The End of JW's Golden Age

[Naïve Old Fart 9,521]

Golden age: 1974 - 1982,

Silver age: 1983 - 1988,

Bronze age: 1989 - present, with some excellent late - flowering classics, such as "Minority Report", and "POA".

JW's truly great time ended with "The Accidental Tourist". Period.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Williams' entire career has been "golden", and as far as I'm concerned, as good as he's been in earlier stages of artistic development, his writing has only gotten better.

I'm inclined to disagree. His writing is more ornamentation now than music. To me that's a process that is a function of time rather than artistry.

The core of his music is much weaker than it used to be, now often covered up with the said meaningless ornaments. Which is I think why it causes listeners to throw around words like "auto-pilot" and "hollow." The youthful spark and the daring energy are gone, replaced by rules and the illusion of complexity.

That said he's certainly the best, even today, but relative to his biggest competitor, himself, he's been stronger.

P.S. Really enjoying Umeå4ever!

No disrespect, but I disagree completely with your post

There are of course exceptions....Memoirs of a Geisha for example is a score that is beautiful in core, and it's also very elegantly written with a "less is more" approach. Same goes for Prisoner of Azkaban. The ornamentation is there only when necessary, and as a result it seems almost deceptively simple. You genuinely see that the artist was "bashing his brains" out against a desk to come up with music that says so much with so little.

Compare this with Revenge of the Sith or War of the Worlds or [especially] Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, where you genuinely see the craftsman gave himself carpal tunnel writing out little notes here and there and everywhere to cover up weak ideas. It's like weak soup covered up with excess spice, poor photography and film covered up with excess processing and lens flares, poor writing deceptively covered up with flowery language.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I think John had an easy time with ROTS, he just photocopied the music of Star Wars and wrote some afterthought music for the rest. I actually watched about 15 minutes of Revenge of the Sith the other night on TNT or something, what a trainwreck, the movie gets worse and worse with each viewing and even John at his best cannot save it.

[Jay 37,355]

The prequels have not held up well. When I saw them I was 19, 22, and 25 respectively. I liked TPM well enough (though was HUGELY disappointed from my admittedly HIGH expectations), liked AOTC actually more, and never liked ROTS.

However when I see them now, I just think there are all completely terrible. Especially the dialogue, then the broad story strokes, then the way they were shot and edited. By ROTS it was basically a CGI movie with actors imposed over the front. Individual scenes can be fun and the music is great but..... just not well-made films at all.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

The most surprising thing is the effects don't hold up and this is INDUSTRIAL LIGHT AND MAGIC with full resources.

while I want to blame Lucas completely I know I can't. I've seen the actors in other films and they can be good including Haydenson who is watchable outside of Star Wars Prequels.

[Jeff 10]

Is there a contest for how many threads we can pollute with prequel-bashing?

[Jay 37,355]

Hayden Christensen was really good in Shattered Glass. Haven't seen him in too much else

Yea, the special effects really don't hold up for some reason.

[Jeff 10]

I think the reason the effects may appear not to hold up is because they pushed the envelope of what was possible at the time, similar to Star Wars which had issues with the speeder, Death Star explosion, and some of the characters in the Cantina, etc. I think the reason 1977 effects may seem to hold up better is because they are tangible objects, which our brains naturally accept more readily as reality than they do animated images.

[Jay 37,355]

Totally.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Is there a contest for how many threads we can pollute with prequel-bashing?

I'm really not bashing the prequels so much as it's the last film I saw with John Williams music. It's quite fresh in my memory. Besides everyone here knows I dislike the last two prequels immensely and am not overly fond of John's recent musical efforts ( I still think KOTCS is a better score than film).

regardless, he may well bring stellar efforts with War Horse and Tintin, his Golden age lives on, hell I was wrong in one of my previous posts, his music will live on long after his name.

[Jeff 10]

I still think it's commendable in both cases that Lucas tried to push the envelope. If it weren't for his works, effects wouldn't be nearly what they are today. And some visuals in the prequels are simply stunning. Most of it is believable.

[Jay 37,355]

The other big difference is that in the OT, the effects were used to enhance the story. With the PT, it sometimes feels like he created scenes to specifically showcase some type of special effect. The OT special effects are more in the background and "just there", the PT special effects are in your face and on display all the time.

[Jeff 10]

Good point. I guess at the very least, the prequels were a "practice canvas" for ILM and other effects artists.

[Quintus 5,399]

Unwittingly, yes.

Even more evidence for the case against Lucas as sole and primary incompetent on the production.

[gkgyver 1,645]

For me, Williams is already retired.

To me, he's not a film composer anymore, not since 2006.

He's a composer whose music I look forward to very much. I couldn't care less about the films it is superimposed on.

[Quintus 5,399]

For me, Williams is already retired.

To me, he's not a film composer anymore, not since 2006.

He's a composer whose music I look forward to very much.

I pretty much agree with that sentiment.

But I haven't given up on the old pro; unlike yourself. Which isn't a dig at you.

[gkgyver 1,645]

That's why it was probably foolish all along to assume Williams would do another Harry Potter film.

He doesn't need any challenges anymore, and he certainly doesn't need to elevate some average fantasy flick at his age.

He's encapsuled in two scores the entire series of seven films. Too bad noone noticed.

[Quintus 5,399]

Oh but they soooooooo did. Here.

[gkgyver 1,645]

Do we have a user named Frenchman0815?

Or TVGuy_NH?

[tharpdevenport 4]

Right before "Shindler's List" would have been a good semi-retirement, that way maybe Horner or Goldsmith would have been shoe-ins.

I say semi, 'cause sure as hell Lucas and Speilberg would have done everything in their power, short of kidnapping him, to get him for the SW prequels, and the blasphemous Indy 4.

Who was being considered for "Harry Potter [1]" back then? I seem to recall Horner saying he was, but wasn't interested.

[Datameister 2,042]

Horner would have been a natural choice...I dunno if he actually was in the running, but I'd be interested in hearing his take on those films. Not that it'd be worth losing Williams' contributions to the franchise, but in some parallel universe where we can have both, it'd be interesting to hear how he handled it.

[Josh500 1,615]

Horner would have been a natural choice...

I don't see that. Why would Horner have been the natural choice, of all people?

[crocodile 8,012]

He's done a fair share of fantasy scores and, arguably, these are his best works. Many of them are real classics.

But then again he already turned down Harry Potter, didn't he?

Karol

[Josh500 1,615]

Before I think of Horner, I would have thought of Alan Silvestri, Danny Elfman, Bruce Broughton...

Right before "Shindler's List" would have been a good semi-retirement, that way maybe Horner or Goldsmith would have been shoe-ins.

Thank God that didn't happen. Thank God.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

But Horner had worked with Columbus before, AND was a far more well known composer then Silvestri, Elfman etc...

[publicist 4,643]

Horner was asked for HP and LOTR and turned both down because he considered them not 'important' enough - he said as much in an interview for BEAUTIFUL MIND. To say composers like Silvestri are more á propos is ridiculous, because they didn't seek for composers with experience in shallow fantasy films, but with a certain weight and prestige...which Horner has considerably more of...justified or not.

[Josh500 1,615]

I wonder if James Horner regretted not having done HP or LOTR.

Not every composer has the ability to pick the best projects...

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Titanic made Horner a multi milionair, i dont think he has a lot of regrets about the projects he chooses.

Im sure its his own choice not to get involved in big summer blockbusters much anymore.

[Josh500 1,615]

Well, except that James Horner is now to James Cameron what John Williams is to Steven Spielberg...

[publicist 4,643]

Well, except that James Horner is now to James Cameron what John Williams is to Steven Spielberg...

Only a tad more opportunistic in his musical approach.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Hardly.

[Ollie 1,059]

I think a Goldsmith scored Schindler's List would have been superb.

While Goldsmith had praise for Williams' score he also said it was a film he wished he could have scored.

Back to prequels, Anakin's back story and the fall of the Republic just isn't an interesting story to be told. Lucas was originally wise to begin with Star Wars in 1977.

[gkgyver 1,645]

Well, except that James Horner is now to James Cameron what John Williams is to Steven Spielberg...

Not even close.

And that's only taking into consideration the pure number of movies they did in comparison.

[tharpdevenport 4]

Poledouris would have also made an excellent choice for "Schindler's List".

Horner didn't think they were "important"? So, can somebody clue me in to how "The Spiderwick Crhonicles" or the "Karate Kid" revisioning are "important"? Boy, he just never stops with these little comments.

[Ollie 1,059]

Part of me wishes Poledouris didn't pass on scoring Dances With Wolves.

[tharpdevenport 4]

If he hadn't passed on "Open Range", too, we might have gotten to hear potentially what he would have done. Shame.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I'm fine with Kamen's score.

[Josh500 1,615]

Well, except that James Horner is now to James Cameron what John Williams is to Steven Spielberg...

Not even close.

And that's only taking into consideration the pure number of movies they did in comparison.

Go on. What else?

The number of movies, and then what else?

[Jeff 10]

Back to prequels, Anakin's back story and the fall of the Republic just isn't an interesting story to be told. Lucas was originally wise to begin with Star Wars in 1977.

I couldn't disagree more. I think watching why and how a person "falls from grace" is just as interesting and worthwhile, if not moreso, than seeing them redeemed. It's an exploration of the age-old question - why do good people go bad?

[gkgyver 1,645]

Well, except that James Horner is now to James Cameron what John Williams is to Steven Spielberg...

Not even close.

And that's only taking into consideration the pure number of movies they did in comparison.

Go on. What else?

The number of movies, and then what else?

Quality, popularity, longevity, public attention, artistic integrity ...

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Part of me wishes Poledouris didn't pass on scoring Dances With Wolves.

93.6% of me is glad that he did. The best of Barry's later scores.

[Josh500 1,615]

Well, except that James Horner is now to James Cameron what John Williams is to Steven Spielberg...

Not even close.

And that's only taking into consideration the pure number of movies they did in comparison.

Go on. What else?

The number of movies, and then what else?

Quality, popularity, longevity, public attention, artistic integrity ...

Well, you are right, but I didn't compare Horner's music to Williams' music. I said the relationships are somewhat similar (similar, mind, not exactly the same).

Danny Elfman and Tim Burton, Bernard Herrmann and Alfred Hitchcock, Henry Mancini and Blake Edwards would be in the same category, as well.

[Wojo 2,453]

Analogies as the one you created imply a stronger relationship than just "somewhat similar." Don't you remember your SAT?

Horner scored three Cameron films -- Aliens, Titanic, and Avatar -- but only one has themes that really embedded themselves into public memory (thank you, Celine).

However, the number of Spielberg movies scored by Williams is so large, science doesn't have a word for it, and everyone here can hum all of them in their entirety, except Thor, who only hums the best parts.

Spielberg only slept with one other composer while wearing the fuzzy director slippers, while Cameron experimented with both Alan Silvestri and Brad Fiedel.

[Ollie 1,059]

Part of me wishes Poledouris didn't pass on scoring Dances With Wolves.

93.6% of me is glad that he did. The best of Barry's later scores.

Oh don't get me wrong, I love Barry's score but after hearing Lonesome Dove I wonder what if?????

[Josh500 1,615]

Analogies as the one you created imply a stronger relationship than just "somewhat similar." Don't you remember your SAT?

Horner scored three Cameron films -- Aliens, Titanic, and Avatar -- but only one has themes that really embedded themselves into public memory (thank you, Celine).

However, the number of Spielberg movies scored by Williams is so large, science doesn't have a word for it, and everyone here can hum all of them in their entirety, except Thor, who only hums the best parts.

Spielberg only slept with one other composer while wearing the fuzzy director slippers, while Cameron experimented with both Alan Silvestri and Brad Fiedel.

Dude, you're way overthinking it.

All I said (and meant) was that it seems like Horner will be scoring the next couple of James Cameron movies...

[Ollie 1,059]

10 years from now when Cameron decides to make his next film.

[Josh500 1,615]

Hmmmm, I understand Cameron is working on the script of Avatar 2 at the moment...

But who knows when we will actually see it on the big screen. I am hoping 2014 (but perhaps that is too optimistic).

[pixie_twinkle 48]

1993. Beyond then he has come up with the occasional knock-out score (Harry Potter mainly), but most of his scores seem a little lazy: functional for the movie without being particularly artistic on their own merits. That said, I'm really looking forward to Tintin. If any project screams "classic Williams thematic score" then it has to be an animated Tintin movie!

[gkgyver 1,645]

Well, except that James Horner is now to James Cameron what John Williams is to Steven Spielberg...

Not even close.

And that's only taking into consideration the pure number of movies they did in comparison.

Go on. What else?

The number of movies, and then what else?

Quality, popularity, longevity, public attention, artistic integrity ...

Well, you are right, but I didn't compare Horner's music to Williams' music. I said the relationships are somewhat similar (similar, mind, not exactly the same).

Danny Elfman and Tim Burton, Bernard Herrmann and Alfred Hitchcock, Henry Mancini and Blake Edwards would be in the same category, as well.

Maybe it's close to the Elfman/Burton thing, but even that is pushing it.

Out of the three Horner scored Camerons, Aliens, Titanic, Avatar, the last one already lost its zing (and its main theme is partially based on Titanic as well).

[Uni 306]

I'm in late, as usual.

I'm with Steef. JW Golden Age: 1975-1984. This is not to say he stopped writing good scores after 1984; but during those ten years, he never really missed the target. I could go with the Silver Age idea, I suppose (maybe '85 to '93). Bronze since then.

I'm another one who doesn't see what his retirement has to do with his "Golden Age." I understand what you're asking; I just don't see the point. I don't care what kind of scores he's written in these latter years (though I agree with what folks were saying about complexity overwhelming core, style over substance). I'll take whatever he gives us. Thing is, even if a score overall isn't that great, I'd hate to lose certain great themes that have emerged from mediocre scores--"Duel of the Fates" from TPM, for instance.

Oh, and on that subject. . . .

The prequels have not held up well. When I saw them I was 19, 22, and 25 respectively. I liked TPM well enough (though was HUGELY disappointed from my admittedly HIGH expectations), liked AOTC actually more, and never liked ROTS.

However when I see them now, I just think there are all completely terrible. Especially the dialogue, then the broad story strokes, then the way they were shot and edited. By ROTS it was basically a CGI movie with actors imposed over the front. Individual scenes can be fun and the music is great but..... just not well-made films at all.

Let's talk more about THIS!!! It's like, we NEVER get to any more!

I'm kidding, of course. However, I really can't let this one slip by:

I couldn't disagree more. I think watching why and how a person "falls from grace" is just as interesting and worthwhile, if not moreso, than seeing them redeemed. It's an exploration of the age-old question - why do good people go bad?

Absolutely. It's every bit as interesting and worthwhile. It makes for a fascinating story--in the hands of a competent storyteller. No story, no legend, not the myths of ancient Greece nor the epics of the ages since, could survive what Lucas did to the prequels. He turned a compelling foundational storyline and turned it into a turd, just so he could show off his SPFX. Epic fail, any way you look at it.

- Uni