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Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny (James Mangold, June 30 2023)


Joe Brausam

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4 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

I've just seen an A/B Blu/4K, on YouTube. It looks pretty good, in 4K. Skin tones are far more real, and it's lost its overall redness.

I have a vague memory of the original Blu ray looking "off" from my impression of watching the film in the theaters/DVD

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3 hours ago, Not Mr. Big said:

I have a vague memory of the original Blu ray looking "off" from my impression of watching the film in the theaters/DVD

You actually paid to watch this?!

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, crumbs said:

Here's hoping Indy 5 is a bit more faithful to the original trilogy.

I'll settle for "good".

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On 18/08/2022 at 12:39 PM, Brando said:

Ants is one of the most perfect cues for Skull. The opening of the cue sounds like what it feels like to have ants crawling all over you.

Still find amusing that it was used in Fallen Order, one of major "references" from other Williams projects.

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15 hours ago, Gabriel Bezerra said:

Still find amusing that it was used in Fallen Order, one of major "references" from other Williams projects.

 

Wait, what?

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1 hour ago, toothless said:

 

 

It cannot solve the screenplay but that 4K release at least solved one major issue with the movie and it's way more acceptable look-wise now.

Oh wow, it looks so much more better. I’ve only ever seen the dvd release of it and I’m holding out for a 4K set with all 5 movies, so it’ll be a little while before I can enjoy it this way. But it looks really good!

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Yep!!!! That’s it precisely. 

10 minutes ago, crocodile said:

 it never really feels like a coherent story that ties characters, plot and themes into any sort of whole. It's just a string of ideas from various writers clumsily jumbled together.


Here is a rarely seen photo of David Koepp writing the script, unaware of its lack of connectedness. 
 

68675B09-8CF2-4EDF-82E5-EC443B0327FC.jpeg

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Actually, Koepp spoke about his experiences recently and he's not too fond of it either. But then, he was just a hired hand who was asked to put it together from pre-existing pieces decided on by others.

 

Karol

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That’s interesting to hear, but I’m sure he’d be more  fond of it if it was well received, perhaps willing to overlook circumstances that are unappealing for a script writer. 

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1 hour ago, crocodile said:

Actually, Koepp spoke about his experiences recently and he's not too fond of it either. But then, he was just a hired hand who was asked to put it together from pre-existing pieces decided on by others.

 

Karol

 

Wasn't Frank Darabont involved early on and have a draft rejected or something? 

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13 hours ago, Andy said:

While on the topic of the finales, I’ll take the opportunity to say I think the End Credits suite of KOTCS is flipping fantastic, and easily the highlight of the entire score.   When I saw it in the theater and the familiar Raiders March began to diverge from expectation and incorporate the Mutt motifs, my brother and I turned to each other and our jaws dropped.  I still get chills over the dramatic brassy end coda too. 

I like it, but also not: sort of like Williams telling me "I know what kind of music you would like me to compose, and I can damn well do it without much effort, but I am not going to do it (other than this one-minute tease to prove that I can)."

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2 hours ago, Andy said:

While on the topic of the finales, I’ll take the opportunity to say I think the End Credits suite of KOTCS is flipping fantastic, and easily the highlight of the entire score.   When I saw it in the theater and the familiar Raiders March began to diverge from expectation and incorporate the Mutt motifs, my brother and I turned to each other and our jaws dropped.  I still get chills over the dramatic brassy end coda too. 

That brief snippet of music is the most original and refreshing music in the entire score. It was like a glimpse of what could have been.

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10 hours ago, crocodile said:

Actually, Koepp spoke about his experiences recently and he's not too fond of it either. But then, he was just a hired hand who was asked to put it together from pre-existing pieces decided on by others.


Interestingly that’s the job Nicholas Meyer got handed when he took on Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. ;) 

 

Yavar

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One early authentic American hari kari knife.

Pass it around, boys, maybe somebody's got a use for it.

ROTFLMAO

 

@Nick1Ø66, I'd take Slim Pickens dropping boots into the toilet of a Japanese submarine, over very bad cgi monkeys, any day.

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1 hour ago, crumbs said:

The ultimate problem with KOCS is that it's aggressively mediocre.

Yes. Maybe even militantly mediocre. It never colors outside the lines. That’s my problem with a lot of things. This most recent Rings of Power score included.

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1 minute ago, crumbs said:

 

Check out Thirteen Lives. I was rather impressed with his tension building there. Overall though Spielberg's the better director, though he has his misses.

 

KOCS is like a tug-of-war between Lucas wanting something totally fresh and unexpected for Indy 4, then Spielberg wanting to dial it back and play it safe. The result was a four-quadrant, haphazard mess. In hindsight he probably should've embraced the absurdity and run with it, in the same way TOD embraces cults, voodoo dolls, demonic possession and slave children.

 

Then again, the way everyone complains about the nuke/fridge scene being the worst part of KOCS, maybe he was damned whatever direction he took. I'd argue the first act is classic Indiana Jones, then it takes a serious nosedive once they reach Peru.

I also like the opening act.  I have problems with the diner/university scenes, but that is because they put every idiomatic 50's expression they could think of in it.  You don't need to scream "we are in the 50s."  The other films do a nice job of using the 30s as a backdrop but without the cringeworthy speech.  I really hope V has the 60s as the backdrop but without continual uses of words like "groovy," otherwise it too will be cringeworthy.  

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5 minutes ago, crumbs said:

KOCS is like a tug-of-war between Lucas wanting something totally fresh and crazy for Indy 4, and Spielberg wanting to dial it back and play it safe.

 

I always find these "picking apart the creative team to find the party to blame" discussions very reductive. We need a far better understanding to who concieved of each creative choice taken in the script, and who wrote what, before we can start to construct such a narrative.

 

Its just a movie that (1) was in some ways a doomed enterprise from the outset and (2) had - for whatever reason - things go astray in the creative process.

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8 minutes ago, Tom said:

I have problems with the diner/university scenes, but that is because they put every idiomatic 50's expression they could think of in it.  You don't need to scream "we are in the 50s." 

 

Agreed, the film hits viewers over the head about the time period when it was just the backdrop in past films. Don't mind the Elvis opening but that was all we needed to establish the setting. Following it up with a bunch of 50's cliches was unnecessary.

 

7 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

I always find these "picking apart the creative team to find the party to blame" discussions very reductive. We need a far better understanding to who concieved of each creative choice taken in the script, and who wrote what, before we can start to construct such a narrative.

 

If you follow the various scripts and interviews, it's not hard to decipher who was responsible for what.

 

It's patently obvious Spielberg hated the idea of aliens while Lucas loved it, which is ultimately why the film feels like a tug of war between two competing visions.

 

We can all make our own judgements about what was successful or not from there.

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2 minutes ago, crumbs said:

If you follow the various scripts and interviews, it's not hard to decipher who was responsible for what.

 

It's patently obvious Spielberg hated the idea of aliens while Lucas loved it, which is ultimately why the film feels like a tug of war between two competing visions.

 

 

Do we have all the drafts available to us? My memory is that we don't.

 

And yes, we do know Lucas and Spielberg butted heads about the alien idea, and while I don't particularly like it in the film, its far, far from the movie's biggest shortcoming.

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22 minutes ago, crumbs said:

Overall Spielberg's the better director, though he has his misses.

 

He is not *overall* the better director, but one of America's greatest film directors ever, warts and all. I will not piss on Ron Howard, who is - or better, can be - a competent guy, but he certainly never aspired to such lofty throne.

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13 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

Do we have all the drafts available to us? My memory is that we don't.

 

And yes, we do know Lucas and Spielberg butted heads about the alien idea, and while I don't particularly like it in the film, its far, far from the movie's biggest shortcoming.

 

There's at least 3 drafts available from different writers, plus the finished product. Pair that with all the interviews and it's enough to piece the puzzle together.

 

No disagreements on your second statement; aliens are the least of the film's problems. It's funny how everyone gets so fixated on that but ignores the horrendous dialogue, stilted performances, flat comedy, stagnant plotting, lack of practical locations, etc.

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One thing about KOTCS that I have always found very affecting, is the relationship between Oxley, and Mutt. One can tell, from Mutt reactions, that he clearly loves Oxley, and, for me, that is emotional centre of the film, and not Jones and Marian.

KOTCS could have been not only a good Indiana Jones film, but a great film, in its own right, but it seems that it was comprised, from the start.

Perhaps, as some JWfaners have suggested, they should have embraced the madness, and called the film (as it was rumoured to be) INDIANA JONES AND THE SAUCER MEN FROM MARS.

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1 hour ago, crumbs said:

 

Check out Thirteen Lives; I was rather impressed with his tension building there.

 

Overall Spielberg's the better director, though he has his misses.

 

 

Well Spielberg is the better director, period, especially in his prime. But Howard reminds me of latter stage Spielberg...a technically proficient, efficiency-driven director capable of getting some good performances from his actors while putting out competent, well-made films that are otherwise uninspiring and mostly forgettable.

 

The difference is, before he got to this stage, Spielberg had an entire career of making some of the best films in cinematic history, including a good number of bona fide Hollywood classics. Howard doesn't have such laurels to rest on. I don't know if Howard has made a particularly bad film, the problem is he hasn't made a particularly great one either. He's the Salieri of film directors.

 

That said, Thirteen Lives is a film I'm interested in, so I'll check it out!

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, crumbs said:

The ultimate problem with KOCS is that it's aggressively mediocre.


68D45B59-D28A-453A-9201-3044049D3330.jpeg

 

 

49 minutes ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

One thing about KOTCS that I have always found very affecting, is the relationship between Oxley, and Mutt. One can tell, from Mutt reactions, that he clearly loves Oxley, and, for me, that is emotional centre of the film, and not Jones and Marian.


Yes. People have a tough time separating their hate for Shia, but he gives a good performance of a kid trying hard to keep his cool, but truly wracked with worry for his father figure. 
 

But then it has no payoff, and is completely sabotaged by having Oxley unlikable and nuts.  Do Mutt and he ever get a coherent moment together?  

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20 hours ago, Chen G. said:

And yes, we do know Lucas and Spielberg butted heads about the alien idea, and while I don't particularly like it in the film, its far, far from the movie's biggest shortcoming.

 

Yeah, the alien thing (which was solely George's idea) is awful, from conception to execution. But that said, it only really becomes a plot thing in, what, the last 5 minutes of the film? It would almost be forgivable if everything leading up to it wasn't equally bad. As for the Skull itself, it's kind of a lame McGuffin, but the McGuffin itself really doesn't matter that much in these films.

 

The real problem with Indiana Jones and the Crystal Skull however is Spielberg's utter disinterest and lack of passion for a project that he really didn't really want to do anyway, and it shows on the screen. But it was either George's dopey idea or nothing, and he & Ford finally relented.

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