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16 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

Clearly Melisandre believed the Lord of Light wished her to die having done her part.

That's probably the best explanation.

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Can anyone explain Melisandra please? When did we last see her? I remember she’s actually an old lady and put leeches on Gendry, but honestly I’m lost when it comes to her character’s motivation and purpose.

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22 minutes ago, Holko said:

If there's a time to choose to die, it's after you helped save humanity.

 

So she’s basically the Gandalf of Westeros. 

 

A sexy Gandalf. 

 

14 minutes ago, Alex said:

Can anyone explain Melisandra please? When did we last see her? I remember she’s actually an old lady and put leeches on Gendry, but honestly I’m lost when it comes to her character’s motivation and purpose.

 

Last saw her with the gang in Winterfell*, Davos the Onion Knight told Jonny S what she did, re: Ed Shireen, said if he saw her again he’d end that bitch. Then she gone. 

 

*Or was it Dragonstone? I’m not sure actually 

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48 minutes ago, Alex said:

Can anyone explain Melisandra please? When did we last see her? I remember she’s actually an old lady and put leeches on Gendry, but honestly I’m lost when it comes to her character’s motivation and purpose.

 

Basically she is a "Red Priestess" in a religion that worships "The Lord of Light", which is a religion from Essos that doesn't really exist in Westeros.  So everything she does is basically in the name of her religion.

 

Throughout seasons 2-5 she was working with Stannis because she believed he was "The Prince That Was Promised".  She created the smoke monster thingy that killed Renly, she used leeches with Gendry's blood in to perform a blood ritual in order to kill the other usurpers (Robb, Joffrey and Balon Greyjoy.... who all died not terribly long after), she convinced Stannis to sacrifice his daughter in order to win his charge against Winterfell, etc.  She also was the one to convince him that the true threat was coming down from north of the wall, not the fight for the Iron Throne, which is how he ended up north by Winterfell to begin with...

 

After he died, in season 6 she's hanging out Castle Black and ends up bringing Jon Snow back to life, and then becomes convinced he's the Prince That Was Promised, not Stannis.  But Davos finds out she was behind Shireen's death, so Jon banishes her from the north.

 

In Season 7 she show up at Dragonstone and now seems to imply that Daenerys could actually be the Princess That Was Promised, and urges her to meet up with Jon Snow.  Once he arrives she stays away from both of them, and before leaving Dragonstone, she tells Varys that her work is done now that she brought Ice and Fire together, but that she is destined to die in Westeros, just like he is.

 

And then we didn't see her until this week's episode.

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1 hour ago, Jay said:

I still dislike that they turned her necklace into a magic once that changes her appearance, she had had a scene in an early season where she wasn't wearing it.

 

I'm not inclined to take that device so literally. I see it basically like this: Melisandre has a special ruby which fuels or enhances her magical abilities, including changing her appearance. Back in Season 6, to illuminate something of her character, the writers included the scene in which, while alone, she suspends the spell which makes her look younger. Having her remove the ruby was just a handy visual way to convey what was gong on; then, in yesterday's episode, they used the same device to show her relinquishing her magic for good. There needn't be any contradiction with the bath scene if we interpret the removal of the ruby as serving this purpose, rather than indicating that she can only access its power while making physical contact with it.

 

33 minutes ago, Jay said:

So?

Keep wearing that necklace and keep boning hot young dudes!

 

In one of the books, Melisandre has a point-of-view chapter in which it becomes clear that sustaining her magical spells is something that she finds exhausting (although she is desperate to make everyone else think that her powers come effortlessly). In the show this isn't communicated directly, but I think that it did at least manage to convey a sense of weariness to her character, after her crisis of confidence upon realising that she'd been wrong about Stannis. She's been fanatically devoted to playing (what she perceived as) her destined part in the service of the Lord of Light. That's all she's been living (and boning hot young dudes) for, and the central tenet of her religion is that everything is headed towards a final showdown between the Lord of Light and his nemesis, the Great Other - which is what Melisandre and others of her religion interpret the war with the White Walkers to be. Having played her part, and helped to win the war for her god, she's exhausted and just wants to rest in peace...

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38 minutes ago, Fargo said:

 

So she’s basically the Gandalf of Westeros. 

 

A sexy Gandalf. 

 

At the risk of being banished from this forum, I’ve never read or seen LOTR!

32 minutes ago, Jay said:

Basically she is a "Red Priestess" in a religion that worships "The Lord of Light", which is a religion from Essos that doesn't really exist in Westeros.  So everything she does is basically in the name of her religion.

 

Throughout seasons 2-5 she was working with Stannis because she believed he was "The Prince That Was Promised".  She created the smoke monster thingy that killed Renly, she used leeches with Gendry's blood in to perform a blood ritual in order to kill the other usurpers (Robb, Joffrey and Balon Greyjoy.... who all died not terribly long after), she convinced Stannis to sacrifice his daughter in order to win his charge against Winterfell, etc.  She also was the one to convince him that the true threat was coming down from north of the wall, not the fight for the throne, which is how he ended up north by Winterfell to begin with...

 

After he died, in season 6 she's hanging out Castle Black and ends up bringing Jon Snow back to life, and then becomes convinced he's the Prince That Was Promised, not Stannis.  But Davos finds out she was behind Shireen's death, so Jon banishes her from the north.

 

In Season 7 she shows up at Dragonstone and now seems to imply that Daenerys could actually be the Princess That Was Promised, and urges her to meet up with Jon Snow.  Once he arrives she stays away from both of them, and before leaving Dragonstone, she tells Varys that her work is done now that she brought Ice and Fire together, but that she is destined to die in Westeros, just like he is.

 

And then we didn't see her until this week's episode.

 

Thanks very much!

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What did everyone think about the battle storytelling in this episode?

 

My immediate reaction is that LotR's battles are *safe* - they're still the benchmark and by a significant margin. (This genuinely surprises me, particularly after the outstandingly directed Hardhome). But as it stands, LotR sits comfortably on the epic fantasy battles throne, unconcerned.

 

8XRQYG2.jpg

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I'm surprised at the controversy. I thought it was mostly a fine episode. The battle was relentless, which was clearly its major point. The longer it went on, the more obvious it became that the only logical outcome could be the death of everyone in Winterfell (and subsequently in Westeros), and that therefore the episode *had* to end with an eucatastrophe that would then of course instantly save everyone who hadn't died yet. In the last 20 minutes or so, it was clear that the Night King couldn't survive this episode with three more to go. As such, I'd say his death was as plausible as it could be. He was shown to be too strongly rooted in Ice stuff to be killed by fire. Jon's failed attempt to kill him showed that there was basically no hope of isolating him, or getting at him without total stealth. That leaves Arya, the trained ninja, and a Dragonglass blade. The only problem (and not a minor one) was that after several exciting sequences, Arya (and Melisandre and the Hound) were left in what seemed to be a dead end, only for Melisandre to give her a cryptic hint, prompting Arya to sneak away and not show up again until she suddenly jumps the NK - basically turning a half way setup into a rather painful deus ex machina. Luckily, I'm enough of an Arya fan for the scene to still work for me, but that (non-)buildup really was handled poorly.

 

Regarding the image quality: It didn't seem too dark to me. Dark, yes, so obviously not meant to be watched on a reflective screen in blazing daylight, but who expected that? After years of everyone complaining that Winter would never come, there was finally plenty of snow, obviously making much of the battle intentionally hard to see. My big gripe was the compression. All I had to watch was a 4.3 GB FullHD download, and the compression just couldn't handle so much action and darkness. A re-compressed FullHD stream of a feature length episode squeezed into the size of a single layer DVD simply can't expect to manage something like this, and considering Netflix compression for lighter fare is bad enough (with way too much banding and lots of smeared grain), I just doubt that streaming, at least with the bandwidth you can get with a cable connection in Central Europe, is ready for 80 minute snowy night battles. In early scenes of Jon and Dany overseeing the buildup before the battle, the banding was so bad that they looked like they had been poorly matted on to a blue/gray mosaic.

8 hours ago, Jay said:

Another issue is really that there, ultimately, is no war between Man and the Undead.  It all comes down to just one Battle.

 

The War of the Five Kings lasted for years.  It consisted of many battles, some we saw on screen, some we heard talked about as happening off screen.


But the biggest threat we've been following since minute 1 of episode 1 ends up concluding after a single night of combat.

 

That reminds me a bit of people complaining about Sauron not coming out to fight in person at the climax of LOTR (the book; it nearly happened in the film). But the whole point of every word in the story up to that point is that he was all but invincible, and if he ever had the slightest inkling of what was going on, and came out to fight, all would be lost in an instant.

 

The Night King and his army were so dreadful because they also were pretty much invincible. Drawing out that conflict would only work by making them much weaker. And I think that's something this episode conveyed really well: They were going to win, and quickly, and there was no way to stop them - other than kill the NK, and quickly, before nobody was left to do it.

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Sure. I just wish there was more of a supernatural/magical way to defeat him, and not a quick stab to the gut. Valyran steel and dragon glass should have been how they kept the other Walkers at bay, with something more interesting reserved for him specifically. Oh well. 

 

I'm still looking forward to the final 3 episodes for sure! 

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One thing that I forgot about which now seems to have been total misdirection or misunderstanding on my part is the big contraption at the Citadel library that mirrors the sun/astrolabe thing from the opening credits.  When Sam leaves, he gives it one final look as though we're supposed to think he's later going to realize its use against the Walkers or something.  Guess not.  Was he just taking a final glance at the place he waited so long to get to and was now leaving?

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2 hours ago, Quintus said:

What did everyone think about the battle storytelling in this episode?

 

My immediate reaction is that LotR's battles are *safe* - they're still the benchmark and by a significant margin. (This genuinely surprises me, particularly after the outstandingly directed Hardhome). But as it stands, LotR sits comfortably on the epic fantasy battles throne, unconcerned.

 

8XRQYG2.jpg

 

I wonder if there are some posters coming in here to accuse you of sexism.

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I actually don't think we are done with the magical/White Walker/3 Eyed Raven angle. There's only three episodes left to wrap everything up but I can't be certain that storyline is dead. Where was Bran warg-ing all that time during the battle? He obviously has some connection to the NK. There has to be more backstory. 

 

Also, I haven't been involved in this thread until now so this may have been covered, but I want some fleshing out of the NK/Bran/Stark relationship. This video touches on it - 

 

 

Additionally, the fact that he can ride a dragon (even though he "turned" it) becomes a little more interesting after last night and his ability to be completely unharmed by fire. 

 

I'm not saying he's got Targaryen blood in his lineage... I'm just saying it's interesting that he can ride a dragon and is immune to fire. It likely is meaningless, but with all the focus on the Walkers since literally the opening scene of the first episode, I hope we get something more. 

 

Overall, I really enjoyed last night's episode. The quality of the HBONow stream was absolute garbage. We stopped 30 minutes in and literally rewatched at like midnight and it was much better. I like that it was Arya that took him down, but like I said, I am not sure we are totally done with his story. The foreshadowing of Bran giving her the dagger in that same spot and that it is also the spot where Jon says to her, "How did you sneak up on me like that?" shows her fulfilling her destiny.

 

Only three episodes left. We've got a lot of ground to cover. Drama/infighting between Sansa/the north and Dany, Jon and Dany needing to figure out their relationship post the revelation of his true lineage...plus Cersei. That's a lot to do in three episodes. I can't wait.

 

This is why I still prefer watching shows like this live versus just binging. I love all the discussions, fan theories, etc. That's half the fun! :)

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So I didn't read everything that was said here, but for the most part, I wasn't that surprised by the episode. It represents everything the show had become once it went off-script. And I long suspected that many of the elaborate fan-theories (especially nuanced suggestions/perspectives a la Gloin's) would never have a chance to make it onto screen. GOT went Hollywood a long time ago, and so everything about this episode was going to scream spectacle and cheap thrills.

 

With all that said, I thought the battle was staged well. I had no problem seeing the action really, and thought the idea of the endless night was visually represented well, though it takes many cues from some of the Mordor/Pelennor battles in LOTR. Because it was so long, and there were so many characters, and the tactics of these creatures was already largely familiar, it might not have sustained the intensity of something as terrifying as Hardhome, but it was staged well.

 

It's just a shame that the writers ended up not making even the slightest effort to address the elaborate character backgrounds, sometimes quite mystical (especially with Arya and Bran), into context. Long before Melisandre even gives away the climax, I was musing on how useless her "Girl with No Name" stuff ended up being, aside from just being able to fight better. And that's the case with many of these characters, the Three-Eyed Raven being of particular disappointment.

 

With that said, cheap thrills still work. If the execution was a little less hokey (Arya jumping onto the Night King? Come on...), they might have even gotten away with it better. Though there was a point where I genuinely thought Arya was a goner...but a deus ex machina was inevitable anyway.

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4 hours ago, KK said:

I thought the battle was staged well. I had no problem seeing the action really, and thought the idea of the endless night was visually represented well, though it takes many cues from some of the Mordor/Pelennor battles in LOTR. 

 

I thought there were some fairly well done moments here and there (the great retreat behind the walls and "light the moat!" suspense device), but overall I thought the visual language of the episode was weirdly very bad and clumsy. When you look at other great cinematic battles, including past ones in this show, they all have in common really strong battle/action storytelling in the orchestration and direction: the way the opposing sides engage with each other, the emotional stakes, the suspense devices, and the dynamics of the melee itself, they culminate to tell a kinetic and electrifying visual story. When done well, these extended sequences can feel like self-contained entertainments with an understandable visual narrative of their own. Here though, at Winterfell, I thought the mounting and execution of a great assault was really sloppily done. This is no classic fantasy battle.

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I was so sorry to witness the umpteenth resurrection of the Deus Ex-Machina narrative gimmick to resolve a loose end--Arya disappearing (after almost being killed by the wights) and then popping out from nowhere Ninja-style jumping on frozen Darth Maul was absolutely ridiculous. I had much respect for Benioff and Weiss until now, but this is unexcusable, goes well beyond suspension of disbelief. It's just bad writing.

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Who did not love the music?

 

Also, I'm slowly coming around to the fact that it was really an okay episode. I guess my only complaint with the show in general now is that too much happened off-screen. Why couldn't we have ONE scene in which Bran told everyone where the White Walkers came from? Instead I had to go back to a two-minute scene in season 6.

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The music was about as serviceable as it's always been throughout the series. A couple of slightly more noticeable highlights here and there don't make me suddenly think it's anything particularly extraordinary.

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57 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

Why couldn't we have ONE scene in which Bran told everyone where the White Walkers came from? Instead I had to go back to a two-minute scene in season 6.

 

That's kinda the problem with the show's treatment of the White Walkers. They touch upon their origins...once. Their exact motivations? Who knows. They're just omnipotent, unstoppable malevolence.

 

Pity.

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8 hours ago, ZackR said:

There has to be more backstory. 

 

I really hope you're right.

 

The show spends 8 seasons saying, "This is the true threat, it transcends these petty power squabbles about who sits on some throne."

 

Now, "OK, we got that shit out of the way, back to the petty power squabbles!!"

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Rhetorical question: What was the point of all those shots of Jon and Dany swirling about in the wind on their dragons? We kept cutting back to them what seemed like again and again to see them doing the exact same thing - swirling around in the dark. Okay we get - they're disoriented.

 

More weird direction. Has this guy done great GoT episodes in the past or something? 

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Yeah I thought something was off immediately when I saw Jon surveying the field from afar on some hill instead of on the frontline with the men. Maybe he knows he's more important now as the actual heir?

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1 hour ago, Quintus said:

The music was about as serviceable as it's always been throughout the series. A couple of slightly more noticeable highlights here and there don't make me suddenly think it's anything particularly extraordinary.

 

Yeah, true

 

But i love how unintenionally they distinguish the characteristic of the show using the music; they really want to stress that this is not your classic, epic-in-scale medieval spectacle; this is a more intimate, post-modern approach of the genre, hence the simple-sounding of the music.

 

or...

 

the creators dont give a damn about the music (except the title)

 

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34 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

Now, "OK, we got that shit out of the way, back to the petty power squabbles!!"

 

Game of Thrones is all about that pettiness, though.

 

On paper, its the sort of "down with this mythological cr@p, this is real politik, emphasis on the 'real.'"

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1 minute ago, Chen G. said:

On paper, its the sort of "down with this mythological cr@p, this is real politik, emphasis on the 'real.'"

 

Supposedly that's what the books are. A subversion of fantasy tropes.

 

The show has been moving away from that though.

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I've always enjoyed the interpersonal dynamics and power struggles most as well.  But "rising above petty power squabbles to face an existential threat" is 100% definitely a theme of the show.  And much like with Tolkien, people love to take the theme and apply it to whatever their pet real world issue is.

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11 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

Tonight’s Jeopardy was more thrilling than anything that happened on Thrones last night.

$18!

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6 minutes ago, Bilbo said:

Helms Deep is the on-screen battle to beat full stop. It has never been bettered.

 

On-screen siege battle to beat.

 

In terms of a battle in the open - as much as I love the Lord of the Rings - the Battle of Stirling remains king.

 

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3 hours ago, Quintus said:

The music was about as serviceable as it's always been throughout the series. A couple of slightly more noticeable highlights here and there don't make me suddenly think it's anything particularly extraordinary.

 

To be honest, I found the end music weirdly distracting. It certainly was no "Light of the Seven".

 

 
 
 
2 hours ago, Quintus said:

More weird direction. Has this guy done great GoT episodes in the past or something? 

 

I believe he's the guy who directed the Hardhome battle.

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44 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

That really only proves that a lot of the confusion wasn't necessarily the brightness, but incoherence of editing and staging.

 

No, because that looked a lot brighter than what I was looking at on my TV.

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2 hours ago, Quintus said:

More weird direction. Has this guy done great GoT episodes in the past or something? 

 

This episode was directed by Miguel Sapochnik, who directed the Hardhome episode from season 5, and the final 2 episodes of 6 season (so the Battle of the Bastards, then the one where Cersei blows up everyone)

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36 minutes ago, Jay said:

 

This episode was directed by Miguel Sapochnik, who directed the Hardhome episode from season 5, and the final 2 episodes of 6 season (so the Battle of the Bastards, then the one where Cersei blows up everyone)

 

Christ, I think he REALLY dropped the ball here then (along with his editor, and his writers).

 

1 hour ago, Bilbo said:

Helms Deep is the on-screen battle to beat full stop. It has never been bettered.

 

It was bettered in the movie that followed up on it. The Battle of the Pelennor fields is the fantasy battle benchmark to this day. There's still a chance Cersei versus the North could outdo it somehow, but now I seriously doubt that's a possibility any more. Besides, the wind has been taken out of this show's grand finale sails somewhat after how the last episode went down.

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2 minutes ago, Quintus said:

The Battle of the Pelennor fields is the fantasy battle benchmark to this day.

 

There are two ways you can look at battles in film. Battles as action setpieces, in which case Helm's Deep takes the cake. Or battles are the stage and leverage for drama, in which case The Pelennor easily overtakes it.

 

Its the same with comparing the Battle of Stirling with the Battle of Falkirk. The one's visceral and immersive, the other's operatic in its twists and turns.

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