GAME OF THRONES

[Quintus 5,399]

So in other words it was just another instance of deus ex machina after all. Tut tut; and here's me thinking Martin was above all that Tolkien conventional stuff.

[Wojo 2,453]

Yes and no. Deus ex machina is usually not foreshadowed. Didn't Stannis see his destiny at the Wall in Melisandre's flame a season ago?

[Quintus 5,399]

Well, in the film at least (I can't remember what happens in the book), Aragorn see's a "vision" of the King of the Dead, beckoning him on toward his own "destiny", in a way.

That particular Deus Ex Machina is foreshadowed a great deal in RotK.

I'm not complaining btw. It was more just a case of my totally not expecting to see Stannis turn up North of the Wall to begin with. It seemingly came completely out of the blue, but then again maybe I haven't been paying attention properly in earlier episodes. His arrival was jarring and even rather baffling to me.

[Wojo 2,453]

The obvious parallel is Gandalf arriving with Eomer on the morning of the third day, which is another movie invention.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

In the book it's far less a Deus Ex Machina then in the movie.

So Arya changes her mind about reuniting with her brother, just like that?

She might believe everyone that comes into contact with her dies...which does sort of happen in a way.

Did the captain Know Jaqen then? Small world, init.

Unknown. There is much that we dont know about the coin or Jaqen, or what special significance it has or the phrase "valar morgulus" that goes with it.

[Quintus 5,399]

So we, the uninitiated tv audience, are asked to just go along with that captain's sudden humbling reaction to the coin then. That's not great writing imo.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Wojo 2,453]

Why? It's precisely what Jaqen told her to do. Show the coin to a Braavosi and speak the words. If Arya doesn't understand how it works, then neither do we. We'll learn when she does.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I cant blame Lee for forgetting.

[Wojo 2,453]

Nobody's here to blame. If it wasn't recapped in the episode preview, though, blame the showrunners for not spoon feeding enough mashed carrots.

[Quintus 5,399]

When Arya left Jaqen at the end of Season 2, he gave her the coin and told her: "If you ever want to find me again, give that coin to a man from Braavos and say these words: Valar Morghulis" (which means "All men must die" in High Valyrian. It is a customary saying in Essos, and is traditionally answered with "Valar dohaeris." (which means "All men must serve)).

Just to put that last scene in some sort of context. I don't know how that thing will play out in Season 5.

Cheers BloodBoal. That makes sense now.

I'd completely forgotten that scene's dialogue in the last season.

Where was the corny flashback for the gormless fucks like me in the audience?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Those would slow the show down even more LOL.

Is it me of is the prospect of Tyrion and Varys traveling together a guarantee for brilliant dialogue scenes?

[crocodile 7,990]

Is it just me or The Hound fought someone else in the book?

Karol

[Quintus 5,399]

Is it just me or The Hound fought someone else in the book?

Karol

He did? Without spoiling anything please!

Is it me of is the prospect of Tyrion and Varys traveling together a guarantee for brilliant dialogue scenes?

Ooo, true.

So anyway have us tv heathens caught up with the books yet or what? How many more seasons till we do?

[crocodile 7,990]

Instead of Brienne, I mean...

I think they want 7 seasons. 7 kingdoms, 7 gods, 7 books.

Karol

[Jay 37,322]

So I haven't seen the season finale (will watch it tonight), but I never posted my usual thoughts on the previous episode, so here we go (I am posting this blind, have not read any posts or internet articles since the finale aired)

Game of Thrones 4x09 The Watchers On The Wall

Sam and Jon talk about relationships - nice little scenes between these two. Feels like it's been a long while since they've been together.

Sam and Maester Aemon - Nice scenes between these two! That Aeomon guy is a Targaryen - did we (non-book-readers) know that before? Not that that fact will have any impact on anything, I'd imagine.

Ygritte and her group south of the wall - I loved how that one guy warged into an owl to spy on the top of the Wall. As soon as Ygritte told the group that Jon was hers alone to kill, I knew we'd get a scene where she had the chance to do so, but delays the kill shot (I was right!)

Gilly returns to Castle Black - Great that her and Sam got to reunite. I admit I was afraid that would mean one of them would die, especially once Sam set her up in the kitchen. Speaking of that kitchen scene, I didn't understand the point of showing that coward leader guy approach her, then later on he was shown just hiding off in the corner. Did I miss something?

The Battle of Castle Black - North side - WOW, some VERY VERY cool stuff here! Absolutely loved the scythe that swiped back and forth, the archers that leaned forward on ropes, the giant that had his own giant bow and arrow, and the giants using wooly mammoths to open The Gate. The only thing kind of odd here was that Mance sent forward such a small army to attack on the first night, but at least Sam acknowledges at the end that if they return the next night in full force, there will be no stopping them. Oh, and the scene where the 5 Crows chanted the Pledge while preparing to fight the giant was really well done. I'm not sure how I feel about the fact that we didn't get to see them fight the giant - was it not shot due to budget restraints, or some kind of artistic / suspense reason? Also, did anybody else think the giants should have been MUCH bigger than they were?

The Battle of Castle Black - South side - Some great fighting here, lots of really cool stuff. I loved Sam and that other guy going around and Sam reloading his weapon for him and helping him make his shots. The general Seige of the castle by the wildlings was sort of reminiscent of TTT and ROTK, but not too much so. That sweeping 360degree (or whatever) shot was really great - they build one damn huge set, eh? The battle between Jon Snow and that big wildling guy was really great, very well done. I can only imagine how much it was have hurt when he clanged Jon's head on the anvil - I half expected Jon to throw up or pass out after that. Not sure how I feel about Tormund taking a ton of arrows and being captured rather than just killed, but I'm sure there's some plot reason.

The death of Ygritte - I guess this was handled well enough. It makes sense that she would die here, in this way, but I'm not sure what her death will do to Jon as a character. Also not sure if it was wise to have her say her catchphrase just before she died.

Jon's plan to go find Mance - Eh, did not like the fade to white as he left to do this, would have preferred to see him confront Mance within the episode, I think. I guess it all depends on what happens next week (you all already know!)

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

The supernatural stuff with Bran is definitely intriguing, in the same way the Walker ending earlier in the season was. Those scenes also had some good music, particularly when the group first sees the tree, and when they enter the raven's cavern.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Quintus 5,399]

Instead of Brienne, I mean.

I'm not understanding you. In the book did the Hound fight Brienne in that moment or not?

In regards to the tv seasons vs books, are you saying that next season we will have caught up?

On another note is anyone else disappointed that we didn't get to see Melisandre's hot bod one last time?

[Wojo 2,453]

Is it just me or The Hound fought someone else in the book?

Karol

The tale of the Hound and Arya is different in the books. The Hound fights two of his brother's men in the book, which cause fatal injuries, but Arya abandons him out of hatred; his exact death is left uncertain. Those two men are the Tickler and Polliver, who are long dead by the time The Hound's story ends on the show.

Brienne never fights the real Hound in the books, only an impostor.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Quintus 5,399]

Is it just me or The Hound fought someone else in the book?

Karol

The tale of the Hound and Arya is different in the books. The Hound fights two of his brother's men in the book, which cause fatal injuries, but Arya abandons him out of hatred; his exact death is left uncertain. Those two men are the Tickler and Polliver, who are long dead by the time The Hound's story ends on the show.

Ah, most interesting to learn this, thanks.

I like how they did it in the show though. How about you?

did anybody else think the giants should have been MUCH bigger than they were?

No, not me anyway.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I agree that the way the did it on the show is much better. Instead of having two fight-scenes between a regular against an unimportant character, it's far more interesting and nail-biting to have two (sort of) main characters fight each other, especially on a show like GOT where either or both could die.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Wojo 2,453]

The change is the culmination of a season long decision to eliminate one character (so far), which rippled through the storylines of several other characters. I don't object to the way it's been handled.

[crocodile 7,990]

I agree that the way the did it on the show is much better. Instead of having two fight-scenes between a regular against an unimportant character, it's far more interesting and nail-biting to have two (sort of) main characters fight each other, especially on a show like GOT where either or both could die.

Yes, that was one of the best scenes this season.

Karol

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yeah, a real brutal fight to the beath, with a rock!

[Quintus 5,399]

That scrap had me on edge like nothing else in ages. At least since the finale 3 episodes of Breaking Bad.

Defo the most gripping fight sequence in memory.

[Olivier 5]

Great episode, especially because it had a unifying theme: "The Children"-- which, surprisingly, also turned out to be the name of a new kind of persons introduced this time.

Good scene with Jon and Mance.

Again, some great scenes with Arya & the Hound, and with Tyrion.

Quite awesome, even.

So the Stark sisters didn't get to meet, and now Arya is on her own, with one name off her list.

The Brienne/Hound duel was great in itself and for the reasons pointed out by Steef.

Splendid special effects: the dragons, the skeletons, the tree illuminated by the sun.

Tyrion's escape: it was a relatively certain thing Jaime would spring him out, but there were many surprises; firstly, the fact that Varys was involved, secondly what Tyrion did before actually leaving, and thirdly Varys' decision to leave-- did he think would be identified as an accomplice? I'm sure he had taken all the necessary precautions not to. Or did he rather fear Jaime's anger, that he would hold him responsible for his father's death because he had not gone and fetched Tyrion (even though it was supposed to be the opposite)?

So that's what Shae did; and the honorable father didn't mind having "a whore"-- most especially that one.

And Cersei's avowal to Tywin won't have much effect, in the end.

The lack of music for the end of the fight between Brienne & Hound, and then for Shae's murder, was the perfect decision.

Powerful scenes.

The staging of Tywin's death was quite hilarious.

Nice variation on the main title at the end.

The Wall (with Castle Black somewhere in the middle) runs due West to East from the sea on the west side of Westeros (the sea containing the Iron Islands) to the sea on the east side, the Narrow Sea between Westeros and Essos. That's the sea where Braavos is, so all Stannis had to do was sail north far enough, and he would make an uncontested landing north of the Wall.

Thanks!

He has been betrayed by so many people he (sorta) trusted this season, even his own family.

I read that the motivations in the book are different, but dragging that up would not have seem very relevant.

Different reasons? Interesting.

The Brienne versus Hound fight is frightening, because it's a fight between two characters you do have a vested interest in, and it's clear one of them will die. Far more emotional resonance then Oberyn vs The Mountain. This fight was also a lot more savage.

Indeed.

The confrontation of two titans.

I was really afraid they might both fall over the cliff, actually, or just bludgeon each other to death with rocks.

I was also a bit surprised (and disappointed?) that Podrick did not help Brienne like he did Tyrion.

Oh speaking of consequences of Oberyn's duel, it seems The Mountain is on his way to become some kind of evil automaton/zombie/cyborg after Qyburn is done with him. Not that it makes much difference to his old self. He perhaps speaks even less.

Yes, that was intriguing. Maybe yet another actor, then?

To be honest, I don't know the names of most characters on the show.

Whew! I'm not the only one.

Is it me of is the prospect of Tyrion and Varys traveling together a guarantee for brilliant dialogue scenes?

Oh yessss!

We've been deprived of Varys/Littlefinger moments for a while, so they had better have plenty of Tyrion/Varys scenes next season.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

That scrap had me on edge like nothing else in ages. At least since the finale 3 episodes of Breaking Bad.

Who were you rooting for?

[Quintus 5,399]

That scrap had me on edge like nothing else in ages. At least since the finale 3 episodes of Breaking Bad.

Who were you rooting for?

I enjoyed the Hound's character, but Brienne all the way. She had the noble and "rightful" claim to victory.

Which is precisely what made the scene all the more terrifying.

[crocodile 7,990]

What is really great and tragic about this confrontation is that both characters are essentially right. Brienne might have noble intentions, but, as Hound puts it, there is no safe place out there any more.

Apparently, in the book the moment Tyrion shoots his fathers his bowels loosen... Didn't expect to see that in the show, though.

Karol

[Quintus 5,399]

Only in Game of Thrones can a man boot a woman in the vagina and still be rooted for on his death bed.

[crocodile 7,990]

Haha true.

Karol

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Apparently, in the book the moment Tyrion shoots his fathers his bowels loosen... Didn't expect to see that in the show, though.

Tywyn Lannister does NOT shit gold!

Which is precisely what made the scene all the more terrifying.

Yep, I fully expected Brienne to die.

[crocodile 7,990]

That would have been a bit too silly, if he really made that remark on the show.

Karol

[Quintus 5,399]

Apparently, in the book the moment Tyrion shoots his fathers his bowels loosen... Didn't expect to see that in the show, though.

Tywyn Lannister does NOT shit gold!

Which is precisely what made the scene all the more terrifying.

Yep, I fully expected Brienne to die.

It was horrible and brilliant to endure!

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

Those would slow the show down even more LOL.

Is it me of is the prospect of Tyrion and Varys traveling together a guarantee for brilliant dialogue scenes?

I'm a big fan of that prospect, especially if that certain other character joins up with Tyrion as I believe happens in the books. What a trio that would be.

[Quintus 5,399]

One half of Robson and Jerome?

Ooo, nice.

guest2 - doesn't mind certain "speculative" spoilers.

CERTAIN ONES.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Hmmm...maybe Jorah, I mean he's wandering now.

[Glóin the Dark 1,220]

The supernatural stuff with Bran is definitely intriguing, in the same way the Walker ending earlier in the season was. Those scenes also had some good music, particularly when the group first sees the tree, and when they enter the raven's cavern.

I'd like to have seen a bit more of that Three Eyed Crow fellow in the episode, or at least for his role to have been depicted in a way which felt more significant.

In regards to the tv seasons vs books, are you saying that next season we will have caught up?

Possibly. Depends on how much of Book 4 and 5 Season 5 will cover.

Thus far Benioff and Weiss have been pretty adamant that they're aiming for seven seasons overall. In that case, or even if it does go up to eight (since Season 5 will already have been planned out and mostly written), I think it will almost certainly correspond to the remainder of the published books. But there's a hell of a lot of important stuff in those books to squeeze into a single season of the usual length...

Sam and Maester Aemon - Nice scenes between these two! That Aeomon guy is a Targaryen - did we (non-book-readers) know that before?

It was revealed in the last episode of Season 1, during a conversation between him and Jon.

And, just to add to that (since it now has more resonance in the light of Season 4's events), Aemon mentioned to Jon that he had been particularly grieved to learn what they had done to "even the little children" - i.e., the children of Elia Martell and Rhaegar Targaryen.

...Varys' decision to leave-- did he think would be identified as an accomplice?

Yeah, I think Tyrion's escape had "Varys" written all over it. He was one of the few to know his way around the Black Cells, for one thing. As to why he chose to leave...well, I'd never be so bold as to attempt to read Varys's mind or guess his motives...

[Quintus 5,399]

Yeah that seems more likely.

I was just sort of hoping I'd see a bit more of Bronn I suppose.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Would be cool. Two men with deep women issues and one who has never been with a woman

[Quintus 5,399]

The supernatural stuff with Bran is definitely intriguing, in the same way the Walker ending earlier in the season was. Those scenes also had some good music, particularly when the group first sees the tree, and when they enter the raven's cavern.

Unlike others here I actually think the music has been a lot better this season.

Still not exactly noteworthy, but not worthless, either.

[crocodile 7,990]

Funnily enough, when I saw the place Bran ends up in, I couldn't help but think of True Detective finale.

Karol

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Well, you love MOS so....

[Quintus 5,399]

Would be cool. Two men with deep women issues and one who has never been with a woman

Those almost classic dialogues between Tyrion and Bronn seem like forgotten fables now, this far into the storyline. Yet I remember when those buddy movie scenes were partly the reason to watch Game of Thrones.

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

Funnily enough, when I saw the place Bran ends up in, I couldn't help but think of True Detective finale.

Karol

Heh, so did I.

[Quintus 5,399]

Funnily enough, when I saw the place Bran ends up in, I couldn't help but think of True Detective finale.

Karol

Thought everyone ever who saw TD

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

On another note is anyone else disappointed that we didn't get to see Melisandre's hot bod one last time?

Glad to see you have taken a fancy to ginger dutchies....