The Ultimate James Horner's Plagiarism List

[thx99 1,740]

At ~2:41:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eU8QFay2w7E&feature=player_detailpage#t=161s

At ~3:18 (theme heard many times throughout the work):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SXDu3FkgwE&feature=player_detailpage#t=198s

[tharpdevenport 4]

An opera by Bejamin Britten called "Peter Grimes" vs. "The Journey of Natty Gann"

That terrific ascending three/four note motif in the cue "The Forest" of that has the soft woodwind (maybe a high key flute?) ... not only ripped off here, but he lifted the orchestrations, too!

The opera was kind of long, and in sections. It was disheartening to then here in the final section (as I recall) Goldsmith also lifted from Britten. As I recall, it was a theme from "Star Trek V: The Final Frontier", more specifically one from the "A Busy Man" cue. Unlike Horner, he attempted to vary and appropriately alter the orchestrations.

Throughout the cue:

No YT link to the Horner cue; sample on the old Intrada page, though.

[tharpdevenport 4]

"Willow's Theme"

[thx99 1,740]

Gustav Holst's "Jupiter" from The Planets (at 4:17):

Braveheart (at 2:31):

[Melange 446]

Mmm, can't seem to hear major similaritys in the examples THX99 has posted. He probably has a very good ear though.

With Goldsmith, listening to Ralph Vaughan William's 'Sinfonia antartica' often seems to bring up various hues of STMP : Vger,Cloud and Spock for me

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

With Goldsmith, listening to Ralph Vaughan William's 'Sinfonia antartica' often seems to bring up various hues of STMP : Vger,Cloud and Spock for me

And of course, Symphony No. 4 with the Klingon theme. I seem to remember Goldsmith saying in some interview it was his "Vaughan Williams score."

[ChrisAfonso 186]

From 0:42

From 2:28 and 5:56

One of these occasions where I initially thought "wow, great fanfare, Horner still got it", only to revert to "...or not. Hack." after hearing the Britten. Also, Britten's got a choir

In my opinion, Horner shows a real lack of respect for the original composers by copying things note-for-note. Such examples as the Glory/O Fortuna connection I don't find as offensive by far - there it's a stilistic reference, but he wrote his own, stirring music.

(On a side note, that single Troy track alone contains Britten, Vaughan-Williams/Tallis, and Shostakovich.)

[Jamesyboy 3]

There is also some of Shostakovich's 5th Symphony used in Patriot Games during the scene where Ryan etc. are watching the African camp raids via satellite.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,498]

An opera by Bejamin Britten called "Peter Grimes" vs. "The Journey of Natty Gann"

That terrific ascending three/four note motif in the cue "The Forest" of that has the soft woodwind (maybe a high key flute?) ... not only ripped off here, but he lifted the orchestrations, too!

The opera was kind of long, and in sections. It was disheartening to then here in the final section (as I recall) Goldsmith also lifted from Britten. As I recall, it was a theme from "Star Trek V: The Final Frontier", more specifically one from the "A Busy Man" cue. Unlike Horner, he attempted to vary and appropriately alter the orchestrations.

Throughout the cue:

No YT link to the Horner cue; sample on the old Intrada page, though.

If you want comparisoms with "Peter Grimes", then listen to the end title of "In Harm's Way".

P.s., "Peter Grimes" is an excellent opera!.

[Jean-Baptiste Martin 249]

Over 25 years, many things have already been said regarding the music of such a heroic fantasy reference, which itself became a classic in film music. To write on this score and to propose new elements of analysis may be likened to a real challenge, despite the rich discourse the composer developed in his music. The many references to classical pieces he used were often at the core of talks, but without ever delivering an in-depth analysis of their meaning. Here is the challenge of our article: to dig down to the the origins of the references, to examine the stories and the myths around them so as to better apprehend the art of quoting and of the cycle that James Horner is so keen on.

WILLOW: BETWEEN QUOTES
http://jameshorner-filmmusic.com/willow-between-quotes/

[publicist 4,643]

A bulgarian folksong is the source of the sweet Elora Danan. Who would've thought...

[ComposerEthan 8]

I'm curious as to what Horner has said about his plagiarism. Any links or quotes?

[Brónach 1,301]

That's a beautiful song.

[publicist 4,643]

I'm curious as to what Horner has said about his plagiarism. Any links or quotes?

Just read his quotes in the WILLOW link.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

"I am a musicologist, a doctor of music. Therefore I listened to, studied and analysed a lot of music. I also enjoy metaphors, the art of quoting and of cycles. The harmonic draft of the Willow score, and most particularly its spiritual side, came from such a cycle, from such mythology and music history that I was taught, and that I myself convey with my own emotions and compositions."

"For Willow The Sorcerer, my musicological discourse is again based upon opposition and what it represents: prophecy vs. darkness. Should the picture have given me the opportunity, I would have willingly integrated the chorale section that sings Confutatis Maledictus to emphasize on this notion of duel."

"George Lucas wanted a concise theme that was spontaneous and lyrical, which is Schumann's own definition of the Rhine's mythology. Diverting a typical 19^th Century German harmony, combining heroism and spirituality, and transposing them into a heroic-fantasy context was for me the ideal accompaniment for the adventures of these little characters."

"Along with the scenario, the score for Willow appeared to me as a work that must call upon the history of music, the "root" to create the necessary inspiration for the movie. It represents one of my constant claims and, in this specific sense, Willow is to me one of the most relevant balances between concert and cinema."

[Ollie 1,059]

A little side note.

About a year ago I'm channel surfing and come across a stop motion film on PBS. It looks like it was about 10 to 15 years old, the animation wasn't as good as Nightmare Before Christmas though. But I've come in during the middle of the film.

Tthe music is catching my attention, I didn't realize James Horner had worked on such a project. So I go to the IMDB to see if he did do this or someone is using his music for it.

As I'm in the process of looking the story on TV suddenly starts to look familiar....... I'm watching Peter And The Wolf........

[publicist 4,643]

The other side of the coin is of course Horner's steadfast refusal to openly mentioning or addressing the sources he is drawing from, not even the most glaring examples of it. That he's a serious nut shows an interview with a french magazine where he picks on other composers (Goldsmith in this instance) who he dubiously reprimands for 'hiding' their borrowings better (he names MASADA, BASIC INSTINCT and STAR TREK V).

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

That he's a serious nut shows an interview with a french magazine where he picks on other composers (Goldsmith in this instance) who he dubiously reprimands for 'hiding' their borrowings better (he names MASADA, BASIC INSTINCT and STAR TREK V).

Any scans of this?

[publicist 4,643]

It was published by a magazine called "Dreams to dream", i only found a german site featuring translated version: http://www.jameshorner.de/site/bio/iv.html

Google-translated:

The ostinato that accompanies this "Tabadabada, Tabadabada" makes me think of Strauss and not to CAPRICORN ONE, as I could read it in the U.S..

Oh really! That does not surprise me. With us, the music starts in 1930. People familiar with the classic "hits" before this time not. (Laughter) So, the ostinato of Strauss, Britten and Berlioz, for these people, these are all of the Goldsmith, North ... CAPRICORN TWO would make more sense! That's the whole problem of American musicians who only Korngold, Steiner, Rozsa know, but not enough Britten, Berlioz, Part In Europe, the ridiculous, but here the people think so.

I personally do not like that a man like Jerry Goldsmith must not admit that he has taken from the classics!

The Art of the citation can not be used in the United States. I should know about it.

But why insist that GLORY draws from Prokofiev, but conceal Rachmaninoff in MASADA, Britten in STAR TREK V, or even Shostakovich in BASIC INSTINCT, to name just a few obvious cases!

Those clear situations are not evident to us. You know, people like Britten, Satie or Paert not enjoy the reputation in the U.S. as in Europe. In addition, people who rely on certain classical composer quotes are rather dishonest people such as Jerry Goldsmith (who hide the quotes) in order to eliminate any problem of conscience. If I quote, 8 notes, it is because the topic that interests me, has 8 notes. Some would just take notes 7 and the last change and ascribe authorship. But the music history has not taught me this procedure. Quote does not cheat, you understand. You seem to have probably no good opinion of Jerry Goldsmith?

No, because for 10 years his music has become insignificant. What he has brought between 70 and 85 was amazing, but now it is only in the musical "touting".

You know that he has refused to conduct his theme for the next Oscars and for the ceremony itself, because he did not want to play the music from Titanic. In short, I am no longer the young man who was once his friend. I'm just a competitor for him.

(which of course is rich stuff coming from someone who takes great pains in not mentioning any of the composers he cribs from on his official releases; he only talks about this with an obscure french interviewer from a hardly-read magazine; one wonders why?)

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

(which of course is rich stuff coming from someone who takes great pains in not mentioning any of the composers he cribs from on his official releases; he only talks about this with an obscure french interviewer from a hardly-read magazine; one wonders why?)

Exactly. Even Horner tried to "hide" (read: butcher) his quote of Fantasia on a Theme of Thomas Tallis for the love theme of TROY by altering the last few notes.

[TownerFan 4,983]

It was published by a magazine called "Dreams to dream", i only found a german site featuring translated version: http://www.jameshorner.de/site/bio/iv.html

Google-translated:

The ostinato that accompanies this "Tabadabada, Tabadabada" makes me think of Strauss and not to CAPRICORN ONE, as I could read it in the U.S..

Oh really! That does not surprise me. With us, the music starts in 1930. People familiar with the classic "hits" before this time not. (Laughter) So, the ostinato of Strauss, Britten and Berlioz, for these people, these are all of the Goldsmith, North ... CAPRICORN TWO would make more sense! That's the whole problem of American musicians who only Korngold, Steiner, Rozsa know, but not enough Britten, Berlioz, Part In Europe, the ridiculous, but here the people think so.

I personally do not like that a man like Jerry Goldsmith must not admit that he has taken from the classics!

The Art of the citation can not be used in the United States. I should know about it.

But why insist that GLORY draws from Prokofiev, but conceal Rachmaninoff in MASADA, Britten in STAR TREK V, or even Shostakovich in BASIC INSTINCT, to name just a few obvious cases!

Those clear situations are not evident to us. You know, people like Britten, Satie or Paert not enjoy the reputation in the U.S. as in Europe. In addition, people who rely on certain classical composer quotes are rather dishonest people such as Jerry Goldsmith (who hide the quotes) in order to eliminate any problem of conscience. If I quote, 8 notes, it is because the topic that interests me, has 8 notes. Some would just take notes 7 and the last change and ascribe authorship. But the music history has not taught me this procedure. Quote does not cheat, you understand. You seem to have probably no good opinion of Jerry Goldsmith?

No, because for 10 years his music has become insignificant. What he has brought between 70 and 85 was amazing, but now it is only in the musical "touting".

You know that he has refused to conduct his theme for the next Oscars and for the ceremony itself, because he did not want to play the music from Titanic. In short, I am no longer the young man who was once his friend. I'm just a competitor for him.

(which of course is rich stuff coming from someone who takes great pains in not mentioning any of the composers he cribs from on his official releases; he only talks about this with an obscure french interviewer from a hardly-read magazine; one wonders why?)

The questions made hare some of the most intellectually dishonest I've ever read. Horner's answers are somehow on the same line, even though one cannot do much when having an ass-kisser in front of him.

[publicist 4,643]

The most absurd thing is this whole 'art of citation' notion that only europeans understand. In Germany, there were several high-ranking politicians axed in the last two years for plagiarizing and even bad quotation practice in their master thesis' - it was seen as intellectually dishonest to claim a doctor title clearly based on the intellectual work of others. While i somehow understand that Horner adores Prokoviev et al. and loves to draw from music history i still think it is fishy to assume that americans are too dumb to notice and then serving them all those more or less broad citations as JAMES HORNER score. How can one see that as honest...honestly.

Horner did talk a lot to Leprêtre though, about the whole TITANIC/ZORRO/DEEP IMPACT phase and sometimes you understand what he is getting at, i. e. about the fine line of getting his own way and still giving producers what they want, working with Spielberg (he describes this as 'waiting in the wings' for the day he can inherit Williams' throne).

[crocodile 7,984]

Interesting find, pube. Thanks for sharing.

Karol

[Incanus 5,713]

Horner has been always a wee bit arrogant when it comes to colleagues. I remember how he ridiculed Gabriel Yared in a Film Music Magazine interview a good while back for not understanding how to score a modern epic like Troy and thought it a good move that he was called to replace him. Yared's score and its quality or suitability aside I find such remarks bad form from Horner.

[crocodile 7,984]

Troy commments were not completely without merit, though. As great and memorable the music is, I doubt it would have served the film very well. Besides, he didn't really bash Yared as such, more of a fact he was misdirected by the director and subsequently delivered a monstrosity of a score. That's how I read it.

Still, his behaviour was a bit unprofessional. But then again so was Yared's.

Karol

[Incanus 5,713]

Troy commments were not completely without merit, though. As great and memorable the music is, I doubt it would have served the film very well. Besides, he didn't really bash Yared as such, more of a fact he was misdirected by the director and subsequently delivered a monstrosity of a score. That's how I read it.

Still, his behaviour was a bit unprofessional. But then again so was Yared's.

Karol

Yeah that's true. But Yared's comments were born out of indignation and hurt feelings. He unfortunately didn't remember to be too diplomatic either. Horner was just being his regular self though.

In comparison Jerry Goldsmith's score rejections were a silent affair (as far as I know). E.g. Donner's replacement of Timeline didn't register above a few discussions on the internet. It was a similar case of wrong directions from Donner, which resulted in a score that wasn't what he wanted after all. Sadly Jerry didn't have time or energy to write a new one.

[crocodile 7,984]

Horner has definitely mellowed over the years. He even spoke warmly of John Williams and Michael Giacchino (he described Up score as sweet).

Karol

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

One of Horner's *ahem* 'inspirations' for ALIENS?

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

Jerry's Borg theme from First Contact is lifted straight out of Wozzeck!

Didn't know where else to make this startling revelation.

[Muad'Dib 1,801]

I know this may be a silly question in a beaten to death subject, but I was wondering if it has ever been thought that Horner is pulling some kind of intellectual association with his borrowings. For example, the fact that he quotes Prokoviev's Battle on the Ice from Alexander Nevsky when the film is also mimicking the shots of said battle makes a lot of sense. I'm not saying I fully justify it, but I keep thinking if there's something deeper behind his controversial technique or if it's just all surface.

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

He's said something like that himself, hasn't he? That he wants to make historical associations because he is a hardcore musicologist.

[Muad'Dib 1,801]

Interesting. Does anyone agree with him?

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

"I am a musicologist, a doctor of music. Therefore I listened to, studied and analysed a lot of music. I also enjoy metaphors, the art of quoting and of cycles. The harmonic draft of the Willow score, and most particularly its spiritual side, came from such a cycle, from such mythology and music history that I was taught, and that I myself convey with my own emotions and compositions."

"For Willow The Sorcerer, my musicological discourse is again based upon opposition and what it represents: prophecy vs. darkness. Should the picture have given me the opportunity, I would have willingly integrated the chorale section that sings Confutatis Maledictus to emphasize on this notion of duel."

"George Lucas wanted a concise theme that was spontaneous and lyrical, which is Schumann's own definition of the Rhine's mythology. Diverting a typical 19^th Century German harmony, combining heroism and spirituality, and transposing them into a heroic-fantasy context was for me the ideal accompaniment for the adventures of these little characters."

"Along with the scenario, the score for Willow appeared to me as a work that must call upon the history of music, the "root" to create the necessary inspiration for the movie. It represents one of my constant claims and, in this specific sense, Willow is to me one of the most relevant balances between concert and cinema."

[Incanus 5,713]

Well that kind of intellectualization makes it alright. As long as the composer himself can stand being forever an understudy of other composers and revising their works in his own works. All the power to Horner for that.

[crocodile 7,984]

What is the source for this quote?

Karol

[Incanus 5,713]

What is the source for this quote?

Karol

Right from the Shark's mouth!

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

What is the source for this quote?

Karol

http://jameshorner-filmmusic.com/willow-between-quotes/

[Incanus 5,713]

I just hope he doesn't approach all his projects with this "scholarly" attitude.

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

I like Jimmy and his music but... that level of intellectualization makes me a bit sleepy.

I refer you all to Incanus' excellent earlier post about JW's recent interview, and his avoidance of such an academic mindset when crafting music to fit a story.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

If that's what a DMus or PhD does to your brain, then frankly I don't want one.

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

I mean I can appreciate the novelty of his desire to place scores within an historical context, and uphold the associations of certain musical gestures/ideas, but... why?

[Muad'Dib 1,801]

I think it goes something along the lines of what he said in the interview: Validating film music by... quoting academic music?

I don't know, it's confusing...

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

I mean I can appreciate the novelty of his desire to place scores within an historical context, and uphold the associations of certain musical gestures/ideas, but... why?

To show off how clever he is?

[Faleel 5,340]

Becaus ehe wants to be like the old composers were really just arrangers of Classical music for film (According to Rozsa)?

[publicist 4,643]

I linked to this stuff ages ago and it still sounds like rubbish...at least if i actually match Horner's words with his modus operandi demonstrated by dozens of his very long releases. WILLOW is grand and highly ambitious but quoting yourself and others very open and notorically for 35 years without giving them credit (or indeed yourself) or even hinting at them while you are at the same time lamenting the musical illiteracy of Hollywood and its audience - isn't that sneaky if not fraudulous?

If the standard of Horner's work would always approach WILLOW excellence all of this would be easier to take but alas...

[crocodile 7,984]

If all Horner was ever did was just adapting classics, then we wouldn't be able to tell what Horner sounds like. Which is not the case.

It's an approach as valid as any. No more annoying than any Hollywood scoring cliches, to be honest.

Karol

[Incanus 5,713]

If all Horner was ever did was just adapting classics, then we wouldn't be able to tell what Horner sounds like. Which is not the case.

It's an approach as valid as any. No more annoying than any Hollywood scoring cliches, to be honest.

Karol

Undeniably Horner has a voice of his own yes. But I seem to find his "scholarly" practices extremely annoying at this point but what can you do. And there are some kernels of wheat among the chaff.

[publicist 4,643]

If all Horner was ever did was just adapting classics, then we wouldn't be able to tell what Horner sounds like. Which is not the case.

It's an approach as valid as any. No more annoying than any Hollywood scoring cliches, to be honest.

Which approach? In reality this approach often amounts to repeating the same formula again and again, The application of the same to different pictures is the problem, not the approach to incorporate music history.

[crocodile 7,984]

Have you noticed that this kind if repetition is only looked down on in music world. Doesn't seem to be a problem with other artforms. Nobody seems to mind that Vermeer did the same paining over agaib throughout his career and Wes Anderson uses the same approach for pretty much every story. Same goes for sculpture and architecture. And yet it is only music thst sparks controversy.

It's not a big deal for me, really. More of a curiosity.

Karol

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Personal style is often mistaken for lack of inspiration.