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Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny (James Mangold, June 30 2023)


Joe Brausam

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1 hour ago, Yavar Moradi said:


There still is cross pollination with the old Expanded Universe — just look at Timothy Zahn’s Grand Admiral Thrawn, who was in some animated Star Wars and seems poised to appear in live action for Ahsoka!

 

NOTHING new happened with the Disney takeover — they only continued doing what Lucas did before them on the prequels: ignore any of the complicated/convoluted/labyrinthine book series unless there was an element they particularly liked.

 

And anyone who expected them to do anything else was being insanely unrealistic and unreasonable.

 

Yavar


There is indeed still cross-pollination although it is patently false to say nothing new happened.

 

Shortly after the Disney acquisition the EU was wiped completely from all canon tiers and relegated to a renamed Infinities tier called Legends where previous non-canon EU stories took place. This opened the door for a complete re-write of the expanded lore, with some pre-existing elements being reincorporated but without the surrounding context of the many novels and comics they previously existed across.

 

Then Lucasfilm themselves put out a statement saying that they were doing away with a tier system in favour of flattening the hierarchy. Future books/games would now hold the same level of canonicity as the OT, PT, TCW, and any future films to come. This is why you started seeing characters and elements that only existed in novels and comics start to pop up in the films and shows. Of course, keeping every published work in the same consistent canon is a logistical nightmare, and it lead to alienation of the more casual audience as well as creatively limiting what the films could do in certain periods.

 

So what was the solution then? Ironically, in everything but name alone, the system quietly shifted back to the EU tier system. Works like the A New Hope anthology series broke the idea of binary canon, featuring some stories that were considered ‘canon’ and others that weren’t. Films and shows started contradicting the published material implying that they had a higher level of canonicity again.

 

This is why it’s asinine to say that people just had ‘unrealistic expectations’ because all they were doing is expecting the company to do what they explicitly said they were going to do. It’s why the inconsistency in the canon is a greater fault post-Disney than pre-Disney because they made it one of their specific mission goals to unify the canon, whereas pre-Disney that was never a goal.

 

The grand irony of this all and the ultimate take-away is that the idea of achieving inter connectedness and cohesiveness through a unified canon is foolish, especially with something on the scope of Star Wars. Far greater cohesion and interconnectedness was actually achieved when there was a rigid tier system, and it’s night and day comparing the EU to the NU (New Universe aka the collection of post-Disney stories that replaced the previous EU)

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1 hour ago, Gabriel Bezerra said:

 

 Here's my go at it, couldn't isolate properly, but it is what it is.

 

 

 

Thank you for that. Now I can watch the trailer again without turning off the volume.

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8 hours ago, Thor said:

 

Thanks, Wamparat! I was just about to post an image from FATE OF ATLANTIS myself, since nobody gave any reaction whatsoever to my reference to that game's moon- and sundial elements. These young whippersnappers! ;)

 

Well now I feel bad about posting an Emperor's Tomb reference. :(

 

I've played Fate of Atlantis, but didn't finish it.  Last I remember, I got myself stuck at that very spot with the sundials, actually.

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2 hours ago, Cerebral Cortex said:

 

image.png

 

 

Is a trailer shown to the films director for approval typically? I guess it depends on their clout. I assume  Mangold completed the film and Disney’s marketing guys just went to town whilst he’s editing. And then they show it to him as a courtesy but perhaps the understanding is “this WILL be how we market your film” Just wondering how much input Mangold (or Spielberg for that matter)would have on a giant movies marketing/advertising.

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it is so sad seeing that almost the same years have passed between last crusade and kotcs and between kotcs and DoD. They could have made so many films when ford was younger…or even a old trilogy with one more film between 2008 and 2023….

 

indy must be one of the most wasted film characters ever.

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12 hours ago, Yavar Moradi said:

There still is cross pollination with the old Expanded Universe — just look at Timothy Zahn’s Grand Admiral Thrawn, who was in some animated Star Wars and seems poised to appear in live action for Ahsoka!

 

Even before that, he showed up in some of Lucas Arts' own SW video games. TIE Fighter at the very least. I always figured that would be enough to make him canon.

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6 hours ago, Luke Skywalker said:

it is so sad seeing that almost the same years have passed between last crusade and kotcs and between kotcs and DoD. They could have made so many films when ford was younger…or even a old trilogy with one more film between 2008 and 2023….

 

indy must be one of the most wasted film characters ever.

Agreed.
a couple of Indy films made in the  90s would have been pretty cool. 
 

Lucas refused to budge on Aliens all throughout the 90s. Spielberg and Ford didn’t want to use that McGuffin. Eventually in 1999, Frank Darabont produced a script with Aliens that Spielberg said “was one of the best scripts [he’d] read” (City of the Gods) Ford was down with it. And… 

Lucas didn’t like 🙄 Leading to more toiling. 
 

Funnily enough, a ton of elements from Darabont’s script ended up in KotCS. Just watered down and half baked. 
 

https://indiegroundfilms.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/indiana-jones-the-city-of-the-gods-nov-4-03.pdf

 

It’s worth a read. Who knows if it would have actually been a better movie in the end. It’s not a perfect script. But I feel like it would have been a tiny bit more satisfying for the characters return after almost two decades. 

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8 minutes ago, scallenger said:

I kind of love that Temple of Doom is such an outlier LOL

I was kinda hoping they’d go for the orange/red font for DoD, but that’s not a NEED for me. But I also love the Doom is the oddball of the family. 

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On 3/12/2022 at 12:30 PM, scallenger said:

I kind of love that Temple of Doom is such an outlier LOL


ToD is the only Indy sequel that tries to distance itself from Raiders.  That’s also what makes it the best Indy sequel.  This latest one looks no different, all throughout I’m sure we’ll be reminded how great Raiders was.

 

The new one, judging by the trailer, looks very dull visually.   The same monochromatic colorless look that all movies these days have.  Hopefully the finished film will not look so dreary and dull, but I’m not holding my breath on that…

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The trailer looks, I dunno, fine. The terrible trailerised version of the main theme really spoils it for me though, especially when tracking in some of the plentiful, ideally suited Indy music would clearly have been far preferable. These “epic”, slow versions of classic themes seem to suck all the energy out of trailers which is especially noticeable in something like Indy.

 

What’s interesting (well what I think is interesting lol) is that you have Raiders, the original, Temple of Doom, the darker follow up (prequel!) and then Last Crusade which feels like a nice conclusion to a trilogy that isn’t a continuous story. If they had then carried on making further episodes every five years or so that were just billed as the next instalment, they would have been judged accordingly. However, due to the significant gap between Last Crusade and Crystal Skull, the latter ends up being seen in a different context; the much belated sequel featuring the (maybe) final outing for a beloved character giving the feeling of being a bit of an outlier. The fact that it wasn’t great makes it feel even more so since it becomes that terrible sequel they should never have made. Alas I kinda feel the same could be true of Dial but at least there’s the hope that it’s a much more successful valedictory outing for Indy. But with Harrison Ford’s age having to be reflected and it being a different director, I think I’ll always see it as a second appendage to the original trilogy rather than the fifth movie in a continuous series (like, say, Bond films…).

 

(I appreciate a lot of that isn’t logical but there you have it…!)

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i really love the trailer now.

 

one of my favorite things about KOTCS was the reference to Indy running spy missions in WW II. 

 

Glad to see we're gonna see something to that nature here.  Imagine if Mac makes an appearance.  Highly doubtful with all the characters it seems like we're getting.  But goddamn Mac was the coolest character KOTCS added and they just ruined him.

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1 hour ago, Bellosh said:

i really love the trailer now.

 

one of my favorite things about KOTCS was the reference to Indy running spy missions in WW II. 

 

Glad to see we're gonna see something to that nature here.  Imagine if Mac makes an appearance.  Highly doubtful with all the characters it seems like we're getting.  But goddamn Mac was the coolest character KOTCS added and they just ruined that character.

Yeah. I’m probably responsible for about 1/4 of the views that trailer has gotten. I might be a tad excited. The mock-ups people have done with actual Williams score really help. 
 

I agree. Mac as an old war buddy who betrays Indy is a cool idea. Shame it was so undercooked.  It felt like they had just watched the Mummy ‘99 and decided to rip off the “Beni” character.

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18 minutes ago, Andy said:

When the title of ToD comes up with Willie blocking it (cause you already know the title, dummy) and the horns swell up in that eastern exotic way, I get chills every single time.  

One of my favorite things about Doom's opening is seeing grown adults talk about how when their parents took them to go see it as a kid, they thought the theater played the wrong movie or they walked into the wrong theater because of the dramatic and over the top opening:lol:

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1 hour ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

 

I've heard this before, but it feels almost apocryphal to me. "Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom" appears literally in the first 30 seconds of the movie, which would seem to be a pretty strong indication that you were watching an Indiana Jones movie.  I mean, the title card shows up before the musical number even starts.

Never underestimate human stupidity.*

 

*I deliberately left the antecedent vague.  

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1 hour ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

 

I've heard this before, but it feels almost apocryphal to me. "Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom" appears literally in the first 30 seconds of the movie, which would seem to be a pretty strong indication that you were watching an Indiana Jones movie.  I mean, the title card shows up before the musical number even starts.

I understand, Idk how they got confused either:lol:

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If this movie plays out like the rumors of test screenings say it does, not only will I not watch it, I'll watch in glee how it bombs and Lucasfilm goes up in flames.

You can cut off d*cks and tailor to a tiny fraction of not-even-fans only for so long until reality says "na-ah, yo broke".

 

This era in 15 years will be remebered as revisionist cinema.

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1 minute ago, TolkienSS said:

If this movie plays out like the rumors of test screenings say it does, not only will I not watch it, I'll watch in glee how it bombs and Lucasfilm goes up in flames.

What do the rumors say?

They didn't like it?

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2 minutes ago, TolkienSS said:

If this movie plays out like the rumors of test screenings say it does, not only will I not watch it, I'll watch in glee how it bombs and Lucasfilm goes up in flames.

 

got any non spoiler links or quotes about it?

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10 hours ago, TolkienSS said:

If this movie plays out like the rumors of test screenings say it does, not only will I not watch it, I'll watch in glee how it bombs and Lucasfilm goes up in flames.

You can cut off d*cks and tailor to a tiny fraction of not-even-fans only for so long until reality says "na-ah, yo broke".

 

This era in 15 years will be remebered as revisionist cinema.

Do you honestly believe the bullshit random people post online? You sound pre-emptively and oddly gleeful about made up rumors.

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I've had someone try to actually twist Mangold saying that Indy won't be replaced to mean that he simply won't be taken out in a contrived manner, which is just a whole lot of mental gymnastics to take on something that honestly isn't particularly complicated English. I can understand getting frustrated with current Lucasfilm, but you might as well admit you actively want these projects to fail now, no matter if the reasoning actually makes much sense.

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I am intrigued as to what JW was referring to when he mentioned there was a new ending to shoot for this. That does kind of suggest that maybe there have been test screenings, or maybe the rumours were true and they have seen the backlash (the rumours don´t bother me, it is just a film after all). Anyway, it seems a bit weird to reshoot the ending of a film 9 months after you wrapped. I was optimistic about this film, but that has set alarm bells off. 

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I think it sounds bigger than it probably is. I doubt that they change the story at this point. Probably a minor reshoot which will amount to a perhaps 20 seconds in the finished film. And Williams probably just has to adapt  the existing material a bit. Nice, that they don't solve it by the usual hacking up of the soundtrack and copy/paste.

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Reshoots are incredibly common in any movie that has the budget to do them, and they’re built in to the schedule.  They’re used to change things that aren’t working as well as they want in the edit, present ideas in a different way, etc.  This should not set off alarm bells for anyone (or at least not any more alarm bells than “Harrison Ford doing another Indiana Jones movie in his 80s” does).  If there weren’t reshoots, they’d just flop the movie out as-is like many movies have to.

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