly identical)? GoF, OotP, and DH1 have several statements of Hedwig's theme within the film (HBP less so, as far as I recall), GoF and OotP even a comparatively rousing one (with timpani and all) on CD, so I think this point is moot here: In the usage of the main theme, those movies's difference to PoA is a gradual, not a qualitative one.

So how does the rest of the scores hold up?

-PoA gave us some some new themes (Window to the Past, Double Trouble) and motifs (Sirius, Wormtail) that are heard frequently in the film, and some setpieces that are basically just for one scene (Aunt Marge, Knight Bus, Buckbeak's Flight (with a short reprise at the end, as it's a very similar scene), Quidditch).

-GoF had the new Harry theme, new motifs for Voldemort and the Goblet, all appearing frequently; and a row of setpieces for different scenes (Quidditch WC, the tasks to varying degree, the Yule ball waltzes, the Hogwarts March)

-OotP had the Umbridge theme and possession theme/motif (I think the line is blurry here) and several action or montage setpieces (the flight of the order, Room of Requirement, Fireworks)

-HBP continued to use the possession theme (to a grand a dramatic buildup in the last part of the film), had a sorrowful theme for Dumbledore, one for Malfoy's struggle, a light romantic motif, he even adapted Williams's "Quidditch, Third Year" motif for several action sequences, and a very chilling and melancholic theme for the memories of Harry's mother in the later Slughorn scenes; also some fun setpieces (e.g. Wizard's wheezes, Living Death)

-DH1 has the main theme (which alone is greatly developed into some very emotional material later on), the Voldemort/Death Eater motifs, the Harry's allies/OotP theme, all recurring frequently, motifs/themes for Dobby, the Locket, Dumbledore, and the Hallows, that pop up in several places, and setpieces like Sky Battle, The Ministry of Magic, Xeno Lovegood...

It comes down to how much you appreciate the themes and motifs that each film introduces, the flow of underscore and setpieces, and the "Potter-ness" of the character and instrumentation of the music. In this regard I can say that for me, DH1 and OotP have very Potterish sound, HBP slightly less, and GoF more of a different style. Desplat shows the most Williams-ish orchestrations and several compository Williams like gestures (especially in the action music), Doyle has his distinctive refined style that overdoes the bombast and sappiness in parts, and Hooper gets the magic right but struggles with employing the whole orchestra in an engaging way, making much of his scores relatively sparse-sounding. None really reaches the wealth of Williams's themes for the first three films, but then I must add that some of Williams's themes are a bit on the cartoony side.

You are right there are dozens of other facettes which make the difference, i repeated just the continuity problems...read the other ones in my other posts if you care

PoA solved that good, all others really bad

[ChrisAfonso 186]

And that's the point where we disagree, I think the continuity the sequels isn't really that much worse

To summarize the point I was trying to make: If you think PoA is better than its sequels (I would agree to that), it's not because of thematic continuity mostly, but for other reasons.

[Datameister 2,042]

Exactly. Just because it was written by the same composer and it contains a few brief statements of existing themes does not mean it had strong continuity. It's a fundamentally different score - if not for those few moments when existing themes make cameo appearances, it might as well be from a completely different franchise. Which is appropriate to the film, because it's so stylistically different from its predecessors. The reason the score is good isn't because it's consistent with what came before it - it's actually good in spite of the fact that it's not.

[crocodile 8,006]

I remember first hearing POA. At first I thought it's a wrong CD, because it was so different. But, despite the fact most of the material was completely new, I liked it very much. Mostly because it seemed so fresh. Don't get me wrong, I like PS and CS but they were grounded in the Williams' style from the early 90's. This, on the other hand, was something new. Maybe less obvious, but certainly energetic and exciting. Williams suddenly seemed younger, which I couldn't say from hearing his output from 2000-2002.

Karol

[King Mark 3,631]

10 pages later, I still find this score has no personality whatsoever.

Good example is the second to last Track , Farewell to Dobby with generic sad strings. Nothing interesting going on musically .Like Doyle's Another Years End and Hooper's Loved Ones and Leaving

Should have been called, Another Boring Finale Track

[joelparnis 0]

Except 'Farewell to Dobby' has some actual emotion in the track. I love this track, it is the culmination of several musical ideas that Desplat uses throughout the rest of score, this track is the emotional and musical resolution of a lot of those motifs. It worked well for me. And i don't think i'm alone on this.

[SF1_freeze 131]

10 pages later, I still find this score has no personality whatsoever.

Good example is the second to last Track , Farewell to Dobby with generic sad strings. Nothing interesting going on musically .Like Doyle's Another Years End and Hooper's Loved Ones and Leaving

Should have been called, Another Boring Finale Track

Without any memorable music you just have to lack personality... boring album with very good underscore but unmemorable, subtle developed motific ideas (these are no themes for me, sorry)

Now i just wait for the movie and expect to be dissapointed even more by the blown musical opportunities

[Charlie Brigden 7]

10 pages later, I still find this score has no personality whatsoever.

Good example is the second to last Track , Farewell to Dobby with generic sad strings. Nothing interesting going on musically .Like Doyle's Another Years End and Hooper's Loved Ones and Leaving

Should have been called, Another Boring Finale Track

Without any memorable music you just have to lack personality... boring album with very good underscore but unmemorable, subtle developed motific ideas (these are no themes for me, sorry)

Now i just wait for the movie and expect to be dissapointed even more by the blown musical opportunities

Just take an ipod with the previous JW scores on into the cinema.

[SF1_freeze 131]

Wouldnt make much sense, wouldnt it... then i could not hear the dialogue and the sound effects... other than that -> apple sucks

[Charlie Brigden 7]

Wouldnt make much sense, wouldnt it... then i could not hear the dialogue and the sound effects... other than that -> apple sucks

But it would save you the inevitable further disappointment and us having to hear about it.

[SF1_freeze 131]

Wouldnt make much sense, wouldnt it... then i could not hear the dialogue and the sound effects... other than that -> apple sucks

But it would save you the inevitable further disappointment and us having to hear about it.

Not really, i would have to cope with the goddamn ipod and that would be more dissapointing than you could imagine. They arent as good as many believe and just limit you in a lot of aspects...

[David Coscina 3]

I think he was just trying to illustrate a point.

[Matt C 452]

I've watched part of the Malfoy Manor scene... Desplat's score really fits the visuals and tone. It's going to work fine in the film.

[Jeff 10]

I've watched part of the Malfoy Manor scene... Desplat's score really fits the visuals and tone. It's going to work fine in the film.

I was thinking the same thing as I watched the clip. On its own, that cue didn't really seem interesting, but it blends perfectly with the film.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

The Polyjuice Potion scene worked nicely with his music too. Looking forward to seeing how it all fits. I haven't listened to a score before seeing the film since Prisoner of Azkaban. It's not something I generally like doing, as it can distract me on first viewing if I'm already familiar with it.

[scallenger 483]

Interview with Desplat:

http://www.aintitcool.com/node/47375

This interview apparently took place about a week ago... and Desplat still doesn't know if he will be doing Part 2 or not... very interesting...

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

It's not unclear. It's been confirmed on the official HP website. Desplat's returning.

[scallenger 483]

But mistakes can be made on blurbs for even official sites. They still haven't directly confirmed it. I'm not trying to get hopes up for Williams again, but if just a week ago Desplat still didn't even know he was doing it or not... who knows?

SK: Are you scoring DEATHLY HOLLOWS, PART 2? Have you been asked?

AD: There’s a rumor that I would write it, yes. That’s the rumor…

SK: So it’s not official yet?

AD: I think you’ve heard the rumor too.

[both Laugh]

AD: With rumors, you never know. There was a rumor that John Williams will finish it.

He could just be toying with us, though. But it was still odd for him to say it like that. I mean it would have been better for him to reveal than some random blurb on the official site in an "about" section.

[MissPadmé 17]

In the official production notes it says that DESPLAT is working on/or begins work for HP 7 Part 2...

[Incanus 5,714]

A nice interview. What I found a bit funny is how Doyle and Hooper were hardly mentioned. Desplat obviously looks up to Williams as the composer of the series or decided not to comment on the work of the other two gentlemen for some other reason. And his comments pretty much establish that he was going for a new sound, yet again, for the end of the series and funnily we fans were hearing Hedwig's theme more on the album than he admits of using it.

[Hlao-roo 389]

I still wonder what early Doyle (the man who rattled off a string of powerhouse scores in Henry V, Dead Again, Indochine, Into the West, Much Ado About Nothing, Needful Things, and A Little Princess a few years later) could've brought to Harry Potter.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

I would take the official Warner Bros page with a grain of salt unless there's an official press release.

Left hand doesn't know what the right is doing.

[scallenger 483]

Exactly. The fact that WB still hasn't issued official confirmation to the fansites who always try and do so is what gives me pause that the site might be wrong. Especially after this very recent interview. But he probably will end up doing it. But who knows? What was that movie, Stepmom? The one Williams suddenly just took over? Haha.

[Ollie 1,059]

Well I wouldn't expect any news until sometime after Christmas, since the second film is not due until July 2011. I would imagine the scoring sessions will take place around Feb, March or April.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

But mistakes can be made on blurbs for even official sites. They still haven't directly confirmed it. I'm not trying to get hopes up for Williams again, but if just a week ago Desplat still didn't even know he was doing it or not... who knows?

SK: Are you scoring DEATHLY HOLLOWS, PART 2? Have you been asked?

AD: There’s a rumor that I would write it, yes. That’s the rumor…

SK: So it’s not official yet?

AD: I think you’ve heard the rumor too.

[both Laugh]

AD: With rumors, you never know. There was a rumor that John Williams will finish it.

He could just be toying with us, though. But it was still odd for him to say it like that. I mean it would have been better for him to reveal than some random blurb on the official site in an "about" section.

toying with us would be nasty...

maybe he asked williams to compose one or two themes for the finale? or maybe the final saga end credits or something...

I mean he could be hinting that Williams is involved somehow in the project?

[gkgyver 1,645]

What I still don't get is why those all for Desplat's approach suddenly claim that continuity is pointless and futile, just because Williams supposedly blew continuity in Prisoner Of Azkaban, which he actually never did.

What if Don Davis hadn't used the Williams themes for Jurassic Park 3?

Or what if Conti or Hamlish or Martin or Kamen hadn't used the Bond theme for their entries in the series? There is little doubt that Live And Let Die, For Your Eyes Only and License To Kill are vastly different in tone, and yet there is also little doubt that omitting the Bond elements would have been a bad move. All those films still have the same James Bond theme, and some generally Bondian elements, with the touch of the individual composer. Was that so freaking hard to realise on the Harry Potter series?

Moreover, are the scores by Martin, Kamen etc less memorable or unique because they dared to use elements of John Barry? No!

I would even go as far and say that they became more than what they could have been without.

As it has been pointed out before, scrapping continuity halfway through a 8 movie franchise is bad bad judgement on whoever's part.

[Wojo 2,453]

What I still don't get is why those all for Desplat's approach suddenly claim that continuity is pointless and futile, just because Williams supposedly blew continuity in Prisoner Of Azkaban, which he actually never did.

What if Don Davis hadn't used the Williams themes for Jurassic Park 3?

Don Davis ignored the themes Williams created for Isla Sorna, the setting of Jurassic Park 3, specifically the fantastic jungle trekking music. So right there Don Davis dropped the ball.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

They should have got Arnold to do it, he plastered the theme all over in Casino Ro-oh wait. No, they should have got Giacchino to do it, he played the Star Trek theme every fiv-doh. No, they should have got John Williams, he used the Raiders march tons of times in KOT-no, that doesn't work either.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

What I still don't get is why those all for Desplat's approach suddenly claim that continuity is pointless and futile, just because Williams supposedly blew continuity in Prisoner Of Azkaban, which he actually never did.

What if Don Davis hadn't used the Williams themes for Jurassic Park 3?

Don Davis ignored the themes Williams created for Isla Sorna, the setting of Jurassic Park 3, specifically the fantastic jungle trekking music. So right there Don Davis dropped the ball.

he used ludlow's demise and when they first see the lab, some 'TLWish' music is used.

Creating the mercenary theme out of the finale of journey to the island is genius.

[crocodile 8,006]

Actually Williams' music is referenced everywhere. Even the choral bits from the egg scene.

Karol

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Actually Williams' music is referenced everywhere. Even the choral bits from the egg scene.

Karol

yeah but that is from Jurassic park. He said that no tlw music was used.

davis did some great things with williams music anyway.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

I generally found Davis' score to sound like JW muzak, at least with the obvious themes. The river scene and the intro to the island are just cheese to the max, and terrible obvious attempts to mimic the original film.

[crocodile 8,006]

The whole film is like this and Davis himself said it is pretty dumb anyways.

Karol

[Ollie 1,059]

Don Davis did what he was told to do. The powers that be wanted Williams' themes from the first film, not TLW. Due to editing in the film he had to make some adjustments with the music and remove a few bars of the Island theme.

I think Davis' action music for JPIII is outstanding, however some of his takes on Williams' themes are awful, the ending especially with the militaristic versions. And I think his family theme borders on cheesiness at times.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Agreed. Cheese levels reach critical with that one. Between the treatment of the JP main theme and the new family theme it's a one-way ticket to toilet town for me.

The action and suspense music is great though I reckon.

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

There's something weird with his End Credits from JPIII. When the trumpet plays, he changes a note and it sounds really strange. But then the horn plays it normally, so... What the hell??

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Oh for fuck's sake, get over yourselves people.

The score is done and locked to picture, and it works marvelously well in it. Bitching about it is not going to change a damn thing now.