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Indiana Jones 5 (James Mangold, July 29 2022)


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Mutt died on the way back to his home planet

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Unless the film is radically better than KOTCS, I can't see the score being any more inspired. I'm convinced Williams really needs some mythical, quasi-religious material for the McGuffin to write a strong theme.

 

I think Star Wars showed that resurrecting these old characters (like Han Solo) really only works if you surround them in an interesting situation with fresh new characters that bring the story to life. Much of TFA's energy stems from Rey, Finn and Kylo.

 

On paper the cast for KOTCS looked very strong, but Spielberg found a way to achieve the impossible and waste actors like John Hurt and Cate Blanchett in embarrassing fashion.

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The making-of is pretty revealing about what happened on the film. Spielberg clearly spent years disagreeing on all Lucas' shit ideas and tried to get a script that actually worked, but in the end Lucas was stubborn and refused to back down on the alien storyline.

 

In the end Spielberg had little choice; agree to Lucas' story or forget about ever making the film. He saw the opportunity to make a shitload of money while hanging out with a great mate for 5 months without even having to leave the US. Pretty easy (albeit artistically bankrupt) choice.

 

In fairness to the guy, he directed the hell out of the film's opening act but you can pinpoint the scene he remembers his total disinterest in directing these kinds of movies. Hint: it's around the time where Indy starts babbling on about Pancho Villa (describing an adventure easily more interesting than the film itself, a problem that plagued the Star Wars prequels) in a poorly dressed Universal backlot set.

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33 minutes ago, Michael said:

I don't know if I read it here or somewhere else, but someone suggested the idea of a noir Indy film more oriented in a mistery-type of situation and I would absolutely adore that, considering Ford's age and him being less able to jump around it would be a fantastic solution.


I actually really like that idea! I can see it now: 

Indiana Jones and the Bridge of Spies 

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1 hour ago, Nemesis said:

I just realized, that I'm probably the only one who loves the score for KOTCS.

 

3 minutes ago, Cerebral Cortex said:


I actually really like that idea! I can see it now: 

Indiana Jones and the Bridge of Spies 

Nope, I listen to it a lot. 

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4 hours ago, crumbs said:

Unless the film is radically better than KOTCS, I can't see the score being any more inspired. I'm convinced Williams really needs some mythical, quasi-religious material for the McGuffin to write a strong theme.

 

I think Star Wars showed that resurrecting these old characters (like Han Solo) really only works if you surround them in an interesting situation with fresh new characters that bring the story to life. Much of TFA's energy stems from Rey, Finn and Kylo.

 

On paper the cast for KOTCS looked very strong, but Spielberg found a way to achieve the impossible and waste actors like John Hurt and Cate Blanchett in embarrassing fashion.

 

Dude, good insights here!

1 hour ago, Nemesis said:

I just realized, that I'm probably the only one who loves the score for KOTCS.

Nope, I love it too.

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8 hours ago, crumbs said:

The making-of is pretty revealing about what happened on the film. Spielberg clearly spent years disagreeing on all Lucas' shit ideas and tried to get a script that actually worked, but in the end Lucas was stubborn and refused to back down on the alien storyline.

 

But isn't it sort of common knowledge now that it was Lucas who was the contrary pain in the arse of the three where storyline agreement was concerned? Ford and Spielberg both thought Frank Darabont's treatment was fabulous; yet Lucas threw it out mainly because there was no son character featured, or in other words, no lucrative link to a new series of movies about Mutt. 

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You can't really repurpose Darabont's script anymore. The unused action sequences, sure, but Koepp basically took Darabont's plot, diluted or removed every interesting idea it had and watered it down into generic Hollywood crap. I would be mortified if Spielberg goes near him for Indy 5, especially after the Mortdecai debacle. 

 

I just wish for another Indiana Jones film that explores its characters with moments of depth and intrigue, rather than garbage writing which only serves to move the film from one setpiece to another. Even the worst modern Bond film (Quantum of Solace) at least attempts to explore its main character and his flaws.

 

Darabont infused his script with unique character moments like Indy having a drunken epiphany inside his own museum. Marion and Oxley were also integrated into the story far more organically, rather than just randomly appearing in a tent.. because... uh, she was... kidnapped? Or ... something? I'm literally gobsmacked at how convoluted the entire backstory is to this segment of Koepp's plot; even after reading this ridiculous explanation on Wikipedia, I can't believe it passed Spielberg's stamp of approval. It makes no logical sense whatsoever:

 

Quote

Frustrated at Oxley's pointless rantings, she then forced Oxley to send Marion a letter which contained multiple drawings and written riddles in an extinct Incan dialect. The letter was deliberately designed to make no sense, in the hope of tricking Marion Ravenwood into traveling to Peru to investigate Oxley's strange actions. The trap worked, and the moment Marion arrived, Spalko’s men were ready to intercept her.

 

The second phase of the plan was to set up an opportunity for Ravenwood to temporarily escape and make quick contact with her son. Spalko knew that Marion would send the letter (which she still had in her possession) to America, in the hope that the boy would solve the mysterious writing and find the hidden location of the crystal skull: Spalko’s goal. This went exactly as imagined, and as soon as Marion was able to pass on what information was necessary for Mutt to investigate the message, Spalko had her men recapture Ravenwood.

 

However, Marion had pulled an unexpected stunt; she had advised Mutt to not only solve the riddles in Oxley's letter, but to seek out an old acquaintance of hers called Indiana Jones, a 'grave robber' who could help translate the writing and find the skull. Spalko was at first unaware of this detail, but when her agents stationed in Connecticut discovered that Jones had been enlisted by Mutt to help him, they instantly modified their plans to include Indiana as well. Now Indy would be captured along with the boy, and Mutt would be used as a bargaining chip to force Jones into finding the skull.

 

Seriously, when you need that much convoluted backstory just to explain why some unnecessary former character is needlessly integrated into your storyline, THEN YOU HAVE SERIOUS SCRIPT ISSUES! 

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Frustrated at Oxley's pointless rantings, she then forced Oxley to send Marion a letter which contained multiple drawings and written riddles in an extinct Incan dialect. The letter was deliberately designed to make no sense, in the hope of tricking Marion Ravenwood into traveling to Peru to investigate Oxley's strange actions. The trap worked, and the moment Marion arrived, Spalko’s men were ready to intercept her.

 

The second phase of the plan was to set up an opportunity for Ravenwood to temporarily escape and make quick contact with her son. Spalko knew that Marion would send the letter (which she still had in her possession) to America, in the hope that the boy would solve the mysterious writing and find the hidden location of the crystal skull: Spalko’s goal. This went exactly as imagined, and as soon as Marion was able to pass on what information was necessary for Mutt to investigate the message, Spalko had her men recapture Ravenwood.

 

However, Marion had pulled an unexpected stunt; she had advised Mutt to not only solve the riddles in Oxley's letter, but to seek out an old acquaintance of hers called Indiana Jones, a 'grave robber' who could help translate the writing and find the skull. Spalko was at first unaware of this detail, but when her agents stationed in Connecticut discovered that Jones had been enlisted by Mutt to help him, they instantly modified their plans to include Indiana as well. Now Indy would be captured along with the boy, and Mutt would be used as a bargaining chip to force Jones into finding the skull.

 

What the...

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1 hour ago, BloodBoal said:

 

What the...

 

My thoughts exactly. Was Marion SO NECESSARY to include in the film that it required a plot as convoluted as that to include her? This is all squarely on Koepp, too. If I remember correctly, Darabont simply had her married to a Colombian mafia boss and she entered the story naturally because Indy was seeking information on how to find Oxley.

 

Last Crusade kept the equivalent plotting so simple! They captured Indy's father because he knew where the holy grail was, but he sent his diary back to Indy before they captured him. Simple and straightforward, not even needing exposition to explain what's going on. The KOTCS backstory is just bafflingly confusing.

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I read the Darabont script and it's not like it was good, but it had some funny ideas and a whole bunch of silly ideas. Some of the silly ideas made it onto Koepp's script, like the elastic tree and the four waterfalls now reduced to three. Koepp's script does have Spalko, but sadly she does nothing, and her cool comes only after the fact from Blanchett and the costume department instead. Darabont's script is technically better written (in the way it's constructed and gives information and so on), but other than that is meh.

 

I don't understand Lucas' obsession with a son. I would have been cool with an older woman (maybe not Marion) or/and a young student of his going along for the ride. I don't remember the Oxley character working very well in both scripts.

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Well it was originally a daughter but Spielberg saw too many parallels to Malcolm's daughter in The Lost World (not hard to see the comparison, considering Mutt's fencing deus ex machine was godawful as Kelly's gymnastics subplot).

 

My question is did the film really even need to have a son/daughter character? It just seemed like a shameless attempt at creating a new franchise. It was all for nothing in the end anyway, as the films will inevitably be rebooted despite Spielberg's protestations. Darabont's third draft wisely omitted any son/daughter characters whatsoever and really helped focus the script.

 

Ultimately the characters in the film come to very little resolution to the revelation of Mutt being his son and there are no character arcs to be had for any of the 3 (Indy, Marion, Mutt). It feels like a complete afterthought, as if some studio executive said it would be cool to have Mutt be his son, but they had no time to implement the idea in any meaningful way. Compare Indy dealing with his son to Indy's arc with his dad in TLC and it's not hard to notice how significantly hollow Koepp's script is.

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Yeah, that's why I didn't say a daughter.

 

Koepp's script is so fragile, it barely holds together. Darabont's is corny as hell but at least more solid in that area. Theey ended up on a final script were they went from point A to B to C because! and everything felt shoehorned in. Too many cooks in the kitchen, maybe?

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Fuck getting married and having kids. Why do all these sequels eventually have to be some mind of passing of the torch with a newer generation continuing the story? Fuck the new generation. This ain't Star Trek. It's Indy. Give him his gun and have him go around shooting people.

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