Why has film music hit rock bottom?

[Charlie Brigden 7]

The thing is that the crappy foreign and indie films generally don't get distribution, along with a lot of really good foreign and indie movies. The foreign ones in particular occasionally sneak through, and when they build up word of mouth America remakes them (as with 'Let Me In') so people don't have to read subtitles.

Whereas your average Ashton Kutcher romcom gets six multiplex screens.

[Brónach 1,302]

Hear, hear!

I couldn't get to see Moon at a theater. That was annoying.

I think the current situation of big-budgeted films is due to the studios not willing take risks for some reason. Take what just happened to Guillermo del Toro's intended take on At the Mountains of Madness. The same iss happening to film music. People here said it would be cool to have a score-less Superman, but are they going to try things like that? NO! It will have a score, it doesn't matter how bad is it, because big budget movies have scores! If you want to do a bid budget film, it won't contain adult overtones! It won't contain reflections on philosophycal stuff! You won't be allowed to be artsy! You'll have to please every possible demographic! You won't be allowed to care about research! It will have to have a love story! You won't be allowed to be offensive and thought-provoking! Your film won't be long! It needs to have action, nevermind how badly shot it is! etc

[gkgyver 1,645]

There's one thing we should be happy about : when you've hit the bottom, you can only go up...

unless you find a way to go deeper, of course.

How long did it take you to come up with those words of wisdom?

Or maybe 'why blockbusters have hit rock bottom?' would be more spot on.

Well, the next movie I'm looking forward to is Godzilla 2012, so I guess that is a valid question.

[Ollie 1,059]

Apparently del Toro is going to attempt his own monster film, called Pacific Rim.

After reading the synopsis, it's not very original for the most part.

http://www.newsinfilm.com/2011/03/10/details-on-guillermo-del-toros-pacific-rim/

[Wojo 2,453]

Great title for a porno.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[gkgyver 1,645]

Apparently del Toro is going to attempt his own monster film, called Pacific Rim.

After reading the synopsis, it's not very original for the most part.

http://www.newsinfilm.com/2011/03/10/details-on-guillermo-del-toros-pacific-rim/

Like the 29th Godzilla movie is terribly original?

[Kevin 22]

Apparently del Toro is going to attempt his own monster film, called Pacific Rim.

After reading the synopsis, it's not very original for the most part.

http://www.newsinfilm.com/2011/03/10/details-on-guillermo-del-toros-pacific-rim/

Like the 29th Godzilla movie is terribly original?

Or Eragon...

[Wojo 2,453]

Eragon's based on a book.

[Kevin 22]

Eragon's based on a book.

Which is based on every fantasy/prophecy story to date.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Since when has an orchestra ever emulated synth? Isn't it the other way around?

Most of Hans Zimmer and his RMC gang's scores have.

Really, for me at least, the key to integrating synths successfully with acoustic instruments is to treat the synth as it's own instrument. This means giving it it's own independent part in the textures, in regards to the timbre it's producing, et all, as opposed to merely doubling acoustic lines and trying to mimic their timbre in order to "beef up" the sound.

Agreed entirely.

RE: Datameister. I wouldn't say Williams use synths injects a megaload of steroids into an orchestra, the way Zimmer does. He simply gives the wind and string parts an edge. Either a dreamlike or eerie quality.

[Thor 7,490]

Since when has an orchestra ever emulated synth? Isn't it the other way around?

Most of Hans Zimmer and his RMC gang's scores have.

Not really. The classic MV/RC sound just used orchestra (both acoustic and sampled) as colourization in an expression that can best be compared to prog rock or certain variants of instrumental electronic concept albums. Direct chord changes etc. It didn't try to "emulate" synth.

[Maglorfin 196]

Probably this will cause a facepalm or two to be posted, but until yesterday, I never heard and knew of the following:

In June 2006, agents representing the estate of composer Gustav Holst (1874–1934) filed a lawsuit claiming that Zimmer plagiarized material from The Planets. Specifically, "The Battle" was believed to plagiarize Holst's "Mars, the bringer of war". The Track "Barbarian Horde" reprises most of these themes.

I mean, of course I've heard a million times about The Planets' plagiarizing (heard it myself the first time I listened to the CD 10 years ago ) but I didn't have any idea that he was sued for it. Anybody knows what came out of it?

[Brónach 1,302]

I always thought that it was more of a "hey, it's Romans in a battle, lets put some Mars in the cue" than your typical plagiarism.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Yes, Zimmer thanked Holst in the CD I believe. The foundation just wanted money. I mean, they only realized 6 years later...

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Since when has an orchestra ever emulated synth? Isn't it the other way around?

Most of Hans Zimmer and his RMC gang's scores have.

Not really. The classic MV/RC sound just used orchestra (both acoustic and sampled) as colourization in an expression that can best be compared to prog rock or certain variants of instrumental electronic concept albums. Direct chord changes etc. It didn't try to "emulate" synth.

Fancy bullshitting aside, that is emulating a synthesiser. You've just said it. Stiff, metronomic rhythms; minimal expression from the players; simplistic 'direct chord changes' etc...

Even Zimmer himself admitted it in a fan video interview for Inception.

[Kevin 22]

I always thought that it was more of a "hey, it's Romans in a battle, lets put some Mars in the cue" than your typical plagiarism.

It said "Romans go home".

[gkgyver 1,645]

The lawsuit against Zimmer is a story with a beard that is long enough to tie earth to the moon.

[Joe Brausam 214]

The Holst estate always seems to be very protective of it's intellectual property.

[crocodile 8,000]

Yes, Zimmer thanked Holst in the CD I believe.

Nope. But he thanks J.S. Back, Gustav Mahler, Dante Alighieri, Francis Bacon and Johann Strauss II in the Hannibal booklet. BTW I like this score.

Karol

[Brónach 1,302]

The Holst estate always seems to be very protective of it's intellectual property.

These "states" always seemed to me only like a bunch of people finding a way to make money out of something they didn't create.

[Thor 7,490]

Fancy bullshitting aside, that is emulating a synthesiser. You've just said it. Stiff, metronomic rhythms; minimal expression from the players; simplistic 'direct chord changes' etc...

Even Zimmer himself admitted it in a fan video interview for Inception.

Of course not. It's a style of MUSIC, not trying to emulate anything, least of all a synth. Rock/pop music operates with different chord progressions than orchestral music, usually with changes occuring simultaneously among the instruments. This is not usually the case with orchestral music. However, prog rock (and "art rock") challenged this notion, trying to adopt means from classical music into the rock idiom - sometimes even using actual orchestras as colourization. Pink Floyd, Emerson, Lake & Palmer, Yes, Alan Parsons Project, Supertramp, King Crimson, Genesis, you name it. Zimmer's old MV/RC sound is very much modelled on the same approach, using elements from electropop as well (since that's where he came from). That's why I've never understood the need to evaluate his music as if it were traditional orchestral music since it's anything but. It's a hybrid form that first of all is rock-based, and that uses orchestra (sampled and acoustic) as just another element.

Whether you like or dislike that approach is purely up to each person (I happen to dig it!), but there's no need to judge it by criteria that don't apply. That's like judging the orchestral bits in Pink Floyd's THE WALL by the same criteria you judge Beethoven's Fifth. Or some such thing.

[crocodile 8,000]

The only thing that really, really, really bothers me is that sometimes his music sounds like a mock-up. There's no point hiring live musicians if it doesn't make a difference.

Karol

[gkgyver 1,645]

I would prefer the mockups on the LOTR Rarities disc to the whole of Inception.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

That's like judging the orchestral bits in Pink Floyd's THE WALL by the same criteria you judge Beethoven's Fifth. Or some such thing.

It's like paint. It can be used to colour your bedroom wall, or colour the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. But only one is worth talking about.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Fancy bullshitting aside, that is emulating a synthesiser. You've just said it. Stiff, metronomic rhythms; minimal expression from the players; simplistic 'direct chord changes' etc...

Even Zimmer himself admitted it in a fan video interview for Inception.

Of course not. It's a style of MUSIC, not trying to emulate anything, least of all a synth. Rock/pop music operates with different chord progressions than orchestral music, usually with changes occuring simultaneously among the instruments. This is not usually the case with orchestral music. However, prog rock (and "art rock") challenged this notion, trying to adopt means from classical music into the rock idiom - sometimes even using actual orchestras as colourization. Pink Floyd, Emerson, Lake & Palmer, Yes, Alan Parsons Project, Supertramp, King Crimson, Genesis, you name it.

It's perhaps no small coincidence that I can't stand any of those bands.

No, I do understand where Zimmer's collusion of self-important-pop-and-symphony-orchestra stems from. I'm judging it as music alone. I'm not into criticising it based on genre, or apples-and-oranges relativism. That's far too restrictive.

The moment someone decides to use an orchestra for any means, I lay down my judgement upon thee. Whether or not it comes from a different musical sensibility - I don't give a rat's arse. My standards are universal.

So when Hans Zimmer brings his electro-pop origins into the symphony orchestra (something out of his league), with minimal adaptation, then I'll appraise it on how he uses the symphony orchestra. Among other things.

Over and out.

[Trent B 337]

If a score is all synth like what most of Zimmer's is these days and gives me a headache while trying to listen to it, then to me it's not considered film score music.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I was listening to some of John Powell's work lately, such as Horton Hears a Who and How To Train Your Dragon and I was shocked that I'd missed much of this composer's recent output - probably because all the films he's scored were ones I never bothered seeing, but I was so impressed by his stuff that I think film music is in good hands for the future, even if modern composers don't quite have the instantly identifiable individual trademarks or characteristics that the previous generations charmed us with. Some of the current crop are good and some are so mediocre I can't be bothered collecting them, but I don't think the situation is as dire as some make out.

[Neimoidian 14]

If a score is all synth like what most of Zimmer's is these days and gives me a headache while trying to listen to it, then to me it's not considered film score music.

So, when you're watching a movie and you don't like screenplay or actor, then you don't consider it a movie, do you?

[Salacius 7]

I was listening to some of John Powell's work lately, such as Horton Hears a Who and How To Train Your Dragon and I was shocked that I'd missed much of this composer's recent output - probably because all the films he's scored were ones I never bothered seeing, but I was so impressed by his stuff that I think film music is in good hands for the future, even if modern composers don't quite have the instantly identifiable individual trademarks or characteristics that the previous generations charmed us with. Some of the current crop are good and some are so mediocre I can't be bothered collecting them, but I don't think the situation is as dire as some make out.

I agree about John Powell, the knowledge is most definitely there, but his scores never grabbed me for some reason. They sound too much like 'by the numbers'.

When I hear his music IMO most times it sounds like it could have been written by anybody.

[Neimoidian 14]

I agree about John Powell, the knowledge is most definitely there, but his scores never grabbed me for some reason. They sound too much like 'by the numbers'.

When I hear his music IMO most times it sounds like it could have been written by anybody.

I disagree. His style is characteristic enough that I find it difficult to confuse Powell's music with somebody else's. However, his scores rarely grab me too. I guess they're much too frenetic and intense to my taste. They work in small doses, but more than 30 minutes of such music starts giving me headache. That includes even HTTYD, which is terrific score on its own, but I can hardly bear listening to the whole CD. On the other hand, hearing a 15-minute-long concert suite of this was one of the best musical experiences in my life.

[Brónach 1,302]

I have no problem going through any Powell CD. Except for the complete X-Men 3, maybe.

[crocodile 8,000]

I think he's a skilled and talented composer, but he puts too much stuff in there.

Karol

[Thor 7,490]

It's perhaps no small coincidence that I can't stand any of those bands.

No, I do understand where Zimmer's collusion of self-important-pop-and-symphony-orchestra stems from. I'm judging it as music alone. I'm not into criticising it based on genre, or apples-and-oranges relativism. That's far too restrictive.

The moment someone decides to use an orchestra for any means, I lay down my judgement upon thee. Whether or not it comes from a different musical sensibility - I don't give a rat's arse. My standards are universal.

So when Hans Zimmer brings his electro-pop origins into the symphony orchestra (something out of his league), with minimal adaptation, then I'll appraise it on how he uses the symphony orchestra. Among other things.

Over and out.

Yikes.

If there were small bits of electronic colourization in an otherwise fully orchestral score, would you also judge it by the rules of trance, house, ambient, triphop etc.?

Orchestral elements (either as a whole or individually pr. instrument, either sampled or acoustic) can be used in any given musical expressions like all other instruments. It doesn't ALWAYS have to be in a traditionally classical style, and consequently shouldn't be judged as such.

I hope you understand that I can't take any criticism seriously that doesn't at the very least consider what genre or musical expression one is dealing with. If one doesn't like said genre, that's perfectly fine. What is NOT fine is judging it by criteria that don't apply.

[Salacius 7]

I agree about John Powell, the knowledge is most definitely there, but his scores never grabbed me for some reason. They sound too much like 'by the numbers'.

When I hear his music IMO most times it sounds like it could have been written by anybody.

I disagree. His style is characteristic enough that I find it difficult to confuse Powell's music with somebody else's. However, his scores rarely grab me too. I guess they're much too frenetic and intense to my taste. They work in small doses, but more than 30 minutes of such music starts giving me headache. That includes even HTTYD, which is terrific score on its own, but I can hardly bear listening to the whole CD. On the other hand, hearing a 15-minute-long concert suite of this was one of the best musical experiences in my life.

For sure but I said 'most times'. The Powell signature themes are fine, even though they start to sound similar. All the music around them does lose identity IMO.

So you saw John Powell's music live?

It's perhaps no small coincidence that I can't stand any of those bands.

No, I do understand where Zimmer's collusion of self-important-pop-and-symphony-orchestra stems from. I'm judging it as music alone. I'm not into criticising it based on genre, or apples-and-oranges relativism. That's far too restrictive.

The moment someone decides to use an orchestra for any means, I lay down my judgement upon thee. Whether or not it comes from a different musical sensibility - I don't give a rat's arse. My standards are universal.

So when Hans Zimmer brings his electro-pop origins into the symphony orchestra (something out of his league), with minimal adaptation, then I'll appraise it on how he uses the symphony orchestra. Among other things.

Over and out.

Yikes.

If there were small bits of electronic colourization in an otherwise fully orchestral score, would you also judge it by the rules of trance, house, ambient, triphop etc.?

Orchestral elements (either as a whole or individually pr. instrument, either sampled or acoustic) can be used in any given musical expressions like all other instruments. It doesn't ALWAYS have to be in a traditionally classical style, and consequently shouldn't be judged as such.

I hope you understand that I can't take any criticism seriously that doesn't at the very least consider what genre or musical expression one is dealing with. If one doesn't like said genre, that's perfectly fine. What is NOT fine is judging it by criteria that don't apply.

I'm with Prometheus on this one

[publicist 4,643]

I hope you understand that I can't take any criticism seriously that doesn't at the very least consider what genre or musical expression one is dealing with. If one doesn't like said genre, that's perfectly fine. What is NOT fine is judging it by criteria that don't apply.

On the other hand, it's also hard to take someone seriously who only dabbles in broad generalizations (not giving an inch of position ever) and seldom seems to really listen to the stuff he defends so vehemently. To ascribe any potential shortcoming as result of the object of criticism not being classical in approach and thus immune to any criticism reeks of supreme opportunism. Has it really anything to do with genre blendings that the underscore to CRIMSON TIDE consists of musical zero information droning on for minutes and minutes without any (apparent) purpose? (this is only one example)

[Thor 7,490]

I hope you understand that I can't take any criticism seriously that doesn't at the very least consider what genre or musical expression one is dealing with. If one doesn't like said genre, that's perfectly fine. What is NOT fine is judging it by criteria that don't apply.

On the other hand, it's also hard to take someone seriously who only dabbles in broad generalizations (not giving an inch of position ever) and seldom seems to really listen to the stuff he defends so vehemently. To ascribe any potential shortcoming as result of the object of criticism not being classical in approach and thus immune to any criticism reeks of supreme opportunism. Has it really anything to do with genre blendings that the underscore to CRIMSON TIDE consists of musical zero information droning on for minutes and minutes without any (apparent) purpose? (this is only one example)

Whether it's perceived as 'droning' or not is entirely up to subjective evaluation (that score happens to be one of my alltime favourite soundtracks, so I perceive it very differently from you). That's fine. What isn't so fine, IMO, is evaluating a thing with criteria that have no relevance for the thing in question. That's like finding a jazz riff in a Britney Spears song and evaluating it as a jazz piece.

Feel free to criticize Zimmer to your heart's content. But please do it at the music's own terms, not import them from somewhere else that have no relevance!

[Faleel 5,345]

Zimmer is somewhat overrated, John Williams is [sometimes blindly] held on a pedestal while he has his own misses, all composers are and do

[Kevin 22]

Zimmer is somewhat overrated, John Williams is [sometimes blindly] held on a pedestal while he has his own misses, all composers are and do

He can be very self referencing if you look for it. The difference between Williams and Horner is that, Williams picks his nose in the bathroom out of sight, Horner picks his nose right in front of you.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

If a score is all synth like what most of Zimmer's is these days and gives me a headache while trying to listen to it, then to me it's not considered film score music.

So, when you're watching a movie and you don't like screenplay or actor, then you don't consider it a movie, do you?

Either way, Zimmer's scores haven't been all synth since the 90s.

[Trent B 337]

If a score is all synth like what most of Zimmer's is these days and gives me a headache while trying to listen to it, then to me it's not considered film score music.

So, when you're watching a movie and you don't like screenplay or actor, then you don't consider it a movie, do you?

Most of the time if a score doesn't stand out to me I just keep watching the film and don't pay attention to the score.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

That's not what he ment.

[Trent B 337]

I re-read his question. If I don't like the actors or screen play then I consider it a bad movie and don't watch it again, like anyone else who doesn't like a movie because of those two items.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

But you said you don't consider Zimmer's music to be film music, because you don't like it.

It IS film music, just not very interesting film music...

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

It's perhaps no small coincidence that I can't stand any of those bands.

No, I do understand where Zimmer's collusion of self-important-pop-and-symphony-orchestra stems from. I'm judging it as music alone. I'm not into criticising it based on genre, or apples-and-oranges relativism. That's far too restrictive.

The moment someone decides to use an orchestra for any means, I lay down my judgement upon thee. Whether or not it comes from a different musical sensibility - I don't give a rat's arse. My standards are universal.

So when Hans Zimmer brings his electro-pop origins into the symphony orchestra (something out of his league), with minimal adaptation, then I'll appraise it on how he uses the symphony orchestra. Among other things.

Over and out.

Yikes.

I'm partly being tongue-in-cheek.

If there were small bits of electronic colourization in an otherwise fully orchestral score, would you also judge it by the rules of trance, house, ambient, triphop etc.?

Good point.

I usually judge it on what composes the majority of the score. So if it's largely orchestral, as in say GLADIATOR, I review it on those terms.

I hope you understand.

[STORM 1]

Scores to hollywood films still stuck in a rutt,a bad one imo,but away from hollywood they are promising.Deff think its fault of film makers wanting same media ventures rubbish,barely anything i like of zimmers that i`ve heard,and can hardly get into any when heard on cd,and think gladiator score overated.

Scores to hollywood films still stuck in a rutt,a bad one imo,but away from hollywood they are promising.Deff think its fault of film makers wanting same media ventures rubbish,barely anything i like of zimmers that i`ve heard,and can hardly get into any when heard on cd,and think gladiator score overated.

Also think its zimmers fault to,must say thou think he`s good being interviewed he seems to almost slag is own music off