Anakin Skywalker was NOT redeemed.

[Kevin 22]

This isn't by me:

The link

I don't care how many excuses you lay down, he is not off the hook for all the horrible things he did working for the Empire. Even if he did toss the Emperor down the thing, that barely makes up for it. Darth Vader finally does one GOOD thing and we all throw him a pizza party? Good for him, he saw his son with his own eyes. I think it's kind of convenient he died before facing his daughter. You know, the lady whose HOME PLANET he was responsible for blowing up after choking her mother and botching fatherhood???

Screw Lord Vader, screw Anakin. Neither one of them deserve to appear at the end of Jedi. I'd also like to point out AGAIN that Qui-Gon never taught ghosting to Anakin. Why couldn't they just leave it a mystery at the end of Sith and give us, oh, I don't know, SOMETHING OF SUBSTANCE WE HAVEN'T SEEN BEFORE.

Don't let them fool you. Anakin was never redeemed, and he never really fell to the dark side. All he did was kill Dooku, a bunch of CHILDREN, some sand people, caught Windu flat-footed and chopped his arm off, and picked a fight with his master he was sure to lose. Out of convenience, Sidious kept him -- one of the last JEDI-- alive with Sith magic using the torturous guilt of betrayal to make him do his bidding. Vader's biz was pure malevolence and hatred 24/7 up until the Emperor caber toss, which is still a loathsome thing to do. Had Luke had finished him off, young Skywalker's destiny would be cemented in darkness. Guess it makes sense to have the guy who's already hit rock bottom to set it right. Still, it doesn't make up for all the other horrendous acts he is responsible for.

Darth Vader was nothing but a bully, the kind of jerk who shows no remorse, no mercy. I think the prequels portrayed him perfectly -- a pussy coward you're supposed to hate. I wouldn't want to identify with Darth Vader... EVER. Really? We're meant to believe that ONE ACT OF GOODNESS is enough to wipe the slate clean after years of being a good-for-nothing dirty son-of-a-bitch? That evil chickenscat bastard didn't deserve to stand next to Obi-Wan or Yoda at the end of Jedi. Screw Vader. He should burn in hell.

[Giftheck 916]

You haven't looked into the expanded universe, have you?

[Charlie Brigden 7]

This isn't by me:

The link

I don't care how many excuses you lay down, he is not off the hook for all the horrible things he did working for the Empire. Even if he did toss the Emperor down the thing, that barely makes up for it. Darth Vader finally does one GOOD thing and we all throw him a pizza party? Good for him, he saw his son with his own eyes. I think it's kind of convenient he died before facing his daughter. You know, the lady whose HOME PLANET he was responsible for blowing up after choking her mother and botching fatherhood???

Screw Lord Vader, screw Anakin. Neither one of them deserve to appear at the end of Jedi. I'd also like to point out AGAIN that Qui-Gon never taught ghosting to Anakin. Why couldn't they just leave it a mystery at the end of Sith and give us, oh, I don't know, SOMETHING OF SUBSTANCE WE HAVEN'T SEEN BEFORE.

Don't let them fool you. Anakin was never redeemed, and he never really fell to the dark side. All he did was kill Dooku, a bunch of CHILDREN, some sand people, caught Windu flat-footed and chopped his arm off, and picked a fight with his master he was sure to lose. Out of convenience, Sidious kept him -- one of the last JEDI-- alive with Sith magic using the torturous guilt of betrayal to make him do his bidding. Vader's biz was pure malevolence and hatred 24/7 up until the Emperor caber toss, which is still a loathsome thing to do. Had Luke had finished him off, young Skywalker's destiny would be cemented in darkness. Guess it makes sense to have the guy who's already hit rock bottom to set it right. Still, it doesn't make up for all the other horrendous acts he is responsible for.

Darth Vader was nothing but a bully, the kind of jerk who shows no remorse, no mercy. I think the prequels portrayed him perfectly -- a pussy coward you're supposed to hate. I wouldn't want to identify with Darth Vader... EVER. Really? We're meant to believe that ONE ACT OF GOODNESS is enough to wipe the slate clean after years of being a good-for-nothing dirty son-of-a-bitch? That evil chickenscat bastard didn't deserve to stand next to Obi-Wan or Yoda at the end of Jedi. Screw Vader. He should burn in hell.

Dude, wtf, why are you even posting this shit here?

[pixie_twinkle 48]

Actually I think the post makes a very valid point. Hadn't really thought of it like that before. Vader WAS a twat.

[Datameister 2,042]

But when you think about how much worse Palpatine was...I mean, come on, this Vader dude brought balance to the freaking Force. Let's cut him a little slack!

[Brónach 1,302]

This "balance to the Force" thing should've have been explored furthed. For example, they could clearly state that whatever a force user does influences the whole universe in a direction or another, because the Force links everything. And then it seems something important.

[Datameister 2,042]

Oh, come on...you actually expect the prequels to tell you important information outright? Lucas knew that by obscuring everything in political blabberings and de-emphasizing the motivations and consequences of the characters' actions, he could give fans more to talk about for years to come. He was thinking of us!

[Uni 306]

Actually I think the post makes a very valid point. Hadn't really thought of it like that before. Vader WAS a twat.

Sure he was. But so what? He turned back at the end. It was a redemptive act, one that ultimately cost him his life. To say it wasn't "good enough" misses the point entirely. That's suggesting that, if he'd survived, he would have to spend the rest of his life doing good deeds in order to be considered "redeemed." But by who's measure? When would it be enough? At what point would someone say, "Okay, you're done levitating old ladies' purses--and old ladies, too--with the Force. You can be considered good now."

Baloney. The act itself wasn't even the defining aspect; rather, it was the decision to reject what he'd become over the years and accept what his son was offering him. He chose to return to the "Light side." The fact that he sent the Emporer base jumping without a parachute simply sealed the deal.

- Uni

[Faleel 5,346]

It was that he repented, not that he did good works

[Marian Schedenig 8,192]

Sure he was. But so what? He turned back at the end. It was a redemptive act, one that ultimately cost him his life. To say it wasn't "good enough" misses the point entirely. That's suggesting that, if he'd survived, he would have to spend the rest of his life doing good deeds in order to be considered "redeemed." But by who's measure? When would it be enough? At what point would someone say, "Okay, you're done levitating old ladies' purses--and old ladies, too--with the Force. You can be considered good now."

Baloney. The act itself wasn't even the defining aspect; rather, it was the decision to reject what he'd become over the years and accept what his son was offering him. He chose to return to the "Light side." The fact that he sent the Emporer base jumping without a parachute simply sealed the deal.

[Trent B 337]

Also by destroying the emperor and sacrificing himself to go back to the "Light Side" as Datameister said it restored balance to the force. Anakin was seduced by the Dark Side and became Lord Vader. In the end it was his son who helped him back to the good side as he knew he could do it. So the prophecy of him being "The Chosen One" actually did happen. Grant it happened 30 years later but, some things are better late than never. Palpatine really had a strong leash on Anakin/Vader in order to keep him seduced to the Dark Side for many years. Paplatine made the mistake by under-estimating Luke.

[Uni 306]

This seems like as good a place as any to bring up an interpretation of the ancient prophecy (which remains unattributed and unexplained to this day--thanks GL) that I came up with when I saw the prequels. Although, I guess I can't really say I "came up with it" in the sense that I rationalized it as an afterthought to the movies. I actually believed this was where George was going with this thing. Really. This was back in the day when I thought there was some infinitessimal chance that he might yet salvage the flaming wreck of the PT and offer us something of substance before the end.

When I heard them rattle off the prophecy about "the one who will bring balance to the Force" . . . well, having seen the original films, and knowing how the story ends, I thought they were misinterpreting it to mean that Anakin was The One (when everyone knows it's Neo, right? ). I thought the ultimate denouement would prove Luke as the object of the prophecy, not Anakin--since Luke was the one who convinced Vader to come back to the good side, and since it was through his influence, after all, that Vader killed the Emporer (this would obviously never have happened without him).

So from TPM on, I figured they were misreading things, thinking Anakin was The One who would bring balance, only to find he's the one who helped imbalance the whole thing . . . but ironically he would conceive a son who was The Actual One, the one who would bring eventual balance.

Alas, this is what is known in professional circles as an "intelligent plot development," something far beyond the reach of Our Man George. I have no doubt that he intended, from beginning to end, that Anakin was The One, and that his final redemptive act was what brought balance back. Now, again, I don't agree with this guy who thinks Vader wasn't redeemed before he died. I'm convinced that he was. However . . . while his actions redeemed him, I'm not convinced they brought balance back to the Force. I'm far more convinced it was Luke who engineered all that, and who stands as the true and ultimate heroic Jedi in the end.

However . . . there's nothing that actually confirms that Anakin was who the prophecy referred to, is there? Qui-Gon and Samuel L. and everyone all speculated about it, but they didn't know. I mean, at no point did anyone say, "Yeah, we were right, he was The One. Too bad he turned out to be such a major dick." Which means there's nothing saying Luke isn't The One mentioned in the prophecy, right?

So I guess, for the sake of retaining something of some small value from what Star Wars has become, I can go ahead and believe that my version is the correct one. That the merits of the story are greater than the merits of the storyteller. That Luke Skywalker was The One who brought balance back to the Force (after George Lucas threw everything out of whack, that is. . . .).

- Uni

[Koray Savas 2,251]

More Star Wars arguments? I'll pass on this thread.

[King Mark 3,631]

what, this again?

lol Uni didn't post on the MB for like 8 years so he's not tired of it

[Trent B 337]

"A prophecy mis-read, could have been" - Yoda in ROTS

I think he was ultimately right on this one.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The problem is.

I can't take the Star Wars films seriously enough to engage in a philosophical debate about them.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

You raped my childhood.

[Brónach 1,302]

The problem is.

I can't take the Star Wars films seriously enough to engage in a philosophical debate about them.

I don't think you have to take a film seriously to analyse how a story works (or doesn't work). What philosophy?

Oh, come on...you actually expect the prequels to tell you important information outright? Lucas knew that by obscuring everything in political blabberings and de-emphasizing the motivations and consequences of the characters' actions, he could give fans more to talk about for years to come. He was thinking of us!

I was actually thinking on Return of the Jedi all the time, not the prequels.

[Ollie 1,059]

Well I mentioned in another thread I've never liked the idea of Vader being Luke's father.

I don't think he deserved a redemption. He went from being a true evil character to a complete wuss. Humanizing him ruined the series.

[Brónach 1,302]

I always like it on ESB at least because it seemed to upset the hero. Which is nearly always good.

[Melange 446]

The problem is. I can't take the Star Wars films seriously enough to engage in a philosophical debate about them.

We are alike, you and I.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Vader found GOD.

[Trent B 337]

Vader found GOD.

I thought that was Kirk?

[Datameister 2,042]

What does God need with a Star Destroyer?

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Vader participated in the destruction of a world, and slaughtered children.

There is no redemption for him.

[Melange 446]

"The 'Lord' works in mysterious ways!"

[crocodile 8,001]

While at this point I don't care for any SW film, I must say the great irony behind redemption is that if it was easy and simple then it probably wouldn't mean much. That's the point.

Karol

[Wojo 2,453]

It depends on who we perceive is required to believe that the person was redeemed, analogous to actively forgiving. If it's the entire galaxy, then no, forget it, Darth Vader can never be considered to be "redeemed." To the rest of the galaxy, Anakin Skywalker disappeared from history decades before Endor and became a non-issue, while Vader went on a destructive reign of terror.

Even one EU work says that while Anakin did visit Leia as a Force ghost, she could never forgive him for destroying her home world and torturing her on the Death Star. Regardless of who her real parents were, she would not remember Padme dying moments after being born; she would remember her Alderaanian family, murdered by the cronies of this man asking for forgiveness. Anakin never visited Leia again, but she eventually saw calm enough to name a son after him.

But in the eyes of Luke, Vader/Anakin was redeemed. Luke had a real problem with hanging onto the father figures in his life. Uncle Owen meant well, but was obviously too mean and restrictive to Luke's dreams, and he died. Then Luke gets to know Ben, but he dies. And he meets Yoda (who will die). So now Luke meets this terrible figure of evil, watches him cut off his hand, and then finds out that this dark man is really his father.

Well, by Job, he's not going to let this man get away, too. He convinces himself that there is still good in him, and places his faith that his own personal devil can be redeemed, going so far as to avoid killing him outright when he had the chance. And for that one brief moment, when Anakin stops the Emperor from torturing his son, when Luke can view his father's face without the mask, and as he cries real tears over the loss of yet another father figure, Anakin Skywalker is redeemed.

[Uni 306]

lol Uni didn't post on the MB for like 8 years so he's not tired of it

Heh . . . no kidding. If I hadn't I'd probably be sick of talking about all this by now, too.

I can't take the Star Wars films seriously enough to engage in a philosophical debate about them.

Oh, it's not a philisophical debate. Like I said, he's redeemed. I'm right. Problem solved.

No, my last commentary focuses entirely on the issue of story, and good storytelling (and bad, while we're on it). Lucas could've made at least one good connection with the later episodes, and he passed on it--though, as I said, he left the door cracked open just enough that we can draw our own conclusions if we choose (and tell a better story ourselves than he did).

- Uni

[Jeff 10]

Sure he was. But so what? He turned back at the end. It was a redemptive act, one that ultimately cost him his life. To say it wasn't "good enough" misses the point entirely. That's suggesting that, if he'd survived, he would have to spend the rest of his life doing good deeds in order to be considered "redeemed." But by who's measure? When would it be enough? At what point would someone say, "Okay, you're done levitating old ladies' purses--and old ladies, too--with the Force. You can be considered good now."

Baloney. The act itself wasn't even the defining aspect; rather, it was the decision to reject what he'd become over the years and accept what his son was offering him. He chose to return to the "Light side." The fact that he sent the Emporer base jumping without a parachute simply sealed the deal.

Uni is right and the rest of you (except Marian) are completely missing the point.

[Ollie 1,059]

No, that's Uni's own personal opinion.

The rest of us have our own personal opinion as well.

Vader found GOD.

No religious discussion allowed.

[Wojo 2,453]

If Vader had found God, he would have tried to Force choke Him.

[Uni 306]

No, that's Uni's own personal opinion.

No it's not. I'm right. I checked to make sure.

If Vader had found God, he would have tried to Force choke Him.

- Uni