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Indiana Jones 5 (James Mangold, June 30 2023)


Joe Brausam

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45 minutes ago, Fabulin said:

Northern-type European mythology invites a bit of Wagnering too.

 

Williams had barely heard any Wagner; he doesn't like his dramas.

 

Has something to do with him trying to watch the Ring cycle without a grasp of German. Go figure...

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20 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Has something to do with him trying to watch the Ring cycle without a grasp of German.

 

Without a grasp of masochism, more like.

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I personally think Das Rheingold is quite accessible, provided there's subtitles, and then you just gradually get into the other ones. Some might prefer to start with something like Dutchman or Lohengrin.

 

And then of course there's Tristan...

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1 hour ago, Fabulin said:

Northern-type European mythology invites a bit of Wagnering too.

 

I wonder if the film might center around Nordic mythology? Seems like an area Hollywood hasn't really bothered to explore (by comparison, the relics of Egyptian mythology have been comprehensively exhumed).

 

Although how any of this ties into

Spoiler

NASA, Nazis and the space race

has me buggered.

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59 minutes ago, crumbs said:

 

I wonder if the film might center around Nordic mythology? Seems like an area Hollywood hasn't really bothered to explore (by comparison, the relics of Egyptian mythology have been comprehensively exhumed).

 

 

  Hide contents

 

 

 

That'd be awesome! 

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Against my better judgement, I kinda dig the direction they seem to be taking with this

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2 hours ago, crumbs said:

Although how any of this ties into

  Reveal hidden contents

has me buggered.

There is always the possibility of an introductory mini-adventure.

 

Or the former rumours might be a red herring to some degree.

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I guess the films tend to be a bit bi-polar in that respect anyway. Before KOCS, the artifact in the opening teaser had little to do with the major plot artifact or story (though it might inform it thematically, or introduce characters that become important later).

 

You'd have a totally warped impression of Temple of Doom's plot if all you knew about was the nightclub dance sequence, a Shanghai car chase, a rare diamond, Indy being poisoned, and the ashes of a long-dead Chinese emperor.

 

I'd love to see an opening teaser with some absurdly convoluted action scene during one of the Apollo launches (naturally, a baddie ends up trapped underneath the launch pad during the launch, complete with a classic JW countdown cue before the fire erupts).

 

It's such a fun time period for an Indy film to be set, all things considered.

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LXG is one of the only movies I’ve seen where I’ve wanted to walk out of a theater.  I didn’t, but I wanted to!  And I saw it for free at the time, so there was no financial incentive for leaving early.

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6 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Has something to do with him trying to watch the Ring cycle without a grasp of German. Go figure...

 

Well it makes sense, the only German I know is: Achtung!... eine Kugel kam geflogen, da steht ein Lindenbaum.

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Is there any news on other potential filming locations apart from the UK?

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I have the same question.I really hope they're filming in other countries! They're so close to exotic locations throughout North Africa and Europe, it would be a waste if they just filmed everything at Pinewood.

 

They might as well have stayed in LA if they weren't intending to travel internationally, so I'm quietly confident they relocated to Pinewood for good reason.

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I'm officially excited and nervous at the same time for this.

 

But it begins.

 

It's finally happening.

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I have to admit, despite my better judgement, I'm starting to get more interested in this than I thought I'd be.  And this is something I know for a fact would not be the case if Spielberg were directing.

 

-Nick 1066, who is slowly moving from cynical scepticism to cautious optimism about Indy 5.

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9 minutes ago, Nick1066 said:

despite my better judgement, I'm starting to get more interested in this than I thought I'd be.

 

Et tu quoque, Nick?

 

I'm conceptually uninterested in an action-adventure film where the action hero is 80-years-old.

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9 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Et tu quoque, Nick?

 

I'm a reasonably educated man, but this f*cking heat must be making me crazy. I have no idea what you're getting at here.

 

9 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

I'm conceptually uninterested in an action-adventure film where the action hero is 80-years-old.

 

I'm guessing then you're not big on Aragorn bits in LOTR then? ;)

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On 6/2/2021 at 1:55 PM, Jurassic Shark said:

What has Ford done to his face? Botox and fillers?

More like life and plane crashes

I wish it were set during the late 2010's. Most of Indy's entourage has died. Indy has lived this long because he chose wisely and the cup has extended his life to the here and now.

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6 minutes ago, Nick1066 said:

I'm guessing then you're not big on Aragorn bits in LOTR then? ;)

Movie Aragorn is just 35, while movie Frodo and Sam are in their early 20s.

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10 minutes ago, Nick1066 said:

I'm a reasonably educated man, but this f*cking heat must be making me crazy

 

Heat?! You're from Oxford! I live five-hours drive from Wadi Rum!

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5 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

Heat?! You're from Oxford! I live five-hours drive from Wadi Rum!

 

Yeah but it's a dry heat.

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2 minutes ago, Nick1066 said:

Yeah but it's a dry heat.

 

No, its not - I'm ten minute drive from the coast of the Mediterannean! 

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OK, I split out the discussion of the on-set photos into it's own thread here:

 

https://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/topic/33870-indiana-jones-5-spoilers-set-photos-thread/

 

Keep in mind some people want to know as little as possible about the film before seeing it when you're in this thread.  Thanks!

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I gotta say, Raiders is one of my favorite movies of all time, BUT... the dialogue between Marion and Indy on Nepal, where she implies she was a minor when they first met is, well, a little uncomfortable to say the least. 

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Remember, people got married at a much younger age at times back then than they do now, as young as 14 or 15 sometimes, more often than not the bride.

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25 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

the dialogue between Marion and Indy on Nepal, where she implies she was a minor when they first met is, well, a little uncomfortable to say the least. 

 

Lucas was the one pushing for a big age difference, with Marion having been 12-15 when a 25-year-old Indy got it on with her.

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4 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Lucas was the one pushing for a big age difference, with Marion having been 15 when a 25-year-old Indy got it on with her.

Wierd choice by Lucas. But then again, in Star Wars Han is a lot older than Leia, so... I think Lucas is into relationships with a big age gap?

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I think he was just thinking of ways to make Indy's character rough around the edges. But then, it was also his suggestion to only hint at this - he wasn't completely off of his rocker there. 

 

Here's the bit of the story conference:

 

Quote

George Lucas — I was thinking that this old guy could have been his mentor. He could have known this little girl when she was just a kid. [adds facetiously] Had an affair with her when she was eleven.

Lawrence Kasdan — And he was forty-two.

George Lucas — He hasn't seen her in twelve years. Now she's twenty-two. It's a real strange relationship.

Steven Spielberg — She had better be older than twenty-two [in the film].

George Lucas — He's thirty-five, and he knew her ten years ago when he was twenty-five and she was only twelve. It would be amusing to make her slightly young at the time.

Steven Spielberg — And promiscuous. She came onto him.

George Lucas — Fifteen is right on the edge. I know it's an outrageous idea, but it is interesting. Once she's sixteen or seventeen it's not interesting anymore. But if she was fifteen and he was twenty-five and they actually had an affair the last time they met. And she was madly in love with him and he...

Steven Spielberg — She has pictures of him.

George Lucas — There would be a picture on the mantle of her, her father, and him. She was madly in love with him at the time and he left her because obviously it wouldn't work out. Now she's twenty-five and'she's been living in Nepal since she was eighteen. It's not only that they like each other, it's a very bizarre thing, it puts a whole new perspective on this whole thing. It gives you lots of stuff to play off of between them. Maybe she still likes him. It's something he'd rather forget about and not have come up again. This gives her a lot of ammunition to fight with.

Steven Spielberg — In a way, she could say, "You've made me this hard."

George Lucas — This is a resource that you can either mine or not. It's not as blatant as we're talking about. You don't think about it that much. You don't immediately realize how old she was at the time. It would be subtle. She could talk about it. "I was jail bait the last time we were together." She can flaunt it at him, but at the same time she never says, "I was fifteen years-old."' Even If we don't mention it, when we go to cast the part we're going to end up with a woman who's about twenty-three and a hero who's about thirty-five.

 

You can see two things right away: the first is that while Lucas does most of the talking, he nevertheless DIDN'T have the whole story in his head - he's coming up with this on the spot (this being his second idea for Marion, having first suggested she should be a femme fatale) and figuring things up with Spielberg and Kasdan. So its not right to say that the story of Indiana Jones is Lucas' creation - it was very much a shared enterprise. As the conversation goes on, Kasdan starts feeling more comfortable and takes a more active part in the conversation.

 

The second is that this myth about Lucas being held back by his collaborators is the stuff of legend: Spielberg seems to be entirely on Lucas' wavelength here (if anything, he's pushing it further), and while Kasdan maybe slightly incredulous of the whole thing, he's nevertheless going along with it.

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Guess it was inevitable in the 'current climate' that that bit of Raiders would come under scrutiny ... it's a 40 year old movie set in a time 40 years before THAT, but 'it was a different time' doesn't seem to cut much ice with certain types. 

Next it'll be that the Nazis are treated too harshly in it, and should've been sent to bed with a slap on the wrist and no supper instead of exploding/melting/being filleted by a propeller etc.    

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Look, I don't want to be that easily offended millenial who cancels everything released before 2010 and such... But the sexual abuse of minors is something I simply don't tolerate.

 

Believe me, one of my friends is a survival of abuse, and all I can say is that it's a horrible crime. One of the worst things that can happen to a person. It's a trauma very hard to forget.

 

And you can't use the "but it was another era!" argument because this was also condemned back in the 80s. The Roman Polanski controversy happened a few years before the release of Raiders.

 

I still love the movie and I don't want to cancel it. I just think that Indy having met Marion when she was a minor is a pretty bad attempt to make the character edgier that don't work like Lucas wanted to.

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1 minute ago, Nick1066 said:

Is there anything in the film, to indicate how old Marion was at the time?

"I was a child, I was in love. It was wrong and you knew it!"

"You knew what you were doing."

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Indy was born in 1899 and Marion was born in 1909


The incident they talk about happened in 1925 when Indy was 25-26 and Marion was 15-16


Raiders takes place in 1936 when Indy is 36-37 and Marion is 26-27

 

When they get married in Indy 4, that's in 1957 when Indy is 57-58 and Marion is 47-48

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Yeah but the film never states her age. That's what's important when looking at this situation, give that we're not talking about real people.

 

I looked it up. The age of consent in Illinois was 16 at the time. So unless Marion was 15 or younger (FWIW Karen Allen considered her 16 when their relationship occurred), and there's nothing in the film to indicate that, at a minimum Jones isn't guilty of statutory rape. You can say relationship still would have been "wrong" in a moral sense even if she was 16, given both her age and the age gap. But it wouldn't have been unusual for the time. And in any event not illegal.
 

That said, certainly the way Lucas describes it in those script sessions is sleazy (and perhaps criminal) and it would have been better had they not included the suggestion at all. Honestly I don't know how Lucas (or Spielberg, who seemed to be going along with it) could have thought this is any way would make Indiana a more appealing character. But given that her age (or Indiana's age for that matter) is never stated in the film, I don't feel the need to engage in virtue signalling in 2021 and assume Indiana Jones is a rapist.

 

 

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