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Unique "Williams-isms"?


mrbellamy

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I've seen so many comments and diatribes on how John Williams constantly "steals" from other composers, and the counter-argument is typically that John Williams has produced so much original music that these accusations don't bear much scrutiny. I agree, certainly, but my question is: what specifically makes his music so unique? What orchestral colors, melodic shapes, or other particular techniques has he introduced, perfected, combined, or otherwise made his own in such a way that they are unmistakably Williams, rather than Mussorgsky, Stravinsky, Prokofiev, or Ravel? Is it any one thing, or an accumulation of small things? While I can certainly differentiate "the sound of John Williams" from other composers, I struggle to articulate exactly what that sound entails.

So what is it, really, that makes John Williams...well, John Williams?

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DSM-V: Diagnostic criteria for 'Williams-ism':

- Likes chromatically shifting thirds and triads (i.e. Attacking a Star Destroyer from ESTB) - a signature he in turn developed from Shostakovitch and Herrmann.

- Use of the octatonic, Hungarian, and harmonic minor scales for melodic content, and/or generating clusters from them.

- Strong reliance on aleatoric writing, extended orchestral techniques and tone clusters for suspense and horror.

- Tendency towards quartal and extended jazz harmonies, as in the tradition of Roy Harris, Howard Hanson, Sir William Walton, Henry Mancini, Leonard Rosenman and Alex North.

If patient fulfills all of the above, he is John Williams. :john:

;)

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Wow, Datameister, I'm mightily impressed. You know your stuff!

This is where I wish had the music-technical knowledge, which is a huge, gaping hole in my music interest. :(

I can hear all the Williams-isms when I listen to his music, but I have a hard type putting them into word with only adjectives at my disposal.

But much has been said already. The flute triplets, the woodwind runs, the reliance on classical forms such as the scherzo.

To me, personally, my favourite aspect of his sound is his ability to conjure up what I call "the religious sound", a very spiritual, pastoral sound perhaps slightly reminiscent of Vaughan Williams, and especially evident in his writing for solo woodwinds. "Restoration" from JANE EYRE, "The Face of Pan" from HOOK, "The Final Duel" from RETURN OF THE JEDI, The ark theme from RAIDERS, the grail theme from LAST CRUSADE, "Somewhere in My Memory" from HOME ALONE, "Meeting with Mao" from NIXON, "Angela's Prayer" from ANGELA'S ASHES and so on. THIS is the primary reason why he is my favourite composer, not the busy action music and fanfares. His approach to this sound is IMO stronger than any other commposer who have ventured into similar territory, even the English composers.

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I take it someone (probably Data) has already mentioned how he always likes to end his concert suits/arrangements and end credits with some sort of orchestral blast. Sometimes it's pompous and grand, other times it's quirky and playful, but almost always that final blast of orchestral power is there, which he obviously adores.

Check out my technical prose!

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I take it someone (probably Data) has already mentioned how he always likes to end his concert suits/arrangements and end credits with some sort of orchestral blast. Sometimes it's pompous and grand, other times it's quirky and playful, but almost always that final blast of orchestral power is there, which he obviously adores.

Check out my technical prose!

I don't think you can say nearly every concert suite ends in such a fashion. I think for adventure movies, fantasy films and the like Williams uses these grandiose orchestral finales but it really depends on the piece he has written. E.g. Cinque's theme from Amistad, Theme from Angela's Ashes, Theme from Jurassic Park do not contain a loud finale. In more lyrical pieces he likes to end with that delicate and elegant harp finish, few notes trailing into silence. :)

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What would you say in terms of rhythm?

this is always the most overlooked part when someone describes a composer's style..

For example, regarding Williams i would say these 3 things:

- he favours syncopations (obviously coming from his jazz background)

- I would say that his favourite rhythmic value is the triplet that we find in most of his themes in the melody, and after that, the dotted rhythmic values either in the melody or accompaniment..

-long value in notes that constitute a big leap, and smaller note values in notes that are used to fill in between (e.g. E.T. theme, Star Wars theme)

What else can anyone say about rhythm? :conf:

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There's the fact that so many of his themes start with a perfect fifth - Star Wars, Schindler's List, 4 different themes in E.T. the Island theme (?) from Jurassic Park, Superman themes, the first theme in harry's wondrous world after the introduction.

Then there's Indiana Jones - most of which themes are based on the interval of a fourth. The main raiders march theme's 3rd and 4th notes, but also the march of the slave children, henry's theme, the grail theme, and the theme for the nazi's in TLC all begin with a fourth.

Just a little thing I noticed.

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Thank you for these great remarks (mainly about orchestration).

I would add a few things about his chord progressions.

- He starts a lot of his themes (in major keys) with the first degree followed by a major chord on the second degree (keeping the previous tonic). Ex: CMaj then DMaj/C. You can hear it in : Flying Theme from E.T., the 2 bars motif that opens and closes E.T., Fawkes the Phoenix, the second theme from Jurassic Park, Anakin's Theme, Yoda's Theme, Love Theme from Superman, Theme from The Lost World.

- It's been mentioned already but he likes parallel triads as a chord progression for his major themes. You can hear it in : Abandoned in the Woods from A.I., the theme you hear in Searching for E.T., the second part of Hedwig's Theme, Main Theme from Seven Years in Tibet, Emperor's Theme from Star Wars, Jabba's Theme from Star Wars, Theme from The Lost World.

- He massively uses the 4th degree minor in a major key (borrowed chord from the minor key, of course). You have it in : Main Theme from Born on the Fourth of July, Flight to Neverland, Marion's Theme from Raiders of the Lost Ark, Across the Stars from Star Wars, Princess Leia's Theme from Star Wars, Yoda's Theme, Luke and Leia from Star Wars, Han Solo and the Princess from Star Wars, Love Theme from The Terminal.

- I would also say that he often uses sharp 9 dominant in a non jazz context (thanks to his jazz background, I guess...)

So those are the things I noticed...

Anyway, I hope it makes sense to you :)

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The question depends on which John Williams we're talking about, John williams of A New Hope or John Williams of Memoirs Of A Geisha?

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Wow, this is turning into a really fantastic discussion. Thanks for the contributions, everyone! Keep 'em coming!

EDIT: On the topic of chords, Williams is a big fan of sevenths. Major sevenths, minor sevenths, minor major sevenths, you name it. They show up everywhere, in all sorts of voicing. And for starting intervals, love themes often start with a sixth - Leia's theme, Marion's theme, Across the Stars, Han and Leia, etc.

We can also note, of course, that Williams is a fan of long melody lines. While some of his themes are short, many of them are quite lengthy, with A and B themes that get treated to different variations in the score and in concert suites.

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What about Williams' love for diminished 2nd/2nd minor?

(not sure which one is the correct, sorry... my musical theory study are a bit rusty :))

It's all over many of his scores to underline/enhance tension and uncertainty (for example: "The Magic Tree" from TESB, when Vader appears. Or the beginning of "The Duel", again in TESB).

EDIT: I see Data already mentioned it :)

* In dissonant passages, Williams likes to use an unusual chord that I'm not sure what to call. An example would be (in ascending order) C-Ab-B. Williams will stack this sort of chord against other chords in all kinds of ways to create various sorts of tension.

Data, your analysis is really wonderful. Kudos to you!

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Yeah, he does like minor seconds, generally speaking. And thanks, I'm glad you liked it!

Another thing I thought of - Williams loves high cluster chords in the strings for tension and eeriness. Sometimes part of it will be a cluster chord, part of it will be a juxtaposition of two completely unrelated chords...all kinds of weird stuff. Give it to divisi violins and violas (often with subtle synth doubling), and you've got a very creepy sound. Take a listen to the end of the Jurassic Park end credits, for instance. As with all of these, there are plenty of other composers who do similar things, of course, but Williams does have his own style, especially when you take all these things into account together.

I've also been trying to find the right way to articulate an observation about the way Williams' music is vertically structured, about the way he organizes the different instruments to work together, but I'm having a tough time figuring out how to say it.

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To me, personally, my favourite aspect of his sound is his ability to conjure up what I call "the religious sound", a very spiritual, pastoral sound perhaps slightly reminiscent of Vaughan Williams, and especially evident in his writing for solo woodwinds. "Restoration" from JANE EYRE, "The Face of Pan" from HOOK, "The Final Duel" from RETURN OF THE JEDI, The ark theme from RAIDERS, the grail theme from LAST CRUSADE, "Somewhere in My Memory" from HOME ALONE, "Meeting with Mao" from NIXON, "Angela's Prayer" from ANGELA'S ASHES and so on. THIS is the primary reason why he is my favourite composer, not the busy action music and fanfares. His approach to this sound is IMO stronger than any other commposer who have ventured into similar territory, even the English composers.

:nod:

I would add Light of the Force as my personal favorite.

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I'm musically illiterate so I just know it's Williams when I hear it (like CoS cues attributed to Ross that are really Williams)

It's like the notes , orchestrations and little flourishes have to come out exactly right

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Would anyone admit though that Williams doesn't have a SO distinctive style (to the people who don't know much about film music) as let's say Danny Elfman or Thomas Newman?

Of course I don't want to diminish his quality with that statement, he's number 1 for me!

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Would anyone admit though that Williams doesn't have a SO distinctive style (to the people who don't know much about film music) as let's say Danny Elfman or Thomas Newman?

nope, Williams is as distinctive as you can get in film music.

I usually know he composed something after hearing a few seconds

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Would anyone admit though that Williams doesn't have a SO distinctive style (to the people who don't know much about film music) as let's say Danny Elfman or Thomas Newman?

nope, Williams is as distinctive as you can get in film music.

I usually know he composed something after hearing a few seconds

I was referring mostly to the people that aren't film music fans..

E.g. a friend of mine perhaps could not tell if a theme is Williams or Goldsmith, but could easily recognise Elfman..

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* In dissonant passages, Williams likes to use an unusual chord that I'm not sure what to call. An example would be (in ascending order) C-Ab-B. Williams will stack this sort of chord against other chords in all kinds of ways to create various sorts of tension.

I know exactly what you mean, and it's hard to articulate. In my standing, it's a direct consequence of those non-diatonic scales Williams loves. Especially the harmonic, octatonic, augmented and Hungarian minors, think of that pitch collection (0-8-11)in the context of a C harmonic minor. That's C-D-Eb-F-G-Ab-B. The C of course being the tonic, while the Ab's the flattened sixth, and the B's the raised seventh/leading tone - that interval between the Ab and B is called an 'Augmented 2nd' (because a A-B is a second, and it's stretched or 'augmented' by the Ab being flattened.

It also fits in an octatonic (C-D-Eb-F-Gb-Ab-A-B), Hungarian minor (C-D-Eb-F#-G-Ab-B) and augmented scale (C-D#-E-G-Ab-B). All found in throughout the maestro's work. Sometimes even thrown against each other for maximum effect.

With a few exceptions (i.e. those beautiful liturgical phases Thor cites) - Williams's action and suspense writing tends to be more linear (think North and Goldsmith) than vertical (Herrmann, Rosza and Barry). Meaning the musical development is not usually derived out of a succession of chords, but voices built on several layers. Often polyphonic and heterophonic - lots of interacting voices, rather than homophonic - except for most of his themes.

The best way to find out what pitch collection/s (this is a serial term, but appropriate for the way Williams works) he's using, is too look at those woodwind and string runs, and harp pedal markings. They are the key. Only at Williams's most dissonant writing will these be useless.

Though if you want a vertical/harmonic term - just call it a 'modified' or 'suspended' C minor/Major 7th. Missing the 3rd (Eb), and with a raised 5th (G -> G#/Ab).

Enharmonic spellings be damned.

EDIT: I hoped you'd show up, Prometheus. Time to use Google to learn some new music theory terms. :lol: EDIT AGAIN: Gasp! You're so right about the octatonic scale. The Hungarian scale seems most common when he's going for a so-called "ethnic" or non-Western feel. Have you noticed it in other contexts, as well?

Thanks! It's usually a broad sound for conjuring a suspenseful or pensive atmosphere. The great unknown. Not as harsh on the ear as chromatic or octatonic clusters, so it's a more universal potential. Either created through ad lib harp glissandi or chords.

--------- Also of note, is Williams's interest in polytonality, which can be traced back to what Herrmann and North gained from Stravinsky, Bartok, Milhaud, Ives, Strauss, Shostakovitch etc... His use of this in JAWS is well documented, but the opening chord in the Main Titles from JURASSIC PARK is another perfect example. Much like Herrmann's 'stinger' chords through THE DAY THE EARTH STOOD STILL - it's two overlapping harmonies (bitonality) - E minor 7th in third inversion (D-E-G-B) and F# (F#-A#-C#) with a low E in the bass - creating a sort of 'cluster' sound, because the intervals are closely packed in the same octave. That is what the SATB (soprano, alto, tenor, baritone/bass) choir is singing, sotto voce.

Very threatening yet mystical sonority (especially with the synth 'brassy snaps' and when the Shakuhatchi enters with the 4 carnivore motif, its second note (F) breaching the bitonality), and has a long association with science fiction. Strings and synth doubling.

Apart from the D, the opening chord in the TDTESS's Prelude is very similar - F# superimposed over Em. Though it's deliberately hard to identify due to the studio effects (namely tape reversal) and theremin glissandi.

What about Williams' love for diminished 2nd/2nd minor?

You mean the minor second interval? He uses them for great effect in chromatic tone clusters. Most extensively in CLOSE ENCOUNTERS.

- He massively uses the 4th degree minor in a major key (borrowed chord from the minor key, of course). You have it in : Main Theme from Born on the Fourth of July, Flight to Neverland, Marion's Theme from Raiders of the Lost Ark, Across the Stars from Star Wars, Princess Leia's Theme from Star Wars, Yoda's Theme, Luke and Leia from Star Wars, Han Solo and the Princess from Star Wars, Love Theme from The Terminal.

You've got it the wrong way round there. The 4 degree minor you're talking about, is actually the tonic. The major chord is the dominant (major chord built on the 5th). That's called an authentic cadence. Standard dominant-tonic relationship, that only started to subside in the romantic era.

That's a result of the melodic minor scale (C-D-Eb-F-G-A-B) - John Barry used this a lot to form minor/Major 7ths, minor 6ths, minor 6/9s, and so on. Especially in his Bond scores.

The natural minor scale/Ionian mode is the standard one we all know (C-D-Eb-F-G-Ab-Bb). Using that gives a less 'classical' feel of the common practice period, and one more associated with Western folk music, and some jazz.

----- Another observation is from Bill Wrobel, who stated than Williams's music tends to be more intellectual and sophisticated in construction than Bernard Herrmann or later John Barry, but speaks less directly to the heart. I'd probably agree. That's not to say Williams's can't be incredibly moving, but there's a different type of temperament to the man and his music, that distinguishes him.

I'd call John Williams an ascetic hippy, in the best sense. Reserved, religiously devout, and even tempered. Much easier to work with than Herrmann, yet with a less defined, strong, black/white outlook. That all expresses in his music.

The aleatoricism ('whatever... man. Just hang loose with that horn.' 'I want the sound to be far out. I don't care how! Weird hissing noise!') - being part of that. ;)

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Fascinating analysis, Prometheus - thanks for that. :) You're absolutely right about the structure of his action music. He tends to have a number of discrete musical ideas going on at once, most of which are fitting some sort of harmonic framework, but it's very much about the horizontal motion of it. This is especially true in his more modern styles of action music, which can often feature a staggering panoply of different moving lines.

I'm glad you brought up polytonality, as well. I think I mentioned something about juxtaposing unrelated chords at some point, but I was having trouble remembering that word, haha. Yeah, I find that some of Williams' most fascinating passages involve pretty heavy doses of that. You find it all over the place. One example I really like is the "ghostly" synth stuff heard in "The Library Scene", from HP:SS. It's all on one synth part, with the left hand and the right hand playing very different chords, often moving in opposite directions. Already a very cool musical idea, but then you throw in that eerie synth patch, and it's just perfect. In a very different vein, there are some spectacularly dissonant woodwind/xylophone/piano chords early in ESB's "The Snow Battle" (the cue that starts with the unused low piano stuff). For instance, Williams will stack an E minor chord over a totally unrelated fifth, C# and G#...or F# major over a fourth, E and A. These are played staccato, and there's a lot of stuff going on, so there's no way you can pick out all the individual notes just from listening, but the effect is a chilling clatter of sonic messiness. Then there are those richly disturbing string chords, like the one during the Jurassic Park logo that you mentioned. Crazy stuff.

Here's another thing I thought of today. When we ask what constitutes the Williams sound, the techniques and tendencies in his work are an important part of the answer...but so are the techniques and tendencies NOT in his work. You typically don't hear Goldsmith's fondness for I-v chord progressions, or Giacchino's constant use of small musical building blocks, or Horner's penchant for New Agey synths and vocalizations and harmonies, or Elfman's troubled twinklings, or what have you. Maybe this seems trivial, but it really is important to note that part of a composer's sound comes from what they don't do.

In terms of structure and whatnot, Williams has sometimes tended to develop miniature themes or motifs for specific cues or sequences. This is especially noticeable in his action scoring, and it's a nice way to lend a sense of unity to what could otherwise become a frantic mess of unrelated parts. Of course, he does include statements of major themes in his action music, and some parts are truly unrelated to any other content in the score, but many excellent Williams action cues do indeed feature their own little unique melodic ideas. I don't hear many other composers doing this...most will just present action-packed statements of relevant leitmotifs, surrounded by material that fits the onscreen action but doesn't necessarily have a tremendous amount of unity. Sometimes that's the most appropriate way of doing things, and sometimes Williams does exactly that, but there's something special about those short-lived mini-themes that always leave you wanting more.

Filmmusic, I think you raise an interesting question about the strength or uniqueness of Williams' musical voice. I personally would say that the work of Elfman or Newman exhibits less stylistic variety. On the one hand, that establishes a more easily recognizable voice...but on the other hand, it makes the different scores rather more redundant. I'm inclined to think that in film scoring, having a unique musical voice is important, but when taken to an extreme, I get bored quickly. Williams strikes just the right balance for me - I can typically recognize his work pretty easily, but there's still so much variety within his oeuvre that it's difficult for me to get bored.

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Wow, I had forgotten how awful Yoda looked in TPM

And Goldsmith doesn't have that much of a distinctive sound to me

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And Goldsmith doesn't have that much of a distinctive sound to me

Jerry Goldsmith was the ultimate chameleon film composer, though even then, he does have his own distinct sound.

Lyrical solo trumpet passages, i-IV progressions, low piano/synth ostinati, frequent metrical changes (i.e. 7/8 to 13/8 to 5/4), fondness for jazz harmonies (i.e. Lydian chords, major 7ths, suspended 4ths, minor 9ths etc...), string pizzicati (often with harp), studio echo (tape echo, MXR echoplex, or electric flutes w/echo and delay), septuplet and sextuplet runs in winds and strings, tutti horn triplet figures, fourths and fifths (i.e. the Klingon theme), snarling trombone glissandi, use of major 7ths and flat 9ths/augmented octave (intervals common in serialist works, due to them being inversions of minor 2nds), ad lib vocalistions from human voices, whole tone/augmented clusters (the harmony that opens the original Main Title to ALIEN), low horns playing 1/4 tone pitch bends, pizzicato and arco between bridge and tailpiece on strings, key clicks on woodwinds, tapping mouthpieces on trombones and tubas, col legno and snap pizz, guiro, cricket clickers, angklungs, cuicas, vibraphone w/ motor on, 1/4 tone vibrato on strings, various 'prepared piano' effects (i.e. wire brush glissandi, various mallets on the lowest strings, paper or staples to alter the sound), lowest octave of the piano, Balinese and Javanese gongs, muted strings, flutter-tonguing brass, rub rods, boo bams, bowed tremolo string clusters, static pedal point with shifting major triads above, clusters that aren't necessarily contained within one octave (i.e. the recurrent 'idée fixe' chord in THE OMEN - two juxtaposed quartal chords: G#-A#-C#-D# below and C-D-G-A above, or white note cluster in one octave, and black notes in the other) etc...

The sheer stress of having to write so much music under short time constraints, or the appeal of the familiar, means that one will fallback on certain tried-and-true techniques and work methods.

In a very different vein, there are some spectacularly dissonant woodwind/xylophone/piano chords early in ESB's "The Snow Battle" (the cue that starts with the unused low piano stuff). For instance, Williams will stack an E minor chord over a totally unrelated fifth, C# and G#...or F# major over a fourth, E and A. These are played staccato, and there's a lot of stuff going on, so there's no way you can pick out all the individual notes just from listening, but the effect is a chilling clatter of sonic messiness.

Yeah, that's pretty neat. I think it's Ab-Bb-B-D-E-G (octatonic cluster) to Bb-B-C-Db-F#-A (another one a half-step up, though this time that added B gives it a jagged 4-note chromatic cluster), and back to the first chord. Startling device - especially considering it never reappears again in the recorded score.

Filmmusic, I think you raise an interesting question about the strength or uniqueness of Williams' musical voice. I personally would say that the work of Elfman or Newman exhibits less stylistic variety. On the one hand, that establishes a more easily recognizable voice..

I'd argue that it's not they don't exhibit stylistic variety, but that they don't have much of musical personality, or craft. A self-assuredness and mastery of their own idiom that the greats had in spades.

To be honest, I think John Williams could do a Danny Elfman or Thomas Newman pastiche, and make it more compelling and re-listenable than the real thing.

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I would love to spend more time here tomorrow or as soon as I get a chance, but this is a fun discussion so I can't wait til then...

Generally, one of the things I love about Williams' approach to a score is that he devises a few harmonic tricks that give the individual score a unique flavor so that it's quickly recognizable as "that" film's music. Sometimes this isn't much more than a series of harmonic progressions, or even just a few unique chords that are used in a certain way. This also includes other elements, such as melody and even orchestration - and sometimes it's even a "given," based on some strong ethnic theme in the film itself, like "Schindler's List" or "Memoirs of a Geisha" - but even then there will be those two or three basic ideas that form much of the score's nucleus.

I like what you said, Data, about what's "not" there, because another thing I appreciate about Williams' writing is how he uses the right chord for the job, but doesn't get stuck in one harmonic mindset for the whole time. He is a master at sometimes using a chromatically altered chord, a mixture chord, or even chord extension(s) in just the right spot to give the sound that extra emphasis: llike using Major 7th chords for much of the "Raiders March", or the 11th chords that are the big climax chords at the end of the Superman theme, or the Neapolitan chord that supports the top note of the Raiders theme. It's as little bit similar to how Sousa always employed a little mode mixture and threw in a (major) bVI chord just before the end of the last strain in his marches. The sudden but delicate harmonic change is a good way to keep the listener's ear from getting too bored (as happens when you just stay in one key too long), but is smooth enough not to be unsettling. Kind of like a good glass of Jack Daniels! :lol:

Speaking of polytonality, one thing I've noticed in Williams' use of it is his frequent tendency to treat the harmonies differently. In some instances, for example, he'll be treating one tonality as block harmonies and full chord, while the other tonality is moving in a more linear style, such as a one-note contrapuntal line that emphasizes the key notes of the 2nd tonality (the ones that distinguish it from the 1st tonality). Obviously he doesn't always do this, but I've noticed it a bit.

The octatonic scale is a very fun harmonic tool as it allows you to go for long periods of time without tonicizing anything until just when you need it...a similar idea to all the mediant relations like Goldsmith used all over the place, especially in ST:TMP. A fun thing about the ocatonic scale is that the linear harmonies typically want to be in minor thirds or tritones, while overall the real idea is often "dissonance is beautiful!" (haha) Since working in octatonic means that the tonic chord is a diminished chord (and you can form a diminished chord on each scale degree), it makes it easy to write music that is unsettling, including lengthy action sequences. You can even use the octatonic scale in a lyrical way, but Williams uses it frequently for action sequences and other passages where there is supposed to be turmoil afoot. In octatonic scale you still get 4 major chords out of those 8 notes, so it's easy to hit a brilliant, major-chord climax when you need to. The Snow Battle that you mentioned is a good example Data, as is "Battle in the Forest" from ROTJ. Also, the final movement from Bartok's "Concerto for Orchestra" is a good piece to study the use of octatonic harmony, and Scriabin's Prelude No. 3 from Preludes.

Well, time to feed the child. I look forward to more of this later...

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Very impressive analysis of Goldsmith's techniques, Prometheus! love0030.gif I can't profess to be SUPER familiar with the full breadth of the man's work (sadly), but much of what you've said jives with my experience.

As for ESB, this is the passage I'm thinking of:

esbexample.gif

The chords you're describing sound quite similar, though, and whether or not you're describing the same passage I am, I wouldn't be surprised if they showed up somewhere in Williams' work. Such delicious dissonances.

Glad to see you joining the fray, airmanjerm! Can't wait to read more of your contributions after you attend to such low-priority tasks as caring for your offspring. ;)

Generally speaking, I will say that I feel much less knowledgeable about Williams' harmonic devices than about his orchestrational devices, so I would selfishly plead anyone who knows about this stuff to keep it coming! It's an area I'd really like to learn more about. I have a good ear and a pretty decent understanding of basic music theory (and then some, I guess), but Williams' music frequently becomes so harmonically advanced and complex that I have a hard time studying anything beyond his orchestration choices. Doesn't help that my ability to quickly sight-read pitches is rather subpar, haha.

EDIT: I was listening to some Stravinsky, and it reminded me - as many others have noted, Williams borrows plenty of general ideas and tonalities and overall approaches from Stravinsky. But when he's in Stravinsky mode, the thing that seems to most strongly dissociate his work from "the real thing" is a slightly leaner, more focused, more tightly organized approach. Stravinsky would mash all the instruments together in absolutely insane, polyrhythmic, almost random ways, but when Williams wants to achieve a similar effect, he's a little more deliberate about grouping the instruments into a smaller number of discrete musical ideas. I'm sure part of this is simply due to the time constraints (and limits of the audience's ability to discern musical details in the final mix) associated with film scoring, but it does help differentiate between his music and Stravinsky's. And, of course, Williams rarely stays in Stravinsky mode for too long. He typically returns to more conventional, accessible, consonant tonalities before too long.

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Very impressive analysis of Goldsmith's techniques, Prometheus! love0030.gif I can't profess to be SUPER familiar with the full breadth of the man's work (sadly), but much of what you've said jives with my experience.

It was alright? To be honest it felt more like writing out a shopping list. :lol:

As for ESB, this is the passage I'm thinking of:

esbexample.gif

Aha! That's some sweet polytonality, though I can't make out the accidentals clearly. Looking closely I'm guessing it's Db-G-Ab-B-Eb-G to Cb-F-Gb-A-D-F. In other words Dbm/Em -> Cbm/Dm with cluster voicing. What you're dealing with is a bitonal, vertical manifestation of 'chromatic mediants' - incidentally a very common tool in film scores.

The chords you're describing sound quite similar, though, and whether or not you're describing the same passage I am, I wouldn't be surprised if they showed up somewhere in Williams' work. Such delicious dissonances.

I was attempting to describe the shrill chords at bar 8 and 16-17, played by 2 pianos, xylophones, oboes and muted trumpets.

You know? I love how ignorant the academe is in regard to John Williams's STAR WARS scores. Believing them to be old school, backward-looking, regressive works, that take inspiration (or just steal) from Holst, Mahler, early Stravinsky, Tchaikovsky, Prokofiev, Korngold, Bartok etc... when they're in fact there's many dissonant passages that resemble concert works being written at the same time, or a few decades prior, from Scelsi, Penderecki, Lutoslawski, Cowell, Boulez, Rihm, Nono, Varèse, Messiaen, Ligeti, Carter, to Cage.

I also love Williams weaves atonal soundscapes in the Jabba's Palace cues in ROTJ, and integrates that with those awesome low tutti horns, tuba and ARP 2600 filter sweeps.

Generally speaking, I will say that I feel much less knowledgeable about Williams' harmonic devices than about his orchestrational devices, so I would selfishly plead anyone who knows about this stuff to keep it coming! It's an area I'd really like to learn more about. I have a good ear and a pretty decent understanding of basic music theory (and then some, I guess), but Williams' music frequently becomes so harmonically advanced and complex that I have a hard time studying anything beyond his orchestration choices. Doesn't help that my ability to quickly sight-read pitches is rather subpar, haha.

Seriously, if you've got any more questions - feel free to ask. I'm still learning too. :)

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Aha! That's some sweet polytonality, though I can't make out the accidentals clearly. Looking closely I'm guessing it's Db-G-Ab-B-Eb-G to Cb-F-Gb-A-D-F. In other words Dbm/Em -> Cbm/Dm with cluster voicing. What you're dealing with is a bitonal, vertical manifestation of 'chromatic mediants' - incidentally a very common tool in film scores.

Make the Eb an E natural in the first chord, I agree. :D I never made the connection that those could be interpreted as Dbm/Em and so forth - d'oh! - but you're absolutely right. The chords that follow are also based on similarly stacked chromatic mediants, although those use major chords instead of minor chords (F#/A and F/Ab, respectively). Very cool stuff.

I was attempting to describe the shrill chords at bar 8 and 16-17, played by 2 pianos, xylophones, oboes and muted trumpets.

Ah, yes. Similarly excellent stuff.

You know? I love how ignorant the academe is in regard to John Williams's STAR WARS scores. Believing them to be old school, backward-looking, regressive works, that take inspiration (or just steal) from Holst, Mahler, early Stravinsky, Tchaikovsky, Prokofiev, Korngold, Bartok etc... when they're in fact there's many dissonant passages that resemble concert works being written at the same time, or a few decades prior, from Scelsi, Penderecki, Lutoslawski, Cowell, Boulez, Rihm, Nono, Varèse, Messiaen, Ligeti, Carter, to Cage.

I also love Williams weaves atonal soundscapes in the Jabba's Palace cues in ROTJ, and integrates that with those awesome low tutti horns, tuba and ARP 2600 filter sweeps.

Seriously. It's a pity the man's work in general isn't taken more seriously in the academic world. I remember taking a Beethoven class early in college, and there was an amazing grand piano that the professor sometimes used for demonstrative purposes. A couple of times, I got to play for a few minutes after class, which was absolutely delightful for someone like me who grew up with an old, out-of-tune upright and who didn't usually have access to anything better in college. But at one point on one of these occasions, I played a bit of Williams, and I got a snide "Oh no, not John Williams" remark from the guy who managed the equipment and instruments and whatnot. That ignorantly arrogant attitude toward the man's work - particularly his more popular works - is contagious and most unfortunate.

Seriously, if you've got any more questions - feel free to ask. I'm still learning too. :)

I don't know that I have any specific questions at the moment, but I'm definitely enjoying all the observations. :D

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Ooh ooh, another orchestration thing. Williams often uses low triads in the bassoons and/or bass clarinets for quiet, furtively creepy music. He'll use maybe two bassoons, a contrabassoon, one or two Bb bass clarinets, and an Eb contrabass clarinet. It's a murky yet rich timbre that he puts to great use.

Another thing Williams has done for big, brassy themes like the Raiders March or the Imperial March - give the melody to all three or four trumpets, and then double it in all three or four trombones an octave lower. And we would be fools to ignore the prominent use of ostinati in both cases, as well as many other themes and cues.

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To be honest, we might've learned something about Williams-isms in this thread but I still don't know what's so 'special' about John Williams. What do these technical analyses tell us about his mind, soul and heart? Is his voice determended by a few seconds of Stravinsky here and there, octatonic or Hungarian scales for melody, tone clusters for horror and a tendency towards quartal and extended jazz harmonies? To be honest, it sounds like a recipe. We can all copy the recipe or the formula but that doesn't mean we can be John Williams. I somehow miss a more spiritual and philisophical explanation.

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Yes. If his musical fingerprints depended only on the technique used, them plenty of other composers could sound exactly like John Williams.

There's something that lives beneath the notes though, that really defines his voice.

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I think that's a perfectly valid point. We can talk about techniques that he's tended to use till we're blue in the face (fingers?), but what ultimately makes Williams' music so special is the heart and mind behind the music - the way he combines techniques like these in novel ways that tug at the heartstrings with such unique strength. Ultimately, that's the whole point of music in general, but unfortunately, it can be very difficult to truly quantize and analyze and understand without resorting to these sort of music-theory-based discussions.

In other words, I think all of these things matter quite a bit, and based on the years that Williams has spent studying and synthesizing them, I'll bet he does too...but without the inimitable musical voice that some marriage of nature and nurture has instilled in him - without that intangible core of Williams-ness to bring all these ideas together - we wouldn't be here having this conversation, because his oeuvre would be a bunch of applied techniques, not a smorgasbord of scrumptious emotions.

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I agree - these are general descriptions of certain techniques that have turned up in certain passages. Just reading them would never give someone an idea of what Williams' music sounds like, or if it's any good. But that doesn't mean it can't be useful.

If you have more meaningful analyses to share, I look forward to reading them!

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To be honest, we might've learned something about Williams-isms in this thread but I still don't know what's so 'special' about John Williams. What do these technical analyses tell us about his mind, soul and heart? Is his voice determended by a few seconds of Stravinsky here and there, octatonic or Hungarian scales for melody, tone clusters for horror and a tendency towards quartal and extended jazz harmonies? To be honest, it sounds like a recipe. We can all copy the recipe or the formula but that doesn't mean we can be John Williams. I somehow miss a more spiritual and philisophical explanation.

You're right, it is a recipe. But it's one that only John Williams knows how to pull off, at all the right dramatic moments, that makes the music his.

Just like systematically listing the behaviour and habits of a person, doesn't tell you much about what's going inside. What impulses and creative muses results in those notes, and those 'markers.'

Though I did give my thoughts here briefly:

I'd call John Williams an ascetic hippy, in the best sense. Reserved, religiously devout, and even tempered. Much easier to work with than Herrmann, yet with a less defined, strong, black/white outlook. That all expresses in his music.
There's something that lives beneath the notes though, that really defines his voice.

That's John Williams.

While you're spot-on with the recipe comment, that doesn't mean this thread should turn into a horoscope reading!

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Someone could use all the techniques that were listed, and still end up with something that does not sound anything like Williams. I agree with Alex' classification of a "recipe".

Or ... some might and do say that Williams is nothing more than a composer who constantly steals from the work of German and Russian composers but we, the fans, still hear something unmistakably unique ... something we can only get from listening to John Williams and not Stravinsky or Prokofiev. And it's a uniqueness we recognize from the beginning of his career all the way to Tintin.

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I'd call John Williams an ascetic hippy, in the best sense. Reserved, religiously devout, and even tempered. Much easier to work with than Herrmann, yet with a less defined, strong, black/white outlook. That all expresses in his music.

Nice, though I'm not sure were the "religiously devout" comes from? In interviews Williams has never really stated that he holds too strong religious beliefs. Though I would definitely say a measure of spirituality is certainly ingrained in him.

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Someone could use all the techniques that were listed, and still end up with something that does not sound anything like Williams. I agree with Alex' classification of a "recipe".

Or ... some might and do say that Williams is nothing more than a composer who constantly steals from the work of German and Russian composers but we, the fans, still hear something unmistakably unique ...

But that's exactly what Datameister's posts and mine have been about. Disproving that he only steals from composers in the classical repertoire, and doesn't have a voice of his own. All of the octatonic, aleatoric, cluster, parallel series stuff - does exactly that. Piece by piece, one by one.

Don't get me wrong. That isn't the be all and end all, but it's certainly something reasonably concrete.

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