Don't you think this a litte too much praise?

[Romão 2,274]

I was reading musicfromthemovies' review of TTT score, and I stumbled upon this sentence:

" What Howard Shore is currently conceiving with his music for the Lord Of The Rings trilogy is simply the most remarkable film music composed since John Williams wrote his groundbreaking scores for the initial Star Wars trilogy. In fact, Howard Shore's music is more complex and challenging. "

What do you guys think about this?

[Guest]

Me agrees with the article!!!!!!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Although I have not seen TTT yet (16:00 today) i must agree with that statement.

Stefancos- who will go to work for the last time (TWO WEEKS OF VACATION!!!)

[diskobolus 3]

Someone who claims that the Lord of the Rings score is better than that of the original Star Wars trilogy has no idea what they're talking about.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

MY GOD!

They are ET, Indiana Jones trilogy and more!

Luke, thinking that the Praise to LOTR is reaching dangerous levels

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Although I have not seen TTT yet (16:00 today) i must agree with that statement.

Stefancos- who will go to work for the last time (TWO WEEKS OF VACATION!!!)  

I cannot believe a Towner Knigth would say something so blasphemous.

Howard Shore's unremarkable scores haven't a scraping of the power and granduer that is the original Star Wars trilogy.

Joe, who thinks Stefan hasn't been much of a Williams' fan lately.

[tpigeon 3]

Howard Shore's unremarkable scores haven't a scraping of the power and granduer that is the original Star Wars trilogy.

i think the Fellowship score was good, but nowhere near the quality of Star Wars. you have to compare the complete scores. being the ultimate dissatisfied soundtrack listener, i don't think the score to the Fellowship was well represented by the soundtrack. too much Ringwraith music. it wasn't even. i think the score is better than that, but not up to Star Wars. one can make a case for the Two Towers, however, in my opinion. it's much better represented on cd and the rest of the score in the film is equally as good. there was some great music in the battle of Helm's Deep that wasn't on cd, as well as some other brilliant passages.

Ted

[Hlao-roo 389]

Yes, the The Two Towers has been extremely challenging... it's been the biggest challenge of my life; it's nearly killing me. I think there should be a disclaimer somewhere on the album package saying, "NOTE: Music herein has proved to be challenging. Buy at your own risk."

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

Wow. I can't really think of anything to say to that utterly absurd article.

Ray Barnsbury

[King Mark 3,631]

The score is the one thing about TTT that left me unimpressed.

K.M.

[jsawruk 0]

Objectively, Star Wars is more technically complex, from both a performance and composition aspect. Lord of the Rings is more straightforward in its approach to melody, harmony, rhythm, and orchestration.

Subjectively, I do like Star Wars music better.

I think that while the achievement of needing to write three film scores is a good comparison, I do not think that Shore is on the same level as Williams, for a couple of reasons. First, Williams is older and has had much more experience than Shore, a very important factor in film music! Also, Williams wrote the score to the Star Wars Trilogy over the period of 6 years, although he worked on other films as well (many of his best actually were during those 6yrs). Shore scored three major films in three years (or less?), which in itself is a major accomplishment for any film composer. Sure, the average film composer does three films a year, but most composers do not write wall to wall sound (which Shore and Williams did in LOTR and SW respectively), nor do they orchestrate their own scores (Shore orchestrated LOTR, Williams had orchestrators for SW, but had a very heavy hand in the orchestration process).

I think that we must applaud Shore for his effort, regardless of the music because it was a huge project. Also, the quality of the music probably was affected in someway by the tight production schedule. Shore could've done a little better for his abilities, although he also could do a lot better with more experience.

Conclusion: Shore does not match John Williams today, not by a long shot (listen to their use of leitmotifs, for example), but I think that Shore will eventually become a good film composer, with LOTR his first very important work.

[Guest]

I'll confess to being less familiar with the LOTR scores - the TTT not at all until I see the movie soon. But my impression of FOTR as heard in the movie is that Shore wrote a highly competent, functional score which is no small thing for a film like this. Its a different enough movie from Star Wars that a straight comparison is misleading.

However, with that said, he doesn't come close to JW in terms of the ability to marry the music to the film, capturing the rythem, emotion, texture and all of the minutia of subtlety. Of course no one I've discovered is able to do that so that's not exactly a major insult towards Shore. Its difficult, if not impossible, for me to imagine Star Wars movies, ET, Jaws, Indiana Jones, etc., etc. without JW's contribution. Its not nearly as difficult with the first LOTR movie to imagine a non-Shore FOTR. I salivate at the thought of what I'd be listening to if JW had done LOTR. But I'll go into the second movie with an open mind.

From a purely musical point of view, I agree with the earlier statement that JW writes more technically difficult and complex music than Shore. In fact its not even close so I can only assume that the reviewer meant "complex" from the point of view of the way the music interacts with the film. If so, I'd like to know what he means more specifically. I didn't get that impression from the first film.

-Adam

[Romão 2,274]

Objectively, Star Wars is more technically complex, from both a performance and composition aspect. Lord of the Rings is more straightforward in its approach to melody, harmony, rhythm, and orchestration.

Also, Williams wrote the score to the Star Wars Trilogy over the period of 6 years, although he worked on other films as well (many of his best actually were during those 6yrs). Shore scored three major films in three years (or less?), which in itself is a major accomplishment for any film composer. Sure, the average film composer does three films a year, but most composers do not write wall to wall sound (which Shore and Williams did in LOTR and SW respectively), nor do they orchestrate their own scores (Shore orchestrated LOTR, Williams had orchestrators for SW, but had a very heavy hand in the orchestration process

Williams did not write durimg those 6 years. He took 3 or 4 months for each score. Howard shore took a lot more time for each score in the LOTR trilogy.

[Melange 446]

There was some great music in the battle of Helm's Deep that wasn't on cd, as well as some other brilliant passages. Ted

That was probably deliberate Ted, so that in 1 years time they can screw buyers over by releasing the "Deluxe" edition with all the best unreleased music complete with Plastic sword, Bow and Arrow, or Axe (depending on which edition of the special deluxe edition you have to choose from). I'm sure these releases wont be the end of the story. Commericalism has gots its beady eyes on the Lord of the Rings Trilogy. Buyer beware..hehe

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

. Lord of the Rings is more straightforward in its approach to melody, harmony, rhythm, and orchestration.

WHAT?! My ears hurt when hearing the chorus in FOTR. Too much boom, boom but nothing special. Outside the movie the music is not worth very much /except the Hobbit theme).

[Morn 8]

I don't think time is much of an issue though really, it only lets you perfect stuff really, coming up with the basic idea time won't affect that much and really depends more on the personality of the composer than the amount of hours put into it. A good composer could come up with music almost as good in much less time as he could for twice or more of the amount of time.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I cannot believe a Towner Knigth would say something so blasphemous.

Even ignoring you misspelling of the word "Knight" this sentence is so ridiculous it's barely worth responding to.

Howard Shore's unremarkable scores haven't a scraping of the power and granduer that is the original Star Wars trilogy.

That is your opinion, and as your own signature tells us, we do not have to take that as a given fact.

Joe, who thinks Stefan hasn't been much of a Williams' fan lately.

Stefancos- who wishes Williams would compose a score that would re-affirm my faith in him.

[Ollie 1,059]

It is indeed a shame that so few can actually appreciate a very good film score. Shore is a very good composer yet sadly underrated and obviously not appreciated. But then given the current state of film music, aside from Williams, I'm not suprised at how un-appreciated Shore is.

[charlesk 0]

Howard Shore as surprised his audiences with an epic score. However, his treatment is effectist, and TTT score left me unimpressed. He reuses the same motifs introduced before, with no new memorable ideas.

Whoever compares Williams with Shore at the same level is a jerk. Even Shore would agree. (Williams would politely say nothing)

The author of the article is obviously subjective and a musical deaf. The LOTR movies are very good indeed, that doesn't mean the score is so excellent as well. Frightening, creepy, bombastic is not synonymous of 'excellent score'.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

It is indeed a shame that so few can actually appreciate a very good film score.

Where do you get that? Opinions are split pretty much 50/50 on this board, and in the "real world" people praise it even more. Shore won an Oscar for it. I think that shows that a lot of people appreciate it.

Ray Barnsbury-who appreciates it less than most

[Guest]

Howard Shore as surprised his audiences with an epic score. However, his treatment is effectist, and TTT score left me unimpressed. He reuses the same motifs introduced before, with no new memorable ideas.

Whoever compares Williams with Shore at the same level is a jerk. Even Shore would agree. (Williams would politely say nothing)

The author of the article is obviously subjective and a musical deaf. The LOTR movies are very good indeed, that doesn't mean the score is so excellent as well. Frightening, creepy, bombastic is not synonymous of 'excellent score'.

Why is he a jerk for stating his own opinion? I'm one of the biggest Williams fans around and yet I think TTT is one of the best scores of the year. That's just your own opinion as well. I don't think you've given the score a very good listen if you think it's nothing new from the first one. It sure doesn't sound like a repeat of the first one to me. Williams uses the same motifs and themes thru out the Star Wars Saga as well.

[Ollie 1,059]

Howard Shore as surprised his audiences with an epic score. However, his treatment is effectist, and TTT score left me unimpressed. He reuses the same motifs introduced before, with no new memorable ideas.

Whoever compares Williams with Shore at the same level is a jerk. Even Shore would agree. (Williams would politely say nothing)

The author of the article is obviously subjective and a musical deaf. The LOTR movies are very good indeed, that doesn't mean the score is so excellent as well. Frightening, creepy, bombastic is not synonymous of 'excellent score'.

Why is he a jerk for stating his own opinion? I'm one of the biggest Williams fans around and yet I think TTT is one of the best scores of the year. That's just your own opinion as well. I don't think you've given the score a very good listen if you think it's nothing new from the first one. It sure doesn't sound like a repeat of the first one to me. Williams uses the same motifs and themes thru out the Star Wars Saga as well.

Oops sorry that was me, got logged off.

[charlesk 0]

Mark,

One thing is stating a opinion about a score you liked. ANOTHER thing is stating as a reviewer in a site called musicfromthemovies.com AND say that Howard Shore score is 'more complex and challenging' than Williams' Star Wars.

If that wasn't enough, the jerk went ever further by saying just after last statement:

"There is so much beauty, so much depth and so much integrity in this music."

I take that he copied that sentence from a review of Mahler or Wagner. Using it for Shore's music is just ludicrous.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I take that he copied that sentence from a review of Mahler or Wagner. Using it for Shore's music is just ludicrous.

If he had used that sentence for a Williams score....ANY Williams score, would you be complaining about it?

Naturally most members of this MB favor Williams music over anyone else's, but some people here seem to actually feel threatened when other composers are being praised here.

I find it petty and inmature, for me Williams id the BOMB, but that doesn't mean i have to consider any other composer inferiour.

Stefancos- :roll:

[Melange 446]

I agree. Dont take it all so seriously Charlesk. That reviewer pushed your buttons and you're going along with it. Its his own subjective view of the score. He likes it. Let it be. I'm not exactly a huge fan of the scores, but i dont feel threatened by all the praise. For him, he finds the scores complex.

Live and let live.

[Morn 8]

Shore sounds cheap compared to Mahler. But other film composers can be put on his level. I strongly think. Like Williams or North.

But I can see what he means when he says ""There is so much beauty, so much depth and so much integrity in this music." But he is rather overstating it.

The author of the article is obviously subjective and a musical deaf. The LOTR movies are very good indeed, that doesn't mean the score is so excellent as well. Frightening, creepy, bombastic is not synonymous of 'excellent score'.

I doubt those are the reasons he likes it as much as he does. You just commited a straw man.

[ocelot 508]

I think Shore's music to both the films so far have been very unimaginative and the orchestrations bland at best. The woodwinds are never utilized unless it is a solo, the brass are overbearing and HUGE ALL THE TIME THEY PLAY. With Williams You always here the different Woodwinds and Brass all the time, but in different voices, loudness and colors,and his use of Leitmotif (Shore) was a waste. He could have done so much, yet delivered so little. He had SO MUCH time so write the scores. The production schedule was not hectic (for him) in fact he had a lot morw time to write the scores than most people do. That music for theHobbits at the begining of the first film sounds like something you write in composition 101, seriously!!! The first time I heard it I went red with embarrasment. Not to mention that irritating fiddle stuff in the second movie, that, with the rest of the score, pulls the filom down into the bogs. Lord, where do people get off even comparing the two?!?!?!?!?! There were no themes for the other characters really, and soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo many loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong notes throughout the film I'm surprised the orchestra didn't fall asleep during the sessions. These are trully boring scores to the max. The only thing I did like, was the statement when you go to Sarumon (sp) and the wraiths music, but those alone do not save a bland score. I'm also not only talking about myself here. This is something talked about around here.

[Morn 8]

I think Shore's music to both the films so far have been very unimaginative and the orchestrations bland at best.

Bland = some what.

Unimaginative? I don't really think so, he brought a modernist spice to an epic score, but sure it's not of Williams quality.

The woodwinds are never utilized unless it is a solo, the brass are overbearing and HUGE ALL THE TIME THEY PLAY.

Hey, I love all his brass clusters!

That music for theHobbits at the begining of the first film sounds like something you write in composition 101, seriously

Yeah, well don't you think that's deliberate? I mean.... hobbits = simple country folk.

[charlesk 0]

I will only appeal to the test of time. If Howard Shore wins ANY serious prize for his score, like Williams did several times, I'll check his music again. If in 20 years we hear Howard Shore music performed in the concert hall for its value as a stand alone classic, then I'll give Shore another opportunity.

Don't be confused, Shore's music is effective in the movie, of course that if you have a chorus of 100 people singing in fortissimo in a hall with the acoustics of a big cave, that will give a great scary effect in the movie.

But as far as musical value is concerned, Howard Shore hasn't done anything special... yet.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I will only appeal to the test of time. If Howard Shore wins ANY serious prize for his score, like Williams did several times, I'll check his music again.

John Williams composed several outstanding score that have not recieved any "serious" awards.

If in 20 years we hear Howard Shore music performed in the concert hall for its value as a stand alone classic, then I'll give Shore another opportunity.

So only after his music has been generally excepted by others are you willing to give a composer a chance.

Also, i do not think that FILM music should be judged by how many times it get's played in a concert hall. :roll:

Don't be confused, Shore's music is effective in the movie, of course that if you have a chorus of 100 people singing in fortissimo in a hall with the acoustics of a big cave, that will give a great scary effect in the movie.

That alone is enough to label it a "good score" since it works well in the film it was composed for (truly the most important job of ANY film composer)

But as far as musical value is concerned, Howard Shore hasn't done anything special... yet.

That is your opinion, mine is different.

Stefancos- who thought Shore was a great composer years before he did FOTR.

[Morn 8]

I will only appeal to the test of time.

Test of time is really test of length of popularity. Popularity, as you should know is not the best judge of something.

If in 20 years we hear Howard Shore music performed in the concert hall for its value as a stand alone classic, then I'll give Shore another opportunity.

Lots of film music that could stand proudly next to works by the likes of Mahler and Beethoven isn't performed in the concert hall at all.

But as far as musical value is concerned, Howard Shore hasn't done anything special... yet.

You're probably right, but nor has he done anything insignificant.

[Adam 1]

Yeah, I don't think awards and official accolades mean anything, necessarily. Film scores should be judged on their own merits - in particular, how they support the film. Why defer to any so-called "experts", we can think for ourselves. I also agree that praise for another composer shouldn't be regarded as a threat to JW.

However, this thread was introduced with statement by a reviewer who stated a position that I think is inaccurate. I haven't really heard good arguments from anyone to defend the position that LOTR scores are as good or better than Star Wars. Plenty of people enjoy the music but that's not the same as saying Shore supports the film as well as JW would. I was frequently frustrated when watching LOTR because their were moments that had so much potential and the music wasn't rising to the same level. This is the type of movie that JW would hit out of the ballpark. In some ways it has more potential musically than Star Wars, I think, in terms of the importance and prominence of the film music to the film. That's not something that I can prove but I base it on an embarrasing amount of hours "studying" the way JW's music interacts with his films. He has a knack for subtlelty and an extreme attention to the demands of the film that is unrivaled. Not to speak of the musical range to pull it off consistently.

-Adam

[Morn 8]

I dunno, in FOTR Shore was able to expand the emotions in the film by a lot.

[Chris ChrusherComix 46]

Hmm... let me see...

Star Wars scores are the reason why I collect film music today.

Someone sent me a copy of FOTR and I listened to it once and found it extremely dull and the chorus extremely annoying.

Now while I have NOT seen the movie... I give you this simple comparison.

More people in the world will instantly recognize the Star Wars theme, Darth Vader's Theme, The Force theme, and not know even ONE theme from any LOTR movie to date.

In fact... I don't even know any themes from either!

[Morn 8]

Another appeal to popularity. :roll:

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

1) SW themes have been around for a while, giving people enough time to learn them. Though I don't think LOTR's themes will ever be as well-known as SW's.

2) Popular/easily recognizable themes don't necessarily make a good score, and a good score doesn't necessarily have to have them. How many people do you know who can whistle a theme from The Fury?

[Ross 1]

More people in the world will instantly recognize the Star Wars theme, Darth Vader's Theme, The Force theme, and not know even ONE theme from any LOTR movie to date.

As much as I dislike LOTR, I have to admit that's not true. In college everybody was humming the Fellowship Theme the day before the movie opened. And by everybody I mean most musically illeterate folks who did know they what they where humming. And that theme gets played in a lot of ringtones.

I have to admit the Ring Theme and the Fellowship Theme are excellent. The rest of the score just

[Adam 1]

Morn says Shore expanded the emotions a lot but the question is whether he does so to the degree that JW has done in the past or would with these films. I think Shore's scores are very effective but JW is in a class by himself in terms of the qualities I mentioned earlier.

Memorable themes aren't the main point, I would agree. There are plenty of great JW scores that don't have memorable themes. Some films don't really require it and even films that do might not be successful enough to penetrate into the culture (The Fury might be one of those - the theme is memorable enough to those of us who have seen it a few times or listened to the soundtrack more than a few times).

But, in a movie, such as LOTR one would expect more memorable themes to come out of it. JW's Star Wars themes are more memorable, not just because of the quality of the music, but also because the themes are so evokative of the ideas and characters in the movie. With LOTR, I think this is less the case although not completely, of course. The themes have a more generic quality. For example, LOTR needs a strong theme that really evokes the power and mystery of the ring - it ought to have a more powerful mythological, religious character to it. The current theme works fine in certain contexts but is constructed in such a way that it doesn't have the appropriate range and can't be manipulated to fit all of the scenes where it ought to be used. For example, there are scenes when the hobbit is feeling seduced by the ring and the music isn't hardly doing a thing. Its the equivalent of taking out the Force theme from the Star Wars movies. That's just one example and there are many others in the movie where the music falls short.

My fantasy would be to one day have all of the top composers in Hollywood score the same picture. It would be much easier to compare and reflect on their various contributions and JW's unrivaled strengths would me much more obvious, I think.

-Adam

[Morn 8]

Shore's score expanded the emotions in the film so much that Williams could not possiblity do better!

[Adam 1]

Well, I tried to present my case, with argument and an example, as to why the music doesn't always capture the emotion that the direction, acting, etc. suggest. You're asserting a position, not an argument. As such, I don't find your position very compelling.

-Adam

[Morn 8]

Well it's only a subjective position based on the emotional effect of the music in the film, not the thematic structure or anything. Yes, sure Williams could do better in terms of thematic construction. My argument is not supposed to be compelling in the sense that you suggest, it is merely saying that to me Williams would not have added more emotion to the film which is the primary purpose of a score.

[Adam 1]

Thematic construction is very much related to the overall emotional effect of the movie. So in the example I gave, when watching LOTR, certain scenes were calling out for strong thematic material to convey EMOTIONALLY the sense of the power and danger of the ring. And the music just didn't seem to rise to the occasion. These are the kind of scenes JW would add more emotion to and the accumulated effect of that kind of contribution would be to add to the overall emotional impact of the films. There's a subjective aspect, obviously, but we can also observe the pacing, the direction, the acting, etc. to see what a movie and what particular scenes in a movie are trying to accomplish. And then we can compare whether the music seems to be working in the same direction. This provides something of an objective criteria by which to judge a composer's contribution. And its on these grounds that I base my view.

-Adam

[Ren 75]

I just can't see a music teacher (hint hint clue clue) teaching the ring theme in 20 years. I'm mean JW stands the test of time. We just don't know yet about Shore. I'm not a clairvoyant, but I just don't see it.

[Morn 8]

Well yes, in that case I will agree Williams could have done some scenes better. But Shore did wonders in most of the emotionally important parts of the plot/film. The character death scenes for example, the dwarf's sadness from Moria. I would say that Williams could do a more accurate job in many scenes, but he would find it hard to reach the intensity which is more important.

Infact, I don't think Williams is the best film composer out there in terms of matching every scene in the film thematically and emotionally. I think herrmann and North and sometimes Goldsmith do it better, but not in terms of stand alone music quality. Williams tends to be sloppy with his thematicism (ie, read the posts about the imperial march and hedwigs theme). Sometimes misscoring the emotions in a scene but always pointing out important parts of the plot and usually how they are important.

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

I think the Ring theme is pretty much perfect, because the way it sounds, you can vary it as much as you will, it will never sound positive.

Also, Shore and JW have very different scoring approaches. Not only is the music they write very different, but also the way they use it in the movie. Shore doesn't highlight every tiny bit with a melodic theme, which I think makes the movie feel more realistic. (I think it's compared too much with Star Wars - LOTR has a more serious core than SW). And don't tell me The Breaking of the Fellowship isn't melodic and emotional.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I am convinced that Shore winning the Oscar last year is pretty much the same as when Giorgio Moroder, Michael Gore, and Vangelis won beating Williams those years. They are shames. It is an Oscar crime as great as '78, '80, and '81. Both A.I., and Harry Potter were more deserving of the Oscar than FOTR. I haven't heard TT, but I doubt it is as innovative as Minority Report, as magical as Chamber of Secrets, or as sassy as Catch Me if You Can.

And even though I am not a fan of AOTC the score, I find nothing in FOTR as powerful as the Confrontation with Count Dooku, and End Titles in that score.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

And even though I am not a fan of AOTC the score, I find nothing in FOTR as powerful as the Confrontation with Count Dooku, and End Titles in that score.

Who cares?

Stefancos- who's starting 2003 by not sugarcoating his opinion anymore.

[Guest]

But as far as musical value is concerned,  

Howard Shore hasn't done anything special... yet.

What exactly do you mean by special?.

[Chris ChrusherComix 46]

Well guys (and gal), I plan to FINALLY watch the DVDs tomorrow...

I am BETTING that I will like the movie... but dislike the music. There is a chance that if the score works well enough n the movie, I will change my mind, but the FOTR CD itself was as boring as watching a puddle evaporate.

[Morn 8]

What if it's a fast evaporating puddle with rum in it?