GAME OF THRONES

[Incanus 5,714]

I've been enjoying the Cersei/Margaery stuff, which has taken up unfortunately little time at this point.

The King's Landing material has had more time than any other thread this season (though not by as large a margin as we're used to from previous years). I guess that's not much consolation if you're bored by the stories up north and out east (which I personally am not).

Someone Has Done A Statistical Analysis Of Rape In Game Of Thrones

http://io9.com/someone-has-done-a-statistical-analysis-of-rape-in-game-1707037159

47 episodes in total, 50 acts of rape. Makes you wonder what we are watching for our entertainment sometimes.

Indeed.

Virtually all fictional entertainment involves placing characters in positions of danger, pain, misery to varying degrees of severity. Of course, readers/viewers will all have different levels of tolerance in relation to the severity, and the balance between pain and pleasure depicted. But I think it's a very serious matter when people (as many have been doing in relaion to Game of Thrones especially over the last couple of weeks) go beyond expressing their own distaste for certain types of fictitious scenario and begin to cast moral judgments on the creation of these fictions, or on the character of either the creators or the willing audience.

I had a fair idea what type of thing was in store in the first episode when the apparent protagonist and hero, in his second scene, beheaded a defenseless, frightened man.

It is a choice to show the beheadings, the slitting of a throats or rapes and when you have enough of those it might give some indication to what the makers of the show think will bring people to the seats each season. Certainly the series goes well beyond the call of duty with these titillating and shocking elements since the further we go the more they seem to add these elements to the series. Some people claim this is great because it feels or looks real. Martin's books present a disillusioned and very ugly but also a very realistic medieval setting that differs from the usually clean and ideal fantasy settings of countless authors when it comes to the daily struggle of people of all classes in a feudal system of powerful and the meek and while Martin's novels have a fair share of gruesome gore, torture and sex, it by now pales in comparison with the series. Perhaps it is the difference between the literary and film world, the written word and imagination and the modern film making. We seem to have been desensitized to both naked flesh and violence so there is no more possibility to hint at things, infer or indirectly tell of these aspects. You always have to show everything now as it is more gritty and "real" and thus automatically better, which I personally criticise and not only in this series but in movies and TV series in general.

And no I am not saying we all are mindless, blood hungry, violent, murderous, torture loving sex maniacs because we watch the series Gloin.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Glóin the Dark 1,220]

And no I am not saying we all are mindless, blood hungry, violent, murderous, torture loving sex maniacs because we watch the series Gloin.

Never thought you were!

On that issue, though, it comes to mind that hardly any of the recent criticism directed at Game of Thrones (in fact, none that I can recall) is attacking the show on the grounds that it might inspire imitative behaviour, or have any direct harmful effects. The majority of the complaints seem to come with the implicit assumption that the depiction of certain nasty situations is a priori wrong and to be avoided, unless perhaps the scene merits some sort special dispensation by virtue of its context or treatment. This is an assumption which I fundamentally disagree with. The onus is on the person making the complaint to give good reasons showing that the object of their complaint is indeed harmful.

Some people claim this is great because it feels or looks real...You always have to show everything now as it is more gritty and "real" and thus automatically better...

I'd certainly distance myself from these types of claims. My stance is not that the violence in Game of Thrones is justified for one reason or another, but that it simply has no case to answer.

Can we just all agree that the show is past its prime and that people who think it's still great are deluded fanboys?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Glóin the Dark 1,220]

You silly oss.

[KK 3,307]

The Sansa storyline seems to be building to her finally taking a stand for herself.

You'd think so wouldn't you? And then this last episode puts her back where she started. She's still as helpless as ever, and it's like the whole King's Landing situation is happening again in Winterfell, but this time with daily rape. It's annoying.

This season is definitely among the weaker ones, if only because there isn't much content to build off from. In season 4, you had plenty of dramatic things happen in the middle episodes (the Purple Wedding, Lysa Arryn's fate, etc), but here not so much. The one promising thing about this season is that it finally seems to be driving closer to "big picture" stuff and in that sense I think it acts like a transitional season. Let's hope it pays off in the 5th season.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I'm not judging the show because of it's violence. It's just simply that right now I really don't feel like watching it.

The shows main gimmick of suddenly killing of key, often sympathetic characters might be starting to hurt it.

The list of characters to root for is growing thin, and none of the new ones have really captured my attention (the last really great new character was Oberyn, who they killed off...)

Deanerys has been stick in her rather pointless Mereen storyline. Tyrions was in prison most of last season, here he's a depressed drunk...

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,351]

Game Of Thrones Season 5 Has a Dynamic Duo Problem

I understand where these guys are coming from, but frankly I will wait until the season is over before worrying too much about this stuff.

If anything, this is highlighting the problem with catching up the George RR Martin's books. If he had gotten his ass into gear and gotten Book 5 out sooner and then Book 6 before this season shot, I think things would have been better. Then again, B&W might be 100% informed on every plot point of Book 6; I dunno.

[Quintus 5,399]

I actually stopped watching for the time being. Since I realized i was only following it so I wouldn't have to worry about spoilers.

I'm not really in the mood for this kind of show right now.

You're not missing anything at all. Turgid show right now, nothing like it used to be. The latest episode was the most rambling and boring of the lot and as far as I'm concerned the writers can't overtake Martin soon enough.

[KK 3,307]

Really? The last episode was the best of the lot.

[Glóin the Dark 1,220]

Turgid show right now, nothing like it used to be.

Do you think it's being going downhill over the years, or that there's been a sudden drop this year?

[Quintus 5,399]

It's always been entertaining at the very least (and almost always riveting, actually) but tonight when I watched the most recent episode I was just bored. It's run out of steam, the momentum is utterly removed. So this season has been a massive drop. The quality feels greatly diminished to me compared to what came before.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Possibly.

Though you said pretty much the exact same thing last year.

I've been enjoying the Cersei/Margaery stuff, which has taken up unfortunately little time at this point.

The King's Landing material has had more time than any other thread this season (though not by as large a margin as we're used to from previous years). I guess that's not much consolation if you're bored by the stories up north and out east (which I personally am not).

Someone Has Done A Statistical Analysis Of Rape In Game Of Thrones

http://io9.com/someone-has-done-a-statistical-analysis-of-rape-in-game-1707037159

47 episodes in total, 50 acts of rape. Makes you wonder what we are watching for our entertainment sometimes.

Indeed.

Virtually all fictional entertainment involves placing characters in positions of danger, pain, misery to varying degrees of severity. Of course, readers/viewers will all have different levels of tolerance in relation to the severity, and the balance between pain and pleasure depicted. But I think it's a very serious matter when people (as many have been doing in relaion to Game of Thrones especially over the last couple of weeks) go beyond expressing their own distaste for certain types of fictitious scenario and begin to cast moral judgments on the creation of these fictions, or on the character of either the creators or the willing audience.

I had a fair idea what type of thing was in store in the first episode when the apparent protagonist and hero, in his second scene, beheaded a defenseless, frightened man.

It is a choice to show the beheadings, the slitting of a throats or rapes and when you have enough of those it might give some indication to what the makers of the show think will bring people to the seats each season. Certainly the series goes well beyond the call of duty with these titillating and shocking elements since the further we go the more they seem to add these elements to the series. Some people claim this is great because it feels or looks real. Martin's books present a disillusioned and very ugly but also a very realistic medieval setting that differs from the usually clean and ideal fantasy settings of countless authors when it comes to the daily struggle of people of all classes in a feudal system of powerful and the meek and while Martin's novels have a fair share of gruesome gore, torture and sex, it by now pales in comparison with the series. Perhaps it is the difference between the literary and film world, the written word and imagination and the modern film making. We seem to have been desensitized to both naked flesh and violence so there is no more possibility to hint at things, infer or indirectly tell of these aspects. You always have to show everything now as it is more gritty and "real" and thus automatically better, which I personally criticise and not only in this series but in movies and TV series in general.

And no I am not saying we all are mindless, blood hungry, violent, murderous, torture loving sex maniacs because we watch the series Gloin.

Even if the show didnt show as much blood and gore then it's moral tone would still be querstionable if one compares it to what is acceptable in western society today.

The most honest and decent and trustworthy man the show has ever had, Ned Stark, a man of uncompromising principles gets introduced in episode one by being shown beheading a man who ran away because he was scared.

[crocodile 8,006]

It's always been entertaining at the very least (and almost always riveting, actually) but tonight when I watched the most recent episode I was just bored. It's run out of steam, the momentum is utterly removed. So this season has been a massive drop. The quality feels greatly diminished to me compared to what came before.

It is a tad slow but all seasons were at this point. It might have more to do with novelty being worn off than anything else.

I actually like this seasons. fourth one bored me for the most part, given that it preserved status quo we already knew. At least here we're going to different places and tides seems to be turning on fortunes. Pieces on board are actually moving.

OK enough of those Gandalf paraphrases!

Karol

[Quintus 5,399]

The erratic structure and cast of uninteresting characters are what are killing it for me. There's still a couple to root for or to be intrigued by, but the charisma rich performances and motivations of previous seasons are mostly gone. I feel like arcs have ground to a halt or become spent, I'm not particularly bothered what happens to many of the characters anymore.

These are legitimate complaints I think. The apologists, fanboys and easily pleased need to give it a fucking rest; the show just isn't as eminently watchable as it once was.

I'm continuing on with it because I'm six seasons in and the opening pitch I absolutely want to see come to fruition. Martin's books just need to be pushed aside first in order for good tv to work again.

Possibly.

Though you said pretty much the exact same thing last year.

Bar two or three stupendously dramatic moments, I definitely think I did. And? The decline started even before that, as I recall.

[Jay 37,351]

HBO has released the title and synopsis for the final two episodes of Game of Thrones’ fifth season.

[Jay 37,351]

George RR Martin won't write a Season 6 script, either

[Glóin the Dark 1,220]

Still nothing happening...

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

Is it known what Stephen Warbeck had planned for the score before Djawadi replaced him?

[KK 3,307]

Jesus fucking Christ....that has got to be the most impressive sequence this show has put on yet.

[Wojo 2,453]

A pity to wait so long for the Blu-rays.

[mstrox 6,651]

Well that woke me up. Tyrion/Dani was great this week, too. Hopefully the rest of the plots pick up over the next two episodes in similar fashion (not in terms of violence, just in terms of "things happening"). That would be great)

[Glóin the Dark 1,220]

"What was that like, ruling without the rich? House Targaryen is gone...the Starks are gone as well...House Lannister will never back you...Stannis Baratheon will never back you either. That leaves the Tyrells: not impossible; not enough!"

I wonder if this explains the most (on the surface) aimless thread of the story this season.

And where will the two Houses which are apparently featured in the recent casting call figure in this scheme?

(Though, to be honest, the significance of such questions feels somewhat compromised by the events at the end of this episode...)

[Incanus 5,714]

Holy moly that was a magnificent episode!

I wasn't expecting them to throw such a big setpiece on us at this point. It was as KK said really some of the most impressive stuff they have done in this series thusfar. And it captured some of the true mythical spirit that lies behind the politicing and backstabbing of this story and the world Martin has created.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

What a setpiece! Brilliantly choreographed, visually arresting and several moments that just sent chills down their spine.

After all the endless teasing (both in the books and the show), it's finally gratifying to see a direct showdown between Jon and the Others.

The sparring between Tyrion and Daenerys was also great.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Glóin the Dark 1,220]

Frankly, I wished the entire episode had focused on Hardhome exclusively (and use the scene with Sam as an intro). It felt like the other storylines were mostly here to bring the episode to the 50-minute running mark. Most of what happened in them could have been kept for the 9th episode or presented earlier, in the 7th episode. The scenes with Arya and Cersei in particular didn't offer much and could have been pushed back to Episode 9.

Actually, this episode made it right up to the 60 minute mark (including opening and closing credits), so I doubt that they were just trying to fill up the time with other scenes. With the Arya and Cersei scenes, I think they might want to allow some space between these and the follow-ups to give the impression of time having passed. For example, Arya is supposed to spend a while stalking this insurance guy until she knows everything about his behaviour; assuming this mission plays out, it might be weird to have it culminate very shortly after being assigned.

I thought that dedicating a continuous half of one episode to this single set-piece was a decent compromise. Without the preceding material, they actually would have had to add in more Hardhome stuff to bring it up to the 50 minute mark, or somewhere close. As effective as both the negotiation scene and the battle both were, I didn't feel that either of them suffered from brevity. As it is, the whole segment feels compact, focused and intense.

It also differs from Blackwater and The Watchers on the Wall in having fewer established characters to play with, and much less variety in the way of locations/settings.

[Jay 37,351]

That was a freaking awesome episode!

Everything was awesome from start to finish!

Man, humanity if fucked if they can't team up against the White Walkers!

It's now clear more than ever what has to happen: Danaerys's dragons vs White Walkers in a big showdown for the fate of the world, with Bran in the mix warging one or all 3 of the dragons.

So did Jon's blade not shatter because it's made of dragonglass or because he's half Targaeryn or both?

[Glóin the Dark 1,220]

The Valyrian steel seems the most plausible explanation. Didn't he use at least one other sword which did shatter?

It's no[w] clear more than ever what has to happen: Danaerys's dragons vs White Walkers in a big showdown for the fate of the world, with Bran in the mix warging one or all 3 of the dragons.

But which side will Bran be on?!

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

WHOA.

Whoa.

Great to see Tyrion and Dany together. I really want Jorah to get himself back with her.

But who gives a shit about that because fucking whoa. A friend told me that this episode topped last year's battle at the wall. I didn't know what to expect and I'm so glad I didn't. But as soon as everyone turned around at that weird-ass noise... I knew.

It's so satisfying to finally have these elements coming to the fore.

That ending too. Immensely well done episode.

Man I am pumped up after watching that!

[Incanus 5,714]

The Valyrian steel seems the most plausible explanation. Didn't he use at least one other sword which did shatter?

It's no[w] clear more than ever what has to happen: Danaerys's dragons vs White Walkers in a big showdown for the fate of the world, with Bran in the mix warging one or all 3 of the dragons.

But which side will Bran be on?!

His own side as nobody has ever really been on his. And of course on the side of the Children of the Forest and life I guess.

And yes Valyrian steel is a substance which is resistant to the White Walkers (or the Others as the novels call them).

From the Wiki of Ice and Fire:

Being spell-forged steel, it is the spells and magic that make the steel special...

Valyrian steel was manufactured in the Valyrian Freehold with dragonfire before the freehold fell.Valyrian steel blades are lighter, stronger, and sharper than even the best castle-forged steel, and feature distinctive rippled patterns similar to Damascus steel, the mark of steel that has been folded back on itself many thousands of times.Most Valyrian steel blades in Westeros are treasured heirlooms of noble houses, each with its own name and storied history. Valyrian steel keeps its edge forever. Valyrian steel was always costly, but it became considerably more so when there was no more Valyria, the secret of its making lost with the Doom.

Only the greatest weaponsmiths can reforge swords from existing Valyrian steel, making those remaining weapons highly treasured and extremely rare. The blacksmiths of Qohor claim to know how to reforge Valyrian steel.

HOLY SHIT! Now that's more like it! It took us 7 and a half episodes to get there, but oh, boy, did they deliver!

Absolutely adored the very end of the episode. One of my favourite moments in the entire show!

Not to mention some of the finest and classiest fantasy stuff I have seen put on screen. The show treated the whole thing with respect and class which made it all the more powerful.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Fozmo 13]

BLOODY HELL that White Walker sequence. I can't remember the last time an action scene left me quite so stunned. It was pretty much perfectly paced from start to chilling finish.

It was kind of a blend of Army of Darkness and Starship Troopers!

[Jay 37,351]

Haha, yea it kinda was!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Glóin the Dark 1,220]

On 6/2/2015 at 5:37 AM, Incanus said:

His own side as nobody has ever really been on his.

 

 

On 6/2/2015 at 5:37 AM, Incanus said:

And of course on the side of the Children of the Forest and life I guess.

 

But I wonder if those are the same thing, per se, and if they really both are antithetical to the cause of the White Walkers. I still take George R. R. Martin at his word when he says:

 

Quote

Much as I admire Tolkien...there are things about it, the whole concept of the Dark Lord, and good guys battling bad guys, good versus evil, while brilliantly handled in Tolkien, in the hands of many Tolkien successors, it has become kind of a cartoon. We don't need any more Dark Lords, we don't need any more, "Here are the good guys, they're in white, there are the bad guys, they're in black. And also, they're really ugly, the bad guys."

 

We all have good in us and we all have evil in us, and we may do a wonderful good act on Tuesday and a horrible, selfish, bad act on Wednesday, and to me, thats the great human drama of fiction. I believe in gray characters, as Ive said before. We all have good and evil in us and there are very few pure paragons and there are very few orcs. A villain is a hero of the other side, as someone said once, and I think theres a great deal of truth to that, and thats the interesting thing. In the case of war, that kind of situation, so I think some of that is definitely what Im aiming at.

 

So if, all along, he's been writing a story in which the main threat is an utterly malicious army determined to exterminate life (and perhaps led by this "Night's King" - practically other words for "Dark Lord"), then George R. R. Martin has to be one of the biggest trolls out there!

 

On 6/2/2015 at 1:13 PM, BloodBoal said:

On a sidenote: it was a bit sad to see Birgitte Hjort Sørensen die shortly after being introduced. I know Once was proud that another Danish actor was in the show. He must be devastated.

 

You never know...she is still in the game at the end of the episode, after all, albeit with a somewhat different demeanour. Perhaps she'll become our first viewpoint wight, as we follow her and her colleagues on their epic journey all the way from Hardhome down to Sunspear.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,714]

His own side as nobody has ever really been on his.

And of course on the side of the Children of the Forest and life I guess.

But I wonder if those are the same thing, per se, and if they really both are antithetical to the cause of the White Walkers. I still take George R. R. Martin at his word when he says:

Much as I admire Tolkien...there are things about it, the whole concept of the Dark Lord, and good guys battling bad guys, good versus evil, while brilliantly handled in Tolkien, in the hands of many Tolkien successors, it has become kind of a cartoon. We don't need any more Dark Lords, we don't need any more, "Here are the good guys, they're in white, there are the bad guys, they're in black. And also, they're really ugly, the bad guys."

We all have good in us and we all have evil in us, and we may do a wonderful good act on Tuesday and a horrible, selfish, bad act on Wednesday, and to me, thats the great human drama of fiction. I believe in gray characters, as Ive said before. We all have good and evil in us and there are very few pure paragons and there are very few orcs. A villain is a hero of the other side, as someone said once, and I think theres a great deal of truth to that, and thats the interesting thing. In the case of war, that kind of situation, so I think some of that is definitely what Im aiming at.

So if, all along, he's been writing a story in which the main threat is an utterly malicious army determined to exterminate life (and perhaps led by this "Night's King" - practically other words for "Dark Lord"), then George R. R. Martin has to be one of the biggest trolls out there!

I think Martin's characters are very grey in their range of good and evil but behind it all there is clearly (take Melisandre's every other passage of dialogue) a battle of life VS death in purely these mythical terms going on in the world. You can say it is happening every day in Westeros and in this world of Ice and Fire but these primordial powers do manifest themselves in these antithetic powers of life and death, not necessarily good and evil but two opposing forces that battle over the world. One represents endless possibilities, freedom and change while the other seems to represent one-eyed (oh yes I used a Sauron metaphor here) uniform, unchanging existence under single will as all life will cease to exist and becomes suspended on the will of who ever is the opposing force behind the winter. Or that is how I see it.

[Jay 37,351]

I have a feeling the White Walkers are not the biggest threat north of the wall. I think they themselves could be heading south to avoid something bigger and scarier more north. Maybe the wall wasn't built to keep the White Walkers out, but to keep whatever this bigger threat is out.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,351]

I dunno. North of the wall is supposed to be HUGE, right? Like, nobody knows what is north too far beyond the First of the First Men or whatever? I doubt what he introduced in the prologue of the very first book is what he envisioned as being the biggest thing back there. But who knows.

BTW, whatever happened to that missing Stark uncle guy who went north of the wall at some point?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,351]

Is there a chance he's this Night King guy?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,351]

Ok.

[Brónach 1,302]

I have a feeling the White Walkers are not the biggest threat north of the wall. I think they themselves could be heading south to avoid something bigger and scarier more north. Maybe the wall wasn't built to keep the White Walkers out, but to keep whatever this bigger threat is out.

This would be hilarious.

[Jay 37,351]

Ice Spiders were mentioned in this new episode... how big are those things supposed to be?

[Glóin the Dark 1,220]

On 6/2/2015 at 2:05 PM, Incanus said:

I think Martin's characters are very grey in their range of good and evil but behind it all there is clearly (take Melisandre's every other passage of dialogue) a battle of life VS death in purely these mythical terms going on in the world. You can say it is happening every day in Westeros and in this world of Ice and Fire but these primordial powers do manifest themselves in these antithetic powers of life and death, not necessarily good and evil but two opposing forces that battle over the world. One represents endless possibilities, freedom and change while the other seems to represent one-eyed (oh yes I used a Sauron metaphor here) uniform, unchanging existence under single will as all life will cease to exist and becomes suspended on the will of who ever is the opposing force behind the winter. Or that is how I see it.

 

I can get behind the idea of opposing mythical forces, and if, say, the anti-life force was manifested by some non-sentient process then that wouldn't be inconsistent with what Martin said. But the White Walkers and the Night's King are clearly sentient guys doing their stuff deliberately and intelligently; as such, if their objective is the genuinely eradication or subjugation of all life, then I don't see any meaningful difference from a Dark Lord scenario.

 

Also worth bearing in mind is a George R. R. Martin comment reported by Elio Garcia (co-author of A World of Ice and Fire):

 

Quote

I am reminded that at the L.A. Worldcon in 2006, George was on a panel and he was talking a bit dismissively about the cookie-cutter fantasies with a Dark Lord that's the ultimate evil, wants to destroy the world, etc. and he said, you know, nothing is ever that black and white in reality, history's greatest villains and monsters were, from their own perspective, heroic, etc. And he basically said he didn't want to write about a Dark Lord sort of situation.

 

And so someone followed up asking, Well, what about the Others? They seem pretty clearly evil.

 

He paused and then smiled and said we'd have to keep reading to see where that goes.

 

It implied to me that, yes, there's more to the Others than what we've seen so far.

 

On 6/2/2015 at 2:43 PM, Jay said:

I have a feeling the White Walkers are not the biggest threat north of the wall. I think they themselves could be heading south to avoid something bigger and scarier more north. Maybe the wall wasn't built to keep the White Walkers out, but to keep whatever this bigger threat is out.

 

There's an unending sequence of races of increasingly scary creatures, each fleeing the one that comes after and convinced that the Wall was built to keep them out!

 

On 6/2/2015 at 2:48 PM, BloodBoal said:

Nope.

The Night's King is a very old character. Benjen is not.

 

That's assuming that the fellow at Hardhome is indeed the same "Night's King" of mythology, which he may or may not be...