Intrada's First Blood

[publicist 4,643]

There;s a few Goldsmith scores I can't stand except for a few cues (Like The Mutant in Total Recall)

Capricorn 1

Outland

Total Recall

the Rambo scores

We'll just add a flowery string line and a playful bassoon on top. You will like them well enough then.

[King Mark 3,631]

Well that's why I'm more of a fan of Williams action scoring in the first place . I like a lot of Goldsmith but if he was my #1 I'd be posting more at the JG message board or FSM

[steb74 53]

We'll just add a flowery string line and a playful bassoon on top. You will like them well enough then.

Awwww .....don't cry now, come on.

There, there shhhhh ......rock-a-bye-fanboy .......

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

It's over, Johnny!

[King Mark 3,631]

Well actually I don't like when Williams takes the too loud, aggressive approach either .Chase through Coruscant, Minority Report..

[publicist 4,643]

Well actually I don't like when Williams takes the too loud, aggressive approach either .Chase through Coruscant, Minority Report..

The only composer whose action music i endorse wholeheartedly is Goldsmith. All others (Williams included) have their moments in the sun, but this kind of stuff is a tricky business with lots of unlistenable pratfalls and i can stomach it less and less with age progressing.

I listen to Williams for other qualities, namely melodic inspiration, delicate orchestration, grand musical gestures...just my little justification for being here in case you still accuse people of trolling because they don't have RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK on auto-repeat.

[Quintus 5,399]

Goldsmith's action writing is phenomenal, but as a musical sound it's not as unique as it's made out to be - much of his style reminds me of Leonard Bernstein, especially where the use of brass and percussion is concerned. Bernstein loved ladling on that reverb, too.

Williams on the other hand is about as unique a sound as you're going to get, in an orchestral film score, especially where his superior action writing is concerned.

[publicist 4,643]

Williams on the other hand is about as unique a sound as you're going to get, in an orchestral film score, especially where his superior action writing is concerned.

Sorry Robert, but that's pure rubbish. Williams action music much more clearly recalls the models on which it is based, i. e. unfiltered Strawinsky, Prokoviev et al. At least i'm hard-pressed to think of any Williams music in that department which has the unmistakeable stamp of PLANET OF THE APES, 100 RIFLES, THE OMEN, WIND AND THE LION, FIRST BLOOD, CAPRICORN ONE or even newer stuff like U. S. MARSHALS. You could never take them for anything but Goldsmith.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

That is true actually.

[King Mark 3,631]

The only composer whose action music i endorse wholeheartedly is Goldsmith. All others (Williams included) have their moments in the sun, but this kind of stuff is a tricky business with lots of unlistenable pratfalls and i can stomach it less and less with age progressing.

yeah whatever

[publicist 4,643]

The only composer whose action music i endorse wholeheartedly is Goldsmith. All others (Williams included) have their moments in the sun, but this kind of stuff is a tricky business with lots of unlistenable pratfalls and i can stomach it less and less with age progressing.

yeah whatever

For christmas, i promise you a whole thread full of fan masturbation. Like what FSM once did when they gave every new release four stars.

[Quintus 5,399]

Williams on the other hand is about as unique a sound as you're going to get, in an orchestral film score, especially where his superior action writing is concerned.

Sorry Robert, but that's pure rubbish. Williams action music much more clearly recalls the models on which it is based, i. e. unfiltered Strawinsky, Prokoviev et al. At least i'm hard-pressed to think of any Williams music in that department which has the unmistakeable stamp of PLANET OF THE APES, 100 RIFLES, THE OMEN, WIND AND THE LION, FIRST BLOOD, CAPRICORN ONE or even newer stuff like U. S. MARSHALS. You could never take them for anything but Goldsmith.

Sigh, are you suggesting that I'm suggesting that the Williams sound isn't influenced by the likes of Stravinsky et al? Because if you are you have completely missed my point. Oh and get off your high horse before replying to me because you sound like pretentious internet twat.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Ahem.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

"Regarding my comments made earlier this evening,I wish to apologise unreservedly to Mr Publicist for my profoundly ill thought out comments which I now see were deeply offensive and hurtful and should never have been uttered either in public or private. It pains me deeply that Mr Publicist, who has worked so hard for so many years for the good of this forum and the wider community, has had to endure the suffering that my irresponsible comments brought. For this day's work I shall contemplate my astonishing abuse of the freedom to speak, on the tree of woe (awaiting a good pecking by a vulture). Furthermore, next time I shall think of the children. Yours with head hung low...Quint"

[publicist 4,643]

Sigh, are you suggesting that I'm suggesting that the Williams sound isn't influenced by the likes of Stravinsky et al? Because if you are you have completely missed my point. Oh and get off your high horse before replying to me because you sound like pretentious internet twat.

No i haven't. You just wrote bullshit. And I AM a pretentious internet twat...so sod off.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

"Regarding my comments made earlier this evening,I wish to apologise unreservedly to Mr Quint for my profoundly ill thought out comments which I now see were deeply offensive and hurtful and should never have been uttered either in public or private. It pains me deeply that Mr Quint, who has worked so hard for so many years for the good of this forum and the wider community, has had to endure the suffering that my irresponsible comments brought. For this day's work I shall contemplate my astonishing abuse of the freedom to speak, on the tree of woe (awaiting a good pecking by a vulture). Furthermore, next time I shall think of the children. Yours with head hung low...Publicist"

[Incanus 5,714]

Blessed indeed are the peacemakers.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Cheesemakers?

[Incanus 5,714]

Whoah! Let's not go that far.

[David Coscina 3]

I don't think Williams is purely drawing from the Russians for his action music and I love cues like Sonic Greeting from Superman or Truck Chase from Raiders. I think the compositional approach of Williams and Goldsmith differs and that's why we hear differences in their sound. Williams thinks much more vertically in terms of harmony probably thanks to his jazz background where that is emphasized. Goldsmith by his own admission thought more linearly and that allowed him to write streamlined yet rhythmically complex music where the phrasing emphasized the time signatures. In a lot of Williams' work I'm not even cognizant of meter because of his skill at melodic/harmonic motion compounded with his complex counterpoint.

The two areas I always found Goldsmith to he more adept at were modern writing (atonalism, dissonance) and his sense of driving rhythmic figures in his music. To me, I'm glad both were around because I liked the contrast in their styles.

[Quintus 5,399]

Sigh, are you suggesting that I'm suggesting that the Williams sound isn't influenced by the likes of Stravinsky et al? Because if you are you have completely missed my point. Oh and get off your high horse before replying to me because you sound like pretentious internet twat.

No i haven't. You just wrote bullshit. And I AM a pretentious internet twat...so sod off.

Fail reply fails.

Joking aside, take the pretentious part and the internet out of the equation and what are you left with? If you reckon you're still proud then congratulations with that. Well done.

[publicist 4,643]

Joking aside, take the pretentious part and the internet out of the equation and what are you left with? If you reckon you're still proud then congratulations with that. Well done.

What are u talking about? You are hardly the most eloquent poster here, so stop acting like some sissy moderator...

[Quintus 5,399]

It is true, then. You really are.

[publicist 4,643]

It is true, then. You really are.

Who knows? To whom does it matter?

[Quintus 5,399]

Hehe

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Guy love is about to break off here.

[Quintus 5,399]

I think you're a prick for saying that.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Did you think that while sharing Spaghetti with publicist, Lady and the Tramp style?

[Naïve Old Fart 9,528]

Cheesemakers?

Obviously, not just cheesemakers; it refers to any manufacturer of dairy products (one more peep out of you, and I'll take you to the f***ing cleaners!).

[Quintus 5,399]

Did you think that while sharing Spaghetti with publicist, Lady and the Tramp style?

C'mon Blum, you ain't nuthin here if you ain't up on daft JWFan in-jokes.

[STORM 1]

Spose it all boils down to personal taste,about who`s action music is best!for me its williams !goldsmith!broughton!horner!elmer bernstein!bill conti!certainly not zimmer ever!.Back to first blood,excellent action score,like wise rambo 2 and 3

[lonzoe 18]

I love First Blood in all, but I purchased the Varese album two years ago. And am happy with it. I believe that album is still in print at SAE. Plus I've doubled-dipped enough this year. So I'll have to pass.

Oh and Happy 25th to Intrada.

[Wojo 2,453]

Since my Varese First Blood is still in shrink wrap, I should be able to sell it as new. Though I paid $13.95 at SAE so it didn't break el banco.

[Thor 7,504]

Great score, one of Goldsmith's best, but I'm content with my Varese.

[lonzoe 18]

Just to clarify that Zimmer's power anthems are loud, not ballsy. I would love someone to point me to any example throughout Zimmer's entire career where he matches the intensity and kinetic rawness of the following Goldsmith awesomeness:

"opening credits" Finale Conflict- basically the finest culmination of ideas from the entire series. The opening horn statement is so ominous and bold it makes mere mortals shiver in their boots

"New Friend" from Papillon- the use of dissonance in the trumpets (semi tone clusters and fluttertongue at the same time) not only sets off this cue on an astringent, gutsy course but amplifies the urgency of the scene. Note that some of the motivic and passages in this cue also appear earlier in the score where Goldsmith underscores the grizzly execution of a young inmate with the same two-tiered effect.

any part of Alien- sorry, Zimmer and shit, most current film composers for that matter, will never write like this, nor do I believe they have the skill to do so. Snobby of me? Hell yes. Correct? Probably (although I will submit that Giacchino's Let Me in has some pretty damn close moments)

The Edge- any cue with Bart the Bear in it- this was during Goldsmith's more streamlined era but he still managed to get a lot of mileage out of those downward glides from the trombone section along with some terrific writing for auxiliary percussion

Total Recall- sorry but nowhere near a Hart to Hart score and the mere suggestion of this worries me about the listening tastes of some on this forum. :cool:

Planet of the Apes- there's some meaty writing in this and Elfman, who I do admire, never even got close to this brilliance. Not even.

Wind and the Lion- Another colossal theme from a colossal score. Alternating 5ths in the horns is pure power. It also serves to introduce a seed of the main theme by extrapolating the first and strongest interval within the theme

Okay, this could go on ad infinitum

I always thought Elfman's POTA score rivalled Goldsmith's POTA. Elfman's POTA made me a bigger fan of Elfman's. Plus that was one of Elfman's best scores from that decade. The density and texture of Elfman's POTA is just as complex and clever as Goldsmith's, imo. He didn't let the pressure of Goldsmith's score shake him . He was up to the task. And he delivered the goods, imo.

[Jay 37,364]

FYI:

There are NO defects and no skips and no frames missing and whatnot. At the 1:39 point in "The Razor" on disc one, you'll here an extra electric guitar/synth hit, as recorded for the actual film take. It's a performer jumping the beat by one eighth-note during the mixed meter 5/8 percussion section and we've kept this take intact. That was our intent. In any case, Goldsmith actually edited between two separate takes for his album track back in '82, starting with the film take, then editing to an earlier unused take simply for his album - and our second CD reflects this album version. To be more detailed, he actually edited out the offending bar of music but replaced it with several repeated bars to actually lengthen the album version by two seconds, making the section more symmetrical since he no longer had to time the music literally to frames of film. I even noted the word [edit] in the album assembly information for that particular cue. Basically, I was incredibly thorough (some may say incredibly anal) about making this project as authentic and thorough as possible.

From http://www.intrada.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3844

[Ollie 1,059]

Ahh yes the run to the masses instead of contacting the label strikes again.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Stefancos is gonna love this one. To me, there are many many compelling reasons why I find First Blood by Jerry Goldsmith to be as good as the best of anything Williams has ever written. In some ways, I prefer it to almost any action writing from Williams' canon (make no mistake though- Williams is my favorite film composer of all time!). I think the quality I find so omnipresent in Goldsmith's action writing that is slightly elusive in Williams' is that raw, almost savage tenor. Williams' action scores can be muscular but there's always a sense of refinement to them and perhaps a little dressiness. I think part of this relates to the personality of a composer. Williams is a very quiet natured, even tempered individual based on all the interviews I've seen and having met him once in Pittsburgh. Goldsmith had an irascible, even mean temperament at times and I think it shows in his music. Also, his influences were more heavily centered in modernism which eschewed prettiness for orchestral violence on more than one occasion (Varese's Arcana is possibly one of the most violent pieces you can hear- or Bartok's Miraculous Mandarin).

I don't think it's fair to conclude that Williams is incapable of writing tense, atonal action and suspense cues, or that the stylistic difference between Williams and Goldsmith is as big as the disparity between Prokofiev and Stravinsky.

Tracks such as Death's Door / The Upturned Galley (both strongly recall Leonard Rosenman)and Saving Robin from The Poseidon Adventure; Roy's First Encounter, Barry's Kidnapping, Climbing the Mountain, Outstretch Hands, Lightshow, Barnstorming and The Mothership from Close Encounters; Visitations, The Killing of Marcel, Reflections, and Nightwatch Rise from Images; The Idol Temple, The Well Of The Souls from ROTLC,Short Round Escapes from TOD; Wrong Choice from TLC; Grave Robbers, Ants!, and Temple Ruins and the Secret Revealed from KOTKC; Preparing to Meet the Monster, Into the Kitchen, March Past the Kitchen Utensils from Jurassic Park; The Compies Dine from The Lost Word; Spyders and Psychic Truth from Minority Report - prove otherwise.

They might not be as primal, rhythmic, or maniacal as Jerry Goldsmith's modernist action cues, but still notable in their own right.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Just to clarify that Zimmer's power anthems are loud, not ballsy. I would love someone to point me to any example throughout Zimmer's entire career where he matches the intensity and kinetic rawness of the following Goldsmith awesomeness:

"opening credits" Finale Conflict- basically the finest culmination of ideas from the entire series. The opening horn statement is so ominous and bold it makes mere mortals shiver in their boots

"New Friend" from Papillon- the use of dissonance in the trumpets (semi tone clusters and fluttertongue at the same time) not only sets off this cue on an astringent, gutsy course but amplifies the urgency of the scene. Note that some of the motivic and passages in this cue also appear earlier in the score where Goldsmith underscores the grizzly execution of a young inmate with the same two-tiered effect.

any part of Alien- sorry, Zimmer and shit, most current film composers for that matter, will never write like this, nor do I believe they have the skill to do so. Snobby of me? Hell yes. Correct? Probably (although I will submit that Giacchino's Let Me in has some pretty damn close moments)

The Edge- any cue with Bart the Bear in it- this was during Goldsmith's more streamlined era but he still managed to get a lot of mileage out of those downward glides from the trombone section along with some terrific writing for auxiliary percussion

Total Recall- sorry but nowhere near a Hart to Hart score and the mere suggestion of this worries me about the listening tastes of some on this forum. :cool:

Planet of the Apes- there's some meaty writing in this and Elfman, who I do admire, never even got close to this brilliance. Not even.

Wind and the Lion- Another colossal theme from a colossal score. Alternating 5ths in the horns is pure power. It also serves to introduce a seed of the main theme by extrapolating the first and strongest interval within the theme

Okay, this could go on ad infinitum

I always thought Elfman's POTA score rivalled Goldsmith's POTA. Elfman's POTA made me a bigger fan of Elfman's. Plus that was one of Elfman's best scores from that decade. The density and texture of Elfman's POTA is just as complex and clever as Goldsmith's, imo. He didn't let the pressure of Goldsmith's score shake him . He was up to the task. And he delivered the goods, imo.

What texture, cleverness or complexity? There's sample library-esque horns, trombones and loud obnoxious percussion that could come from Stormdrum.

When did Elfman have the craft, technique or balls to revolutionise science fiction music (as did Fantastic Voyage - two years prior to Goldsmith's score) - use bass slide whistle, pointillist flutes, tone rows on the piano, horns with reversed mouth pieces, no tuba, rams horns, Tibetan horn, angklungs, cutting edge tape echo, quartal/quintal harmony, trumpets with plunger mutes, electric harp, electric bass clarinet, stainless steel mixing bowls, boo bams, guiro, timbales, bass flutes, alto flutes, resin drums, metal sheets, flutter-tonguing harmon-muted tone clusters on trombones, clarinet key-clicking, and a cuica. There's little to no imagination or originality in Elfman's effort, all of it by very by-the-book.

There's a whole batch of truly talented concert composers out there, post-modern ones who have firm understandings of not only the kind of extended orchestral techniques and mid to late 20th century forms that Goldsmith built his score around - but also what have available now in the 21st century, what Goldsmith didn't use then (microtonality, multiphonics, aleatoricism etc...). They should have done a truly avant garde and compelling score for the Planet of the Apes remake.

Instead, we got a video game score.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

When did Elfman have the craft, technique or balls to revolutionise science fiction music

I doubt that was his aim.

They should have done a truly avant garde and compelling score for the Planet of the Apes remake.

Not that it deserved it.

Instead, we got a video game score.

The movie's a bit of a video game anyway.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

When did Elfman have the craft, technique or balls to revolutionise science fiction music

I doubt that was his aim.

Lack of ambition - that's a common trait among contemporary film composers.

Not that I think Goldsmith wrote the original score with that intention mind you, but I'm fairly sure he wanted to create an odd, alien, soundscape that movie audiences hadn't heard before. Something new. I think that desire to innovate is missing today, by and large.

They should have done a truly avant garde and compelling score for the Planet of the Apes remake.

Not that it deserved it.

What about all of the avant garde and compelling scores that Goldsmith wrote for films... that didn't deserve them?

Instead, we got a video game score.

The movie's a bit of a video game anyway.

Yep, but it would be nice to hear a non-video game score for a video game, or video game movie - for a change.

[lonzoe 18]

Relax Prometheus you act like I said Goldsmith's POTA sucked. All I meant was that I enjoy Elfman's POTA as much as I do Goldsmith's. Is that a crime. I gotta laugh at how misleading your comments are about Elfman's score. Video game score and libraryesque horns etc. Really proves how underrated Elfman's POTA score really is if you think that way. It really shows how biased you are of Goldsmith's score. And how much dislike you have for Elfman. Does it really bother you that someone thinks a remake score by a well known composer can stack up to the original composed by one of the masters of film music ? Even if it's their opinion ?

BTW, Elfman's score doesn't feel or sound like a video game score even compared to Goldsmith's score.

That's good that you've done your homework on Goldsmith's score. Unlike you I'm not a film music expert or student. With that said I am a fan of film music. What you said still doesn't change the fact that I enjoy both equally.

About Elfman's score being textural. It is. In fact I think this is the score where a lot of detractors like yourself say bologna like, "score had no themes". The reason people can't tell where the theme is is b/c the theme is buried in a lot of layers and heavy texture. Therefore it makes it hard for some to comprehend the long line themes. This type of textural style followed in Spider-man, Red Dragon, Hulk, The Kingdom, S.O.P., Wanted, etc. He actually started writing textural scores since Dolores Claiborne. Elfman's POTA is definitely textural and dense. Elfman even explains it in the commentary in the isolated score track for the POTA 2001 dvd. Which you should checkout if you haven't. He kept bringing up how dense he writes. And how Steve Bartek (Elfman's orchestrator/friend) told him that he needed to rewrite the sketches. The orchestra couldn't perform some his sketches b/c of the denseness of his writing was too difficult to perform.

And while we're on the isolated score commentary. Elfman also stated that 75% of the POTA score was him(on drums, synthesisers, and percussion) and the other 25% orchestra. A lot of the percussive instruments he made himself, in fact. He really did his homework on Goldsmith's score and was up to the task. He knew he had a lot to live up to and was excited to add his own voice in the POTA scores. He even came on board before Burton was confirmed to direct and before he even asked Elfman for scoring duties.

Elfman was also a fan of Goldsmith's score. He knew Goldsmith's approach to the original was too bold for the remake and for any movie around the time of the remake and even today. So writing the way Goldsmith wrote for the Burton film would've fell flat.

I also liked that he didn't try to ape or top Goldsmith. He wrote what the remake required and was going for, but failed to succeed at. Burton wanted Elfman to approach the score as two tribes doing battle with each other or something to that extent. I think Elfman succeeded. He wrote a dark, tribal, dense, militaristic, and bombastic score. I don't think the movie called for a score that was going to be groundbreaking and change the filmmusic industry. If anyone came in thinking that then you're bound to be disappointed. I still think he wrote a great score that I believe to be just as dense and enjoyable as Goldsmith's. That's just my opinion.

Sorry to get off topic. Eventhough I didn't pick this re-reissue up. I'm happy that everyone's pleased with this unnecessary re-reissue.

[Datameister 2,042]

I'm fairly sure he wanted to create an odd, alien, soundscape that movie audiences hadn't heard before. Something new. I think that desire to innovate is missing today, by and large.

It's not so much that it's missing - it's just that a lot of the attempts are misfires these days, at least to my ears. I'd never heard a one-note theme till TDK...it was new and innovative. It also sucked.

[1977 1,743]

The expanded Intrada 2 disc release has been made available digitally by StudioCanal:

 

https://play.google.com/store/music/album?id=Bc7nexsfkuooxbm5pllplpg2enm

 

https://music.apple.com/us/album/first-blood/1494167693

 

The expanded remastered Goldsmith trilogy is thus now available digitally.

 

Good show StudioCanal!

[Corellian2019 386]

Just FYI, Screen Archives is currently selling the 2CD Intrada edition at 50% off

[Jurassic Shark 12,076]

I'm betting an improved expansion is imminent in LLL's Goldsmith at 20th series.

[Jay 37,364]

Intrada's definitive editions of all 3 scores are still in print, all three in their permanent MAF/INT line, so their license is still very much active.

https://store.intrada.com/s.nl/it.A/id.6859/.f

https://store.intrada.com/s.nl/it.A/id.10541/.f

https://store.intrada.com/s.nl/it.A/id.11455/.f

 

Also the first film was not a 20th Century Studios film despite what Wikipedia might say, unless you count their India branch handling the home video release for Orion/Carolco there

[Jurassic Shark 12,076]

Yes, I was implying it will be released by LLL's India branch.

[Edmilson 7,448]

Will LLL's India branch release deluxe editions of A.R. Rahman's scores?

[bruce marshall 1,315]

I had it.

Good, not great Goldsmith.

Good presentation.

 

Sold it