GAME OF THRONES

[Wojo 2,453]

I think this show is just about on the verge of entering Walking Dead territory: significant deviations from the source material. Except, of course, TWD features a lot more zombies.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

From the few things I know about the books that really isnt a bad thing. Don't they really start to drag at some point?

[Wojo 2,453]

I couldn't tell you. Should ask someone who's read them.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I do. Every week.

[Wojo 2,453]

Life's short and I'm not interested in the long haul. That's what Wikipedia is for.

[KK 3,307]

Yeah, but was it supposed to be her arc which was "heartbreaking" in the book? Because that wasn't really communicated at all in the show. Why is it more heartbreaking in the book? Can someone properly explain Arya's finale scene to me... the iron piece, the name she mentioned to that ship trader chap. What was it? Is he taking her North to the Wall or not?

I wasn't referring to Arya. In fact, much of her storyline here didn't really happen in the book (she never met Brienne). It's just when you compile a bunch of climactic plot points in that hour timeframe, you lose its effectiveness. Tyrion's banishment doesn't quite hit you here as it did in the book. The mystery and intrigue of the Children of the Forest doesn't leave you at the edge of your seat here like it did in the book. The Stannis rescue isn't as impressive (they should have saved that for the episode before). And so on.

Having said that, this show has made some wiser deviations from the book (ex. the Arya/Hound stuff), and the novels do slow down quite a bit, but sometimes the way they choose to distribute the plot stuff between the episodes is frustrating.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yeah...but Tyrion and Varys, man!

[KK 3,307]

Indeed! Some cool stuff coming up.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

How can you know!

Varys doesnt leave with Tyrion in the books

[KK 3,307]

I was referring to the incidents you'll see with Tyrion. And you're right, Varys doesn't leave withTrion. But Varys does disappear on his own after the incident.

Which is an interesting point to bring up, because Varys did still have a part to play in King's Landing, under the shadows.

I just hope they finally give more showtime to Varys. He's one of the more interesting characters in the show.

[Jay 37,355]

Just watched the S4 finale.

That was awesome! Is there any way that can't be considered the best episode of the season? So much cool stuff happened!

RIP Hound, Jojen, Tywin, Shae..... wow!

Will read thoughts posted here and post my own tomorrow.

Damn!

[chuck 154]

Needs some more aloe vera...

... for the burn.

[Bilbo 3,709]

From the few things I know about the books that really isnt a bad thing. Don't they really start to drag at some point?

They do. A Feast For Crows pretty much just features descriptions of food, sigils, and clothes. They're starting to make changes for the better and I expect us to be through books 4 and 5 next season. From what I've heard minor new characters are going to get combined with older more established characters to prevent 457875032457 storylines with nothing happening in them.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,714]

From what I've heard minor new characters are going to get combined with older more established characters to prevent 457875032457 storylines with nothing happening in them.

Don't we already have that?

Hey Martin is doing his best to cull too many characters from the series. We had 4 deaths in the last episode! Tywin Lannister's ignoble death still haunts me. Everything went down the drain after that!

[Quintus 5,399]

Dance was awesome in this, but his final scene was worthy of the character and the show.

[Bilbo 3,709]

From what I've heard minor new characters are going to get combined with older more established characters to prevent 457875032457 storylines with nothing happening in them.

Don't we already have that?

Hey Martin is doing his best to cull too many characters from the series. We had 4 deaths in the last episode! Tywin Lannister's ignoble death still haunts me. Everything went down the drain after that!

No, the showrunners are doing their best to cull characters and their doing a decent job of it.

In the latter books Martin just adds 3 pointless characters for everyone he kills.

[Quintus 5,399]

Sounds like the books get a bit shitty later on. Is it likely the show will in the end be superior?

[Bilbo 3,709]

So far it looks like the show will indeed be superior. Many of the changes they've made throughout the series have been great. Tywin meeting Arya in season 2, for example, was amazing and provided some of the best scenes in the show.

The showrunners seem to realize the the latter books are too big and not much happens so they're combing stuff and making changes. I was dreading series 5 because of the books but because of the changes we've seen in series 4 I'm really looking forward to it. We just have to wait until March 2015 now

[Quintus 5,399]

If anything Martin's probable failure to complete the saga on time should be considered a gift by the writers of the show. As long as they have the outlines and key plot points (which I understand they are being given) then they are able to take the show to its completion free of the pressures and challenges involved in restructuring novels for tv.

There could yet be a distinct sense of focus coming to the fore once we overtake Martin, which would be a huge boon for this frequently loose and messy TV adaptation.

[KK 3,307]

From the few things I know about the books that really isnt a bad thing. Don't they really start to drag at some point?

They do. A Feast For Crows pretty much just features descriptions of food, sigils, and clothes. They're starting to make changes for the better and I expect us to be through books 4 and 5 next season. From what I've heard minor new characters are going to get combined with older more established characters to prevent 457875032457 storylines with nothing happening in them.

Feast for Crows is definitely the weakest of the books. But even there, it has interesting stuff going on. I eagerly look forward to seeing the events of King's Landing unfold on screen.

[Glóin the Dark 1,220]

I don't agree that Books 4 and 5 are significantly inferior. It's true that they do have 457875032457 storylines. And there probably isn't any chain of events quite as thrilling as the King's Landing story between Joffrey's wedding and Tyrion's escape, which form the backbone of Season 4. But then Season 4 is an adaptation of less than half of one book (give or take certain things). There's perhaps around three times as much source material to be adapted into Season 5 (in all likelihood) - still an awful lot even when the descriptions of sigils and dinners are excised. And consider the existing storylines which are now known to be continuing:

1. King's Landing
2. Tyrion
3. The Wall (and Stannis)
4. Daenerys
5. Arya
6. Sansa and Littlefinger
7. Bran
8. The Boltons and Reek
9. Brienne and Pod

In addition to these, the casting and location scouting news shows that at least one of the three major new storylines will be included. I really hope that Season 5 will have a longer overall running time than the previous ones!

One device for tying some of the new things together might involve (book spoilers):

Tyrion's route being redirected through Dorne rather than through Pentos.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Needs some more aloe vera...

... for the burn.

Hahaha

[Brónach 1,302]

Jojen's death feels weird. Like there isn't a point to it like to many other deaths in the show.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Glóin the Dark 1,220]

I guess Jojen's death is supposed to heighten the sense of jeopardy for Bran in the outside world, and the consequent feeling that the abode of the Three Eyed Raven is a safe haven. And to give the impression that something has happened to Team Bran at the end of the season, other than their arrival at a mysterious place whose significance has yet to be explained...

[Quintus 5,399]

Jojen was a pretty useless character and became quite a liability pretty quickly. His death didn't have any impact whatsoever.

Neither did Ygritte's as far as I was concerned. Her romance with Jon Snow last year is but a vague memory. Just another dead Wildling.

[Bilbo 3,709]

Jojen's death feels weird. Like there isn't a point to it like to many other deaths in the show.

His function was to get Bran to the tree he did, They killed him for casting budget reasons.

I also though his death stopped that action sequence being completely silly. At least it had a cost.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Brónach 1,302]

Jojen was a pretty useless character and became quite a liability pretty quickly. His death didn't have any impact whatsoever.

If we had had more scenes with these people. It felt like there was going to be a development or a point at some point and then nothing. They did a Lost!

It did feel silly that they stabbed him several times, cut his throught and then made him explode.

Jojen was a pretty useless character and became quite a liability pretty quickly. His death didn't have any impact whatsoever.

Neither did Ygritte's as far as I was concerned. Her romance with Jon Snow last year is but a vague memory. Just another dead Wildling.

I cheered when Ygritte died!

I only started to care about Jon and Ygritte after she shot him and let him escape. But their relationship before felt forced. "This has to happen! The plot summary says so!"

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,714]

Anyway, that wasn't going anywhere and now it's over. Good riddance!

Yeah. It is handled a bit differently in the novel, has time to develop and Jon is several years younger so it somehow makes a bit more sense that he has his first teenage love affair with this Wildling girl and falls in love a bit. And then again the older incarnation in the series feels better suited to be the leader of the Night's Watch than some 15 year old.

[Wojo 2,453]

I had a very hard time not singing the Bon Jovi at the moment of her death when I rewatched the episode.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Thats a brilliant Youtube clip

[Glóin the Dark 1,220]

Interesting to note that the TV series has now covered (in most respects) what would have been the first book of George R. R. Martin's originally planned trilogy - I guess that goes some way to explaining the greater sense of climax across so many storylines than in the previous seasons.

I hope the second two installments of that original plan don't end up getting multiplied by the same factor...

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Wojo 2,453]

I can't find that interview. I have found his interview, though, with EW from last June that states he killed Robb to subvert reader expectations. Everyone expected Ned to be the hero and survive, but then they expected the eldest son to avenge his father. Not to be.

[Glóin the Dark 1,220]

I don't think I've seen that particular thing about Robb. It would be interesting to know what exactly the planned story was in the trilogy days. In any case, if we regard the first three books as a single unit, the Red Wedding occurs about 87% of the way through, so the claim about Robb's death being at the end of the first book might not be inconsistent with the actual outcome, unless he meant literally at the end.

[Jay 37,355]

Entertainment Weekly has a bunch of articles about the finale

Interview with Benioff & Weiss: http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/06/15/game-of-thrones-showrunners-on-season-4-finale-twists/

Interview with GRRMartin: http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/06/16/game-of-thrones-finale-martin/

(Strangely, he says a future book will reveal more about Shae and Tywin. Seems odd...)

Interview with Dinklage and Dance: http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/06/16/game-of-thrones-dinklage-dance-tywin-tyrion/

Interview with Gwendoline Christie: http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/06/15/game-of-thrones-hound-brienne-finale-fight/

And two articles about Lady Stoneheart (SPOILERS if you haven't read the books)

http://popwatch.ew.com/2014/06/15/game-of-thrones-finale-lady-stoneheart/

and

http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/06/16/game-of-thrones-why-no-lady-stoneheart/

[Olivier 5]

Jojen was a pretty useless character and became quite a liability pretty quickly. His death didn't have any impact whatsoever.

If we had had more scenes with these people. It felt like there was going to be a development or a point at some point and then nothing. They did a Lost!

It did feel silly that they stabbed him several times, cut his throught and then made him explode.

At least this didn't leave much room for doubt, did it? He must be pretty dead.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Glóin the Dark 1,220]

OK, I've found where it was mentioned: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rains_of_Castamere

Ah, cheers.

(Strangely, he says a future book will reveal more about Shae and Tywin. Seems odd...)

Interesting (though not surprising) that he specifically mentions Varys in this regard. I suppose the first assumption would have to be that Varys helped facilitate Shae's involvement with Tywin for the purpose of having an informant. Maybe Shae was one of Varys's little birds all along!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,355]

I thought it was odd because if there is more to their story, why not just tell it while they were not alive? What relevance will it have 3-4 books after their deaths?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Glóin the Dark 1,220]

Here's how the different storylines are apportioned in Season 4. There's a bit of overlapping here and there but nothing that makes much of a difference. I've separately rounded off the running times (to the nearest five minutes) and the percentages (to the nearest whole number).

 

Season 4:

1. King's Landing: 175 mins (34%)
2. The Wall and the Night's Watch: 110 mins (21%)
3. Daenerys: 55 mins (10%)
4. Arya: 45 mins (8%)
5. Sansa with Littlefinger: 35 mins (7%)
6. Bran: 30 mins (6%)
7. Reek and the Boltons: 25 mins (5%)
8. Stannis and Melisandre: 25 mins (5%)
9. Brienne and Pod's Journey: 20 mins (3%)

[Jay 37,355]

Do you count the Battle of Caster's Keep as Bran time or Wall time?

[Glóin the Dark 1,220]

Any time that Bran or his mates were present I gave to him; the rest (e.g. Jon's fight with Karl) to the Wall. There wasn't much back-and-forth between the two, so they divided up pretty easily.

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

This show is really good when stuff actually happens. And there was even a fair amount of nice music.

I actually found the music during the previous episode mostly effective and better than here in the finale. The harmonies in the main theme near the end seemed... odd. There's not really that much to the theme anyway, besides a ridiculously high catchiness, and every time it's used as actual score makes that more obvious.

Tyrion did not commit regicide, but here he commits patricide!

I'm gonna miss Tywyn.

The murders are shocking for the character, who has never done anything like this before. But dramatically it doesnt come out of no where.

The long term motivation is well established, but I don't find the way they handled it entirely satisfactory. Yes, Tyrion is desperate, disappointed and antagonised by his family. But he's also intelligent and generally knows to restrain himself (except for his big mouth). His actual tipping point from the book is absent from the series, and I found the book version more convincing. Plus it packs quite a bit of extra punch.

Varys leaving King's Landing is interesting.

I just hope they don't make him a substitute for the cheese monger.

Oh and speaking of dragons, the design of them is quite awesome. Except they should have 4 legs!

Kidding kidding, 2 legs are just fine!

Why? It's precisely what Jaqen told her to do. Show the coin to a Braavosi and speak the words. If Arya doesn't understand how it works, then neither do we. We'll learn when she does.

It also works the same way in the book.

[BloodBoal 7,538]